Playing Stealth Doesn't Pay

Rogue_Ghost · June 2018

Let me start off by stating that I am, obviously a fan of ESO and enjoy the world they have created a great deal. What is extremely frustrating, however, is that there seems to be absolutely no payoff when it comes to playing a character who specializes in stealth.

I have a Khajiit Thief/Assassin whom I have diligently worked up to CP 160 recently. The reason anyone who enjoys playing a stealthy character is, in general, because they love the thrill of the hunt and being able to exploit weaknesses/strike from nowhere to quickly get the upper hand in battles. It's very empowering when it works... but sadly, this seems to be such a rare instance that I am extremely close to retiring this character because they are almost completely useless when it comes to larger battles. This has been something I've learned to deal with - for the most part - and I'll attach myself to larger groups when I am trying to take on a larger fight, or just wait in the area until another group arrives and then jump into the fray with them as a bonus member.

There are two things about this that I find endlessly frustrating -

In open world battles - such as world bosses and such - my stealth character is about as useful as a bucket of apples. I dance around a bit, fling a few arrows, move in to get a few good strikes in when I can - run out of stamina - and then a single shot hits me (sometimes two, if I am lucky) and I find myself laying on the ground. And, because everyone else is quite busy dealing with the threat, there is little to no chance I am getting back into the fight without using a soul gem. But, because this happens so often, that is only useful for so long before I run out of gems.
Instead of my character exploiting weaknesses and striking for power/critical damage - he instead turns out being the weakest part of the team.

This gets even worse when I am doing a story mission and find myself on my own completely.

Last night it took me nearly three hours to fight K'Tora as part of the Summerset story line. This battle is nearly ALL magic-based attacks that do an unhealthy amount of damage very quickly. I was about to throw my hands up completely but was able to look up some assistance from other sources online with tips. Just like with larger battles in the world, my stealth character was over-matched and all of those perks one receives by being stealthy meant absolutely nothing. The moment I made my first strike, I was out of my league and on extremely borrowed time.

Of course - this seems to be a problem only stealth-minded players have. I see mages and warriors working on large battles all the time with what seems to be a limited amount of effort. What would have been an impossible task for my character seems to be just a walk in the park for those who are able to just run headlong into the fray without worrying about being swatted down like a fleshfly...

I am obviously invested in my character, but last night was the first time I genuinely thought about retiring him and opting for a Warden build instead. But, then I lose the play-style I enjoy and I am simply doing it because it seems to be the only way to succeed in the game.

Anyway - I hope the DEVS revisit the stealth build sometime soon and build in mechanics that make this play style more beneficial and enjoyable.

GrumpyDuckling · June 2018

My main questing character is a PVE stealthy Khajiit Assassin/Thief Nightblade, so if you're open to suggestions, I've got some survival tips and skills worth considering. The ones I personally use are in bold:

- 7 well-fitted on armor (allows me to roll dodge often to avoid projectiles)
- Blood Craze (dual wield dot that heals you every two seconds)
- Bloodthirst (dual wield attack that heals you on the last hit of the skill)
- Rend (beautiful dual wield ultimate that gets you a lot of healing back and lasts 16 seconds)
- Draining Shot (bow attack that will stun an enemy and heal you)
- Resolving Vigor (nice heal over time but requires you to PVP for a bit to get it)
- Reaper's Mark (killing a target will heal you for 60% of your max health)
- Rally (nice 2H skill that heals every 2 seconds and offers a burst heal on reactivation)
- Blade Cloak (dual wield skill that lets you take less AOE damage)

Rogue_Ghost · June 2018

Thank you for the suggestions! I will take a look at my build and see if making such adjustments would be useful.

That said, it still feels that stealth - in general - is a rather useless mechanic when it comes to larger battles. Especially since my character seems to be deathly allergic to any type of magic attacks. If the battle is magic intensive - I am normally in for a VERY long battle ahead of me.

GrumpyDuckling · June 2018

Rogue_Ghost wrote: »

Thank you for the suggestions! I will take a look at my build and see if making such adjustments would be useful.

That said, it still feels that stealth - in general - is a rather useless mechanic when it comes to larger battles. Especially since my character seems to be deathly allergic to any type of magic attacks. If the battle is magic intensive - I am normally in for a VERY long battle ahead of me.

Yeah, magic is tough. That's one of the main reasons I use 7 well-fitted on my armor. You can time their projectile attacks and roll dodge.

If it's a particularly tough mage, then I'll get in close, apply Blood Craze and Rend (the ultimate), and I'll attack from a distance with the bow, while roll-dodging and getting heals back. Another skill I forgot to mention is Leeching Strikes. It pairs well with bow light attacks and heals you.

evoniee · June 2018

never use stealth gameplay since it wasting time to kill group of enemy. stealthy only help newbies to get easy damage on early step of this game

RavenSworn · June 2018

If I may chime in, when I was levelling my nb as a stealth character, usually when I faced a group of mobs, I target down the weakest one first which usually means ironically, the mages or the casters.

In a group / dungeon setting however, I change my playstyle slightly. I slot in a few more aoe skills like steel tornado or power extraction. I make sure my opener is a strike from stealth and I ensure I am more aware of the surroundings. Things like looking around while light weaving steel tornado allows me to 'finish' any low health enemies with Killers blade.

If the boss targets me, a cloak and dodge roll to the tank usually saves me as it allows the tank to taunt back the boss.

One of the problems with stealth is that most players don't know how to handle it in pvp, which leads to changes upon changes to the stealth mechanic in eso. It sucks but it is what it is and until players realize that there are more counters to stealth than to other forms of gameplay and until the devs fix the problems that cloak has, it's hard to continually play stealth in pve settings.

Rogue_Ghost · June 2018

evoniee wrote: »

never use stealth gameplay since it wasting time to kill group of enemy. stealthy only help newbies to get easy damage on early step of this game

While I can understand the thought process there, it seems to be inherently false. While yes, starting off the game, having the stealth mechanics did assist - even mages who had just started in he same area already seemed to have the upper hand in battles. And warriors? I started a warrior character that I switch to from time to time, but only because it frees me completely from having to consider the battle at hand and just charge right in with little to no care because they absorb so much damage.

Essentially, there shouldn't be such a handicap when it comes to playing stealth which effectively turns your character into nothing more than a dodge-rolling/easy target.

RavenSworn wrote: »

If I may chime in, when I was levelling my nb as a stealth character, usually when I faced a group of mobs, I target down the weakest one first which usually means ironically, the mages or the casters.

Thank you for chiming in, and I typically agree. On the flip side though, the weakest member of a large group of players is - more times than not - the rogue-like/stealth player. Like you mentioned a little later, if the boss focuses in on your character during one of these fights, it suddenly becomes a scene where the rogue is running around comically trying to get away while praying that someone takes the heat off of them as soon as possible.

It just feels more than a little disheartening as a character when your first thought is - "Well, guess I'll wait around until more people show up" - or - "Sorry guys, I can only do so much here." - when it should feel like you are able to contribute in a more effective way.

fred4 · June 2018

Have been playing for 3 years. Cloak, to me, is a PvP skill. The only reason I slot it in PvE is to skip fights entirely, e.g. to run to the skyshard at the bottom of a delve and back out again. It sounds like you're talking about PvE. If you're soloing stuff, the problem with Cloak is, if you do it a few times in succession, it tends to cancel the fight.

You don't need to switch to a warden to make your character tanky. It's just that most skills and passives of stamina nightblades are geared towards aggression, so you have to think outside your class for defense. Priority 1: PvP some - run along with a zerg and take some keeps - and get Vigor. Basically every solo stamina build needs Vigor or Rally or both. Wear heavy armor, and get tanky, or get someone to craft you Fortified Brass in medium. Use Troll King or Pirate Skeleton or Blood Spawn, or simply 1x Pirate Skeleton and 1x Mighty Chudan. Layer several off-healing skills mentioned by Grumpy Duckling. Use the Soul Siphon ulti on your off bar as an emergency heal. Veil of Blades / Bolstering Darkness is also good. Make sure to include a shadow ability in your rotation to avail of the shadow passive armor buff, for example from Surprise Attack. You could also use the new Psijic spammable, the stamina version of which includes a heal. Or do as I do, and use Shrouded Daggers (from dual-wield), which allows you to hit 3 targets while staying at medium range, if need be. Not saying to do all of these things. Just examples.

Everstorm · June 2018

My main is a bosmer stamblade. She can sneak with the best of them, and solo most world bosses. What she can not do is both of those things using the same sets. When sneaking it's Night Mother + Night Terror. When doing world bosses it's heavy Bahraha's Curse + 7th Legion + Pirate Skeleton (25k hps).
Don't try to do everything with just one setup, I tried that too early on, it won't work and it's just frustrating. If you're on PC get the Dressroom add on to easily switch sets.

GrumpyDuckling · June 2018

fred4 wrote: »

Have been playing for 3 years. Cloak, to me, is a PvP skill. The only reason I slot it in PvE is to skip fights entirely, e.g. to run to the skyshard at the bottom of a delve and back out again. It sounds like you're talking about PvE. If you're soloing stuff, the problem with Cloak is, if you do it a few times in succession, it tends to cancel the fight.

You don't need to switch to a warden to make your character tanky. It's just that most skills and passives of stamina nightblades are geared towards aggression, so you have to think outside your class for defense. Priority 1: PvP some - run along with a zerg and take some keeps - and get Vigor. Basically every solo stamina build needs Vigor or Rally or both. Wear heavy armor, and get tanky, or get someone to craft you Fortified Brass in medium. Use Troll King or Pirate Skeleton or Blood Spawn, or simply 1x Pirate Skeleton and 1x Mighty Chudan. Layer several off-healing skills mentioned by Grumpy Duckling. Use the Soul Siphon ulti on your off bar as an emergency heal. Veil of Blades / Bolstering Darkness is also good. Make sure to include a shadow ability in your rotation to avail of the shadow passive armor buff, for example from Surprise Attack. You could also use the new Psijic spammable, the stamina version of which includes a heal. Or do as I do, and use Shrouded Daggers (from dual-wield), which allows you to hit 3 targets while staying at medium range, if need be. Not saying to do all of these things. Just examples.

Cloak might actually be useful to the OP in PVE for tougher fights when there are multiple allies (such as World Bosses). If the boss turns aggro, cloaking while kiting is a pretty solid way to get it off your squishy build and hope it finds a less squishy one. Ideally someone would be taunting, but that's not always the case.

BlackSparrow · June 2018

I adore my stealthy characters, but it's a style you play more for the love of it than its effectiveness. It's fun and satisfying to me to sneak into a group of mobs and one-shot takedown their healer before they know what hit them... but anything higher than trash mobs won't be one-shot. Bosses aren't even susceptible to the Blade of Woe. It's understandable why they did it that way (no single build should be that OP), but it does mean you have to find other tactics to survive.

I just had the K'Tora fight on my level 10 stamblade, and yeah, it was a doozy without the right skills. Something like Rend and a well-placed Hunter's Mark can really make or break a fight like that. Stamblade in particular is a class that you need to know how to play it to do so effectively. Once you do, stamblades can be an absolute blender of DPS... throw your mobs at them and watch them puree. When you're looking at world boss fights and dungeons, that's where they typically belong: not in the stealth category, but as DPS. Get your DPS up (but in a way where you have some defense and survivability) and you'll find that this type of character does have a place in those group fights.

WhiteNoiseMaker · June 2018

Speaking as a old school D&D rogue/thief/bard fan, I understand. What I discovered is that ESO Stealth is more for "Shadowrun" style of missions, where you don't want to be seen at all, avoiding combat.

If you have Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, there are some good ways of playing stealth in missions thought. Blade of Woe especially works well in some fast berserk Sithis builds, and can be used on anything except bosses.

For contributing in open world or SHTF open combat, listen to the advice some of the folks here have suggested. It's all out offense with a alternate armor set that you keep in your inventory and quick swap out with an add-on. It takes a bit of thinking outside your comfort zone, but it's still fun and possible to play the thief/rogue in ESO.

fred4 · June 2018

Everstorm wrote: »

My main is a bosmer stamblade. She can sneak with the best of them, and solo most world bosses. What she can not do is both of those things using the same sets. When sneaking it's Night Mother + Night Terror. When doing world bosses it's heavy Bahraha's Curse + 7th Legion + Pirate Skeleton (25k hps).
Don't try to do everything with just one setup, I tried that too early on, it won't work and it's just frustrating. If you're on PC get the Dressroom add on to easily switch sets.

Listen to this guy / girl. That is an extremely tanky setup that will still do damage. 7th Legion and Pirate Skeleton are both staples for tanky PvP builds. I forgot about Bahraha's. It is superb for soloing in PvE. Especially if you have the aggro of lots of mobs, and manage to keep them on top of the Bahraha proc, the healing is off the charts, plus it protects you some from AOE damage.

fred4 · June 2018

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Stamblade in particular is a class that you need to know how to play it to do so effectively. Once you do, stamblades can be an absolute blender of DPS... throw your mobs at them and watch them puree.

This!

There is a place called Spellscar, in Craglorn, where people level their new characters. It is full of undead mobs, which are easy to kill and don't really threaten a CP750 character, but which are a notch above the normal overland mobs. Stamblade absolutely slays, there, and I envy people who have their rotation down when I'm levelling something else. Don't throw your character away!

Nestor · June 2018

Rogue_Ghost wrote: »

That said, it still feels that stealth - in general - is a rather useless mechanic when it comes to larger battles. Especially since my character seems to be deathly allergic to any type of magic attacks.

Stealth characters are awesome for burst openers, attacks from Stealth from behind a mob gives a huge damage bonus. Pretty much a one shot on most mobs, add in the Flanking set and your one shotting any normal mov and probably half the health of any 120K delve boss.

Also you should build for crits, as those help the stealth attacks even more. More so mu Khajiit Stamblade is a wrecking machine. Get yourself a set of Hundings 5 piece, another 5 piece set the supports the way you play, maybe Flanking maybe something else and a monster set that helps you. My khajiit blade does the most dps of all my characters with a basic non animation canceling rotation.

Forget the name of the skill but DW skill that fires a dagger and bounces off two other targets is my.main skill and usually takes the mobs out before they can damage me.

As for magic attacks, you are blocking or dodging or interupting them, right? No build other than a tank can absorb damage without avoiding or mitigating it. And even then, tanks are at least blocking.

fred4 · June 2018

Nestor wrote: »

Forget the name of the skill but DW skill that fires a dagger and bounces off two other targets is my.main skill and usually takes the mobs out before they can damage me.

Shrouded Daggers.

As for magic attacks, you are blocking or dodging or interupting them, right? No build other than a tank can absorb damage without avoiding or mitigating it. And even then, tanks are at least blocking.

Well, anyone with 1-Hand and Shield - maybe on the off bar - can heal from ranged (magic) attacks with Absorb Magic or reflect projectiles with the ult.

DeadlyRecluse · June 2018

Stealth doesn't really have a huge role in PvE in this game, for better or for worse.

It's useful for speedy questing at low levels, and for stealing/assassinating peeps, but not really for those sustained fights you mention, like world bosses.

It's super useful in PvP, though.

Rogue_Ghost · June 2018

Thank you, everyone, for the additional insight and suggestions. I will review the build I have currently and look for adjustments where I can further exploit critical attacks as much as possible. I am sure there are some adjustments there that I can make which I just haven't taken the time to play with yet.

That said, it does still sound like there are many stealth players whom have experienced similar frustration because, even at higher levels/veteran events, the character seems to be a rather weak player in the overall advancement of the team. (I don't dabble much in PvP as I enjoy the story moreso than contests where it often comes down to who has the most healing potions.)

The level of empowerment as a stealthy character feels like it isn't there at all - when doing larger boss battles or magic intensive fights. My character should feel like he has the upper-hand when he successfully positions himself in the perfect spot to strike - not feel as it he has one solid hit and then it's all about trying to stay the hell away from everything.

Everstorm · June 2018

It's personal of course but I just disagree with your view of a stealthy fighter. There is no place for an assassin on a crowded battlefield. That's the arena of the soldiers, not the spies.
ESO has plenty of content for sneaking around, including two DLCs but it's solo stuff. And once again: there is nothing stopping you from being both a soldier and a spy, it's all in the gear and skills.

WatchYourSixx · June 2018

@op if stealth is your game, play into it. A khajiit nightblade gains about 20% damage by striking from stealth. They also have a skill that makes you go invisible for 2.5 seconds and guarantees the next strike is a critical hit.

For overland, if you get blade of woe from the dark brotherhood, you can instantly kill one humanoid enemy. Then use a combo of shadowy disquise and surprise attack to provide an instant crit, stun, and bonus damage coming from stealth. There are several sets you can use to fit this play style, but again once you get past a handful of mobs or creatures you can't assassinate, then you have to get creative with your skills! The above combo works well to disengage and reengage from any enemy. Using the incapacitating strike as a cheap, powerful single Target ultimate that also has a chance to play a sick ass spinning animation instead of the normal x pattern animation, youll be getting chills bc it was so awesome. Unless you don't enjoy it as much as me. Maybe that's just me...

ZOS MAKE IT ALWAYS PLAY THE SPINNING ANIMATION FOR INCAP AND MORPHS. Sorry, got on a tangent...

Anyways... If you want more information feel free to message me here or in game, @WatchYourSixx pc na. Don't let those naysayers downplay the enjoyment of the stealthy assassin. Normal trials approved! Cuz really, what CAN'T you do in a normal trial...

WatchYourSixx · June 2018

Also, from my perspective, a rogue-like character is never about being able to stand their ground like a warrior. It's always been about burst, disengage, and dodging. In PvP, people do the assassin archetype all the time. Burst from the shadows and disappear back into the shadows. Now, in a dungeon or trial, you aren't the Target's main focus so it makes sense that you stand at their backside and whack on them, or stack up if it's that kind of fight. The only thing you should worry about there is mechanics which you should care about anyways.

Rogue_Ghost · June 2018

@WatchYourSixx

I do have the Blade of Woe at my disposal and will fully admit that it is a blast to use. The XP payoff is a bit too handicapped for my liking - however - because it's such a powerful tool I can understand why it's there. And, of course, I don't expect such a powerful weapon to be that effective in a larger battle because, let's face it, it would just make the entire experience WAY too easy. BUT, I will say that it would be nice to use a portion of that power while in larger battles to do more damage.
For example, if I have jumped into the fray and connected a few strikes, drop into cloak and move away to flank, it would be nice to utilize the Blade of Woe in my next attack to quickly jump in a make another punishing blow before I need to back away and regain stamina. That may be a missed opportunity when it comes to the overall effectiveness of that weapon in open world scenarios.
I haven't had the opportunity to yet, but I do intend on revisiting my build this weekend so I can make some adjustments - especially when it comes to seeking out gear that increases my critical chances. I've slotted a few items with this effect and have already noticed what seems to be a noticeable improvement.

If anyone has suggestions on gear I should be on the lookout for, or possibly make an offer for (if it's not outrageous) - I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

firedrgn · June 2018

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Have been playing for 3 years. Cloak, to me, is a PvP skill. The only reason I slot it in PvE is to skip fights entirely, e.g. to run to the skyshard at the bottom of a delve and back out again. It sounds like you're talking about PvE. If you're soloing stuff, the problem with Cloak is, if you do it a few times in succession, it tends to cancel the fight.

You don't need to switch to a warden to make your character tanky. It's just that most skills and passives of stamina nightblades are geared towards aggression, so you have to think outside your class for defense. Priority 1: PvP some - run along with a zerg and take some keeps - and get Vigor. Basically every solo stamina build needs Vigor or Rally or both. Wear heavy armor, and get tanky, or get someone to craft you Fortified Brass in medium. Use Troll King or Pirate Skeleton or Blood Spawn, or simply 1x Pirate Skeleton and 1x Mighty Chudan. Layer several off-healing skills mentioned by Grumpy Duckling. Use the Soul Siphon ulti on your off bar as an emergency heal. Veil of Blades / Bolstering Darkness is also good. Make sure to include a shadow ability in your rotation to avail of the shadow passive armor buff, for example from Surprise Attack. You could also use the new Psijic spammable, the stamina version of which includes a heal. Or do as I do, and use Shrouded Daggers (from dual-wield), which allows you to hit 3 targets while staying at medium range, if need be. Not saying to do all of these things. Just examples.

Cloak might actually be useful to the OP in PVE for tougher fights when there are multiple allies (such as World Bosses). If the boss turns aggro, cloaking while kiting is a pretty solid way to get it off your squishy build and hope it finds a less squishy one. Ideally someone would be taunting, but that's not always the case.

Really ill have to go back and check that out . I thought ibalways got a. immune pop up with that ability and bosses

Sarjako · June 2018

Rogue_Ghost wrote: »

Let me start off by stating that I am, obviously a fan of ESO and enjoy the world they have created a great deal. What is extremely frustrating, however, is that there seems to be absolutely no payoff when it comes to playing a character who specializes in stealth.

I have a Khajiit Thief/Assassin whom I have diligently worked up to CP 160 recently. The reason anyone who enjoys playing a stealthy character is, in general, because they love the thrill of the hunt and being able to exploit weaknesses/strike from nowhere to quickly get the upper hand in battles. It's very empowering when it works... but sadly, this seems to be such a rare instance that I am extremely close to retiring this character because they are almost completely useless when it comes to larger battles. This has been something I've learned to deal with - for the most part - and I'll attach myself to larger groups when I am trying to take on a larger fight, or just wait in the area until another group arrives and then jump into the fray with them as a bonus member.

There are two things about this that I find endlessly frustrating -

In open world battles - such as world bosses and such - my stealth character is about as useful as a bucket of apples. I dance around a bit, fling a few arrows, move in to get a few good strikes in when I can - run out of stamina - and then a single shot hits me (sometimes two, if I am lucky) and I find myself laying on the ground. And, because everyone else is quite busy dealing with the threat, there is little to no chance I am getting back into the fight without using a soul gem. But, because this happens so often, that is only useful for so long before I run out of gems.
Instead of my character exploiting weaknesses and striking for power/critical damage - he instead turns out being the weakest part of the team.

This gets even worse when I am doing a story mission and find myself on my own completely.

Last night it took me nearly three hours to fight K'Tora as part of the Summerset story line. This battle is nearly ALL magic-based attacks that do an unhealthy amount of damage very quickly. I was about to throw my hands up completely but was able to look up some assistance from other sources online with tips. Just like with larger battles in the world, my stealth character was over-matched and all of those perks one receives by being stealthy meant absolutely nothing. The moment I made my first strike, I was out of my league and on extremely borrowed time.

Of course - this seems to be a problem only stealth-minded players have. I see mages and warriors working on large battles all the time with what seems to be a limited amount of effort. What would have been an impossible task for my character seems to be just a walk in the park for those who are able to just run headlong into the fray without worrying about being swatted down like a fleshfly...

I am obviously invested in my character, but last night was the first time I genuinely thought about retiring him and opting for a Warden build instead. But, then I lose the play-style I enjoy and I am simply doing it because it seems to be the only way to succeed in the game.

Anyway - I hope the DEVS revisit the stealth build sometime soon and build in mechanics that make this play style more beneficial and enjoyable.

Your level is too low. You're gunna feel like you suck till at least CP 600. Grind out the levels and dont gold-dump on gear trying to "fix" yourself. It's the CP, not you.

Rogue_Ghost · June 2018

Sarjako wrote: »

Your level is too low. You're gunna feel like you suck till at least CP 600. Grind out the levels and dont gold-dump on gear trying to "fix" yourself. It's the CP, not you.

CP600 you say? CP180+ right now... so I have a ways to go.

Although it is frustrating when I seem to be completely in over my head - I also admit that it's a nice payoff to finally figure out a routine that gets me through a tough battle. Feels like I actually earned that win - like a Demons Souls or Dark Souls battle.

There are times though, especially in magic intense battles, where my character suddenly feels like a worm on a hook - nothing more. And about as effective.

Skullstachio · June 2018

Funny story: earning Alliance points through the daily login rewards levels up assault & support skill lines a bit so really, one does not have to always PVP.