No way to free the slaves? (WARNING, SPOILERS)

RestingMurderFace · June 2018

I found the Sadrith Mora questline so depressing, but then when I discovered I could aid Eoki and kill the slavers, I was satisfied.

redshirt_49 · June 2018

Ah just keep in mind that the Argonians are little better given the chance. You know what happens after Baar Dau crashes into Vvardenfell and causes Red Mountain to devastate Morrowind? Argonians decide this is the perfect time to go pillage and murder and cause all around mayhem.

Yeah it sucks to see them treated that way, to see ANYONE treated that way...but they haven't exactly shown themselves to be of a higher moral standard given the opportunity.

AuldWolf · June 2018

I forget if I posted in this but... for this reason, I can't go to the Telvanni area any more. It's the only area I feel like that about in ESO. Considering its parallels with real world slavery and racism, and the inability to do anything about it? Well, that makes me very uncomfortable.

ZOS is operating in a new timeline at this point, that much is obvious (they pretty much admitted it in the Clockwork City when they mentioned that Mournhold hadn't gotten destroyed once and only a dwemer ruin sat beneath it, which would be too obvious to just be a mistake), so they should just give us the chance to have more of an affect on the time period we find ourselves in now.

Though, when Skywind happens, it gives me all the more reason to smack Archmagister Gothren six ways from Sunday. Houses Telvanni and Dres are the only groups in a video game where I've felt really compelled to stop them at all costs. ESO gave us the Veiled Heritance as well, who were almost as deserving of that compulsion. We could do something about the Veiled Heritance, though.

Frankly, I'd pay good money for a Twin Lamps DLC. I wish they'd just free themselves of the illusion that this is in any way linked to the timeline of the main games and just admit -- Star Trek style -- that this is a new timeline and have fun with it.

It really is depressing that we can't do anything about the slaves and, like I said, the connotations considering real world parallels are deeply unsettling. It's even worse because in the Hireling of House Telvanni quest line, they even drove home just how similar to real world slavery it was. They even brought up topics like isolation boxes and stuff, going far further than Morrowind ever did, and then saying that, nope, we can't do anything about it.

It's the only time I've felt really betrayed by ZOS in a narrative sense, frankly.

They can do better. They should do better.

Twin Lamps DLC, ZOS. Free yourself from this stain. You don't need to represent racism and slavery in your game without also showing the repercussions.

TonyRockaroni · June 2018

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Ah just keep in mind that the Argonians are little better given the chance. You know what happens after Baar Dau crashes into Vvardenfell and causes Red Mountain to devastate Morrowind? Argonians decide this is the perfect time to go pillage and murder and cause all around mayhem.

Yeah it sucks to see them treated that way, to see ANYONE treated that way...but they haven't exactly shown themselves to be of a higher moral standard given the opportunity.

Honestly? I say good for them! The Dunmer got what had been coming to them over the course of thousands of years. With everything the Dunmer had done to the Argonians ever since the late First Era, the Dunmer got what they finally deserved.

AuldWolf · June 2018

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Ah just keep in mind that the Argonians are little better given the chance. You know what happens after Baar Dau crashes into Vvardenfell and causes Red Mountain to devastate Morrowind? Argonians decide this is the perfect time to go pillage and murder and cause all around mayhem.

][citation needed]

Yes, the argonian armies DID march on Vvardenfell, this is true. I recall no records of there being such misconduct, though. For all we know, they were purely after houses Telvanni and Dres, which -- in all honesty -- would be completely fair. In that case, they'd be doing Nirn a favour.

TonyRockaroni · June 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Ah just keep in mind that the Argonians are little better given the chance. You know what happens after Baar Dau crashes into Vvardenfell and causes Red Mountain to devastate Morrowind? Argonians decide this is the perfect time to go pillage and murder and cause all around mayhem.

][citation needed]

Yes, the argonian armies DID march on Vvardenfell, this is true. I recall no records of there being such misconduct, though. For all we know, they were purely after houses Telvanni and Dres, which -- in all honesty -- would be completely fair. In that case, they'd be doing Nirn a favour.

House Dres and House Telvanni were the clear targets, from what I've researched. And keep in mind that House Dres was the only Great House that wasn't really affected by the eruption of Red Mountain. While the other were weakened, the Argonians pretty much fought House Dres when they were at near full-strength. That and the fact that they had to go through House Dres to reach the territories of the other houses, and now the city of Tear and the surrounding region are part of Black Marsh. House Dres lost their capital city.

As for Mournhold, well, all of the Dunmer houses likely had holdings in the now former capital. And as the then capital of the people who had enslaved them, of course t was going to get sacked.

The only reason House Redoran likely pushed back the Argonians is because, logically, they were the last house for the Argonians. By the time they reached them, they had to be exhausted at that point.

DeadlyPhoenix · June 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Ah just keep in mind that the Argonians are little better given the chance. You know what happens after Baar Dau crashes into Vvardenfell and causes Red Mountain to devastate Morrowind? Argonians decide this is the perfect time to go pillage and murder and cause all around mayhem.

][citation needed]

Yes, the argonian armies DID march on Vvardenfell, this is true. I recall no records of there being such misconduct, though. For all we know, they were purely after houses Telvanni and Dres, which -- in all honesty -- would be completely fair. In that case, they'd be doing Nirn a favour.

In 4E 6, the Argonians took advantage of Morrowind's weakened state, and launched an invasion as revenge for centuries of slavery under the Dunmer, killing hundreds of innocents.[16] Under the command of the An-Xileel, they captured territories in southern Morrowind, but were then halted by the armies of House Redoran.[4] The Argonians cursed the waters near the ruins of Vivec City forever, turning it into a boiling hot area known as Scathing Bay.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Year

It does say they killed hundreds of innocents in revenge.

Personally I can't really blame them, but it would have been a good time to lend a helping hand and mend broken relations between the two cultures rather than attack an already near defenseless place that has already been through a lot of turmoil.

As to the main post, I wish we could free them as well. I have no love for khajiit or argonians and seldom play one, however only the evilist among us deserve to be enslaved.

efster · June 2018

I would just like to say for the record that "political correctness has gone too far!" is applicable when someone tells you to kill yourself for calling someone a chairman instead of a chairperson, not when people don't like someone expressing enthusiastic support of enslaving an entire species. That's just people exhibiting a baseline level of decency.

TonyRockaroni · June 2018

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

In 4E 6, the Argonians took advantage of Morrowind's weakened state, and launched an invasion as revenge for centuries of slavery under the Dunmer, killing hundreds of innocents.[16] Under the command of the An-Xileel, they captured territories in southern Morrowind, but were then halted by the armies of House Redoran.[4] The Argonians cursed the waters near the ruins of Vivec City forever, turning it into a boiling hot area known as Scathing Bay.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Year

It does say they killed hundreds of innocents in revenge.

Personally I can't really blame them, but it would have been a good time to lend a helping hand and mend broken relations between the two cultures rather than attack an already near defenseless place that has already been through a lot of turmoil.

True, they did innocents. But from what I've noticed, the context of innocents isn't referred to in a specific enough manner. They could be talking about completely innocent victims, or victims who were innocent of any actual crimes but not innocent morally. That is never truly specified. And one lesson I've learned from The Elder Scrolls series (such as the quest "Vengeance of the Opressed") is that nothing is ever black or white. It's always gray, like a Dunmer's skin. War especially, because casualties are inevitable.

That being said, while it is true that the Argonians could have tried to help "innocents", at the same time, there is no way the Dunmer would have even accepted help from them due to how they view the Argonians as lesser beings. During questing in the Stonefalls, we saw Argonians offeeriing help to injured Dunmer, yet those Dunmer refused medical attention from them.

Besides, the very first House that was attacked (or even could be from a geographical perspective) was House Dres. Out of all five Dunmer houses, Dres is the only house that was not really affected by Red Mountain's eruption, as I said in a previous post. While it can be argued that they attacked the other houses when they were weakened, House Dres could not have been that weakened when their territories are furthest from Vvardenfell. Sure, earthquakes and flooding were mentioned to have happened. A southern city wall collapsing and knee-deep water is one thing. But entire cities being destroyed or wiped away is another.

Enslaved · June 2018

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Ah just keep in mind that the Argonians are little better given the chance. You know what happens after Baar Dau crashes into Vvardenfell and causes Red Mountain to devastate Morrowind? Argonians decide this is the perfect time to go pillage and murder and cause all around mayhem.

Yeah it sucks to see them treated that way, to see ANYONE treated that way...but they haven't exactly shown themselves to be of a higher moral standard given the opportunity.

Centuries of slavery. Dunmer will get what they deserved, imho.

Claudman · June 2018

Yo, the Dunmer gotta eat somehow. Who else is going to farm all those crops?

Enslaved · June 2018

Claudman wrote: »

Yo, the Dunmer gotta eat somehow. Who else is going to farm all those crops?

Lets see. Nords farm their own crops.
Khajiit farm all sort of their own crops.
Even damned bretons farm their own crops.

Dunmer simply have L2F issue and it will come around to bite their arses in the future.

Claudman · June 2018

@Enslaved

no

redshirt_49 · June 2018

TonyRockaroni wrote: »

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

In 4E 6, the Argonians took advantage of Morrowind's weakened state, and launched an invasion as revenge for centuries of slavery under the Dunmer, killing hundreds of innocents.[16] Under the command of the An-Xileel, they captured territories in southern Morrowind, but were then halted by the armies of House Redoran.[4] The Argonians cursed the waters near the ruins of Vivec City forever, turning it into a boiling hot area known as Scathing Bay.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Year

It does say they killed hundreds of innocents in revenge.

Personally I can't really blame them, but it would have been a good time to lend a helping hand and mend broken relations between the two cultures rather than attack an already near defenseless place that has already been through a lot of turmoil.

True, they did innocents. But from what I've noticed, the context of innocents isn't referred to in a specific enough manner. They could be talking about completely innocent victims, or victims who were innocent of any actual crimes but not innocent morally. That is never truly specified. And one lesson I've learned from The Elder Scrolls series (such as the quest "Vengeance of the Opressed") is that nothing is ever black or white. It's always gray, like a Dunmer's skin. War especially, because casualties are inevitable.

That being said, while it is true that the Argonians could have tried to help "innocents", at the same time, there is no way the Dunmer would have even accepted help from them due to how they view the Argonians as lesser beings. During questing in the Stonefalls, we saw Argonians offeeriing help to injured Dunmer, yet those Dunmer refused medical attention from them.

Besides, the very first House that was attacked (or even could be from a geographical perspective) was House Dres. Out of all five Dunmer houses, Dres is the only house that was not really affected by Red Mountain's eruption, as I said in a previous post. While it can be argued that they attacked the other houses when they were weakened, House Dres could not have been that weakened when their territories are furthest from Vvardenfell. Sure, earthquakes and flooding were mentioned to have happened. A southern city wall collapsing and knee-deep water is one thing. But entire cities being destroyed or wiped away is another.

That's guite the bit of mental gymnastics to try and justify it.

Two wrongs don't make a right. By doing what they did, they simply demonstrated that they were not exactly of a high moral standard themselves. And I guess that's the lesson at the end of this : people are ***** no matter where you go in Tamriel.

Enslaved · June 2018

Claudman wrote: »

@Enslaved

no

wht do u mean no? Do you not know of the 4th era Saxhleel invasion on Morrowind?
After Vivec disappeared, some Dunmer had an agreement with clavicus vile to give them means to keep that meteor up in the sky. And Vile, being what he is gave them a machine powered by sacrifices.
First, sacrifices were volunteers. After that they started to kill prisoners to sustain the machine. When they were out of prisoners, they started to take ppl for no reason, just to keep the machine running. At some point they had noone to sacrifice I guess, sht stopped to work, meteor hit the city with initial power and Red Mountain errupted, devastating over 60% of all Morrowind. Saxhleel saw this as a chance to once and for all put a stop on thier northern neighbours enslavement and terror, and they invaded what was lefor of Morrowind, drowning cities like Tear in blood of their former enslavers.

Most of the refuges we saw in Windhelm dyring the timeline of TES V were not there because Red Mountain made them leave, but because they were about to be killed by Saxhleel who rightfully decided to spare noone. Dunmer that used to be on Vvardenfell when Volcano errupted were almost all killed in matter of minutes.Only several fishermen, traders that were on sea and sorcerers survived the red year. Most still living Dunmers were from mainland Morrowind, mostly from Deshaan, since stonefalls seem to be covered in rain of molten rock and rock fragments for a year.

Claudman · June 2018

Claudman · June 2018

@Enslaved
Saxhleel enslave non-Argonians and even their own people. The Archein and Xit-Xaht happily committed these acts.
Saxhleel also have actively committed genocide on those who share territory with them, purging both the Lilmothiit and Kothringi.
Dunmer aren't perfect, but neither are the Argonians; especially when the Argonians take pleasure in experimenting and kidnapping outsiders who walk into territories they don't want them walking in. Look at the Kota-Vimleel, they experiment on outsiders by testing their alchemical mixtures on them. Baar Dau crashed because a Dunmer man didn't want to accept his wife being sacrificed to Clavicus Vile and thus his entire race had to pay for it. The Hist is a powerful cosmological entity which can foresee the future and has existed in every Kalpa, so it's well-aware that the Dunmer were going to be weakened by the fall of Baar Dau pre-emptively. That's why it didn't do anything to protect its own people and creations. It was an atrocious act the Saxhleel did when they decided to essentially kick the Dunmer while they were down especially when mainly House Telvanni and House Dres commit slavery. Indoril doesn't condone slavery, neither does Redoran. Hlaalu is indifferent towards it. The Dunmer all mutually accept that slavery is needed to keep their hard-to-fertilize soil covered with food, even if it is something the Houses disagree upon. It's a necessary evil, like the necessary evils in the Black Marsh...The Shadowscales, Kota-Vimleel, Tum-Taleel, Whet Fang, Veeskhleel, Archein and so much more. The Archein only disbanded not because of Saxhleel meddling, but because slavery was no longer profitable for the Black Marsh. Neither points are justified.
Argonians didn't need to commit genocide on the Dunmer, Lilmothiit or Kothringi.
Dunmer didn't need to commit slavery on the Khajiit, Argonians and non-Dunmer.
But...They both did it because it was the only thing they could do with their societal ways.

Do you not know any of that?
Because with your logic, Argonians also deserved to be enslaved or killed.

MLGProPlayer · June 2018

As a high elf main, I honestly can't tell the difference between a dark elf and an argonian. All the lesser races look the same to me. They all belong in cages

Koronach · June 2018

I have a save file on TESIII where I killed off like every Telvanni NPC and freed nearly every slave. That one in the Telvanni canton in Vivec "The Lizards Head" pub, Teegla is a pain to free. So yeah I couldn't free them on ESO but I had a good time on TESIII, The Red Year came early.

Enslaved · June 2018

Claudman wrote: »

@Enslaved
Saxhleel enslave non-Argonians and even their own people. The Archein and Xit-Xaht happily committed these acts.
Saxhleel also have actively committed genocide on those who share territory with them, purging both the Lilmothiit and Kothringi.
Dunmer aren't perfect, but neither are the Argonians; especially when the Argonians take pleasure in experimenting and kidnapping outsiders who walk into territories they don't want them walking in. Look at the Kota-Vimleel, they experiment on outsiders by testing their alchemical mixtures on them. Baar Dau crashed because a Dunmer man didn't want to accept his wife being sacrificed to Clavicus Vile and thus his entire race had to pay for it. The Hist is a powerful cosmological entity which can foresee the future and has existed in every Kalpa, so it's well-aware that the Dunmer were going to be weakened by the fall of Baar Dau pre-emptively. That's why it didn't do anything to protect its own people and creations. It was an atrocious act the Saxhleel did when they decided to essentially kick the Dunmer while they were down especially when mainly House Telvanni and House Dres commit slavery. Indoril doesn't condone slavery, neither does Redoran. Hlaalu is indifferent towards it. The Dunmer all mutually accept that slavery is needed to keep their hard-to-fertilize soil covered with food, even if it is something the Houses disagree upon. It's a necessary evil, like the necessary evils in the Black Marsh...The Shadowscales, Kota-Vimleel, Tum-Taleel, Whet Fang, Veeskhleel, Archein and so much more. The Archein only disbanded not because of Saxhleel meddling, but because slavery was no longer profitable for the Black Marsh. Neither points are justified.
Argonians didn't need to commit genocide on the Dunmer, Lilmothiit or Kothringi.
Dunmer didn't need to commit slavery on the Khajiit, Argonians and non-Dunmer.
But...They both did it because it was the only thing they could do with their societal ways.

Do you not know any of that?

Kothringi died mostly of Knahaten Flu. What happened to Lilmothiit was never shown, I hope new DLC will help us find that out. About what ancestors of the elves did to Saxhleel we can see even in ESO, just listen to ghosts of elven enslavers and their talk about flesh sculptures and similar. During the akaviri invasion that happened just before ESO, Saxhleel were the one to come and help Dunmer and Nords to drive away the foreign invaders. if they were as you describe them, they could just sit on their tails in swamps and wait that Akaviri destroy their enslavers and then kill the rest of Dunmer with ease. No, they decided to help and prove everyone that Saxhleel folk do not deserve to be kept as objects, like most Dunmer did. How did Dunmer repayed that? By enslaving them once again. What happened in 4th era is result of that. Fool me once, shame on you.
About Hist and its lack of intervention. Since you have such logic, lets apply it to other dieties. Where the F was Malacath when orsinium was sacked not once, not twice but 4 F times? Where was any of them when Flu was killing half of the continent? From all "dieties" in ESO we see only Meridia trying something at all. Since how quests were done, you cant say Vivec, Almalexia or even Sotha Sil did anything to secure their lands and ppl in ESO. Vivec was "ill", Almalexia cares only about Almalexia, and Sotha Sil can be used as measurement unit for depression.

We know so little about Hist. Hope new DLC will show us more. So far we have a lot of info that contradicts itself, from Hist being used as underground railway system, to Hits beint able to prevent Oblivion crisis during TES IV. From quest in ESO related to it we see it is some sort of collective memory of entire Black Marsh and its creatures. Who knows?

Out of all the tribes and organisations of Saxhleel you mentioned, we know that same as with khajiit, not all Saxhleel look the same. We have huge behemots, we have standard ones we met in ESO/Skyrim/Oblivion, we have these with beast feet we met in TES III... Black marsh was even in 4th era considered rather unexplored, so how can you state that saxhleel clans are just these tied to enslaving their own races or being parts of DB? 99% of all saxhleel we saw in TES series or ESO were mere commoners or folk enslaved by others. On the other hand, we have quite a bit info on what dunmer did, how they came to be and what will happen to them later, since whole TES is pretty much tied around them ever since Morrowind. And there are not many nice things to say about them.

DanteYoda · June 2018

Not all slaves have it tough.. Some romans used to keep slaves and they did really well for themselves..

Claudman · June 2018

@Enslaved
You can't compare the Hist to the other deities because it doesn't act like other deities. This is a very Sithis/Padomaic aligned entity which is all about stagnation. All those entities you named are either Daedric Princes who don't care about the lives of mortals or the Living Gods who are shown to be quite selfish, basking in the worship of their followers. There was a reason why Dagoth Ur absolutely despised them even though he was driven insane by his own opus.
You should read The Infernal City by Greg Keyes.

The Hist isn't used as an underground railroad system, you're thinking about the large express worms that supposedly exist.
It's confirmed the Hist was the reason why the Saxhleel fought back Mehrunes Dagon, it's been stated in dialog that it's a highly intelligent organism. (Stated by the Augur of the Obscure and speculated by Argonians in 'Guide to Tamriel: Black Marsh')

And about Black Marsh supposedly being unexplored and other claims...
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tribes_of_Murkmire
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Crafting_Motifs_11:_Ancient_Elves
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Wild_Region
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Argonians
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Argonia

And never have I stated Argonians all look the same. The Naga are a shining example of that (a.k.a. the Veeskhleel). How can you state that all the Dark Elves are tied to slavery? What about the poor/commoner Dark Elves or even the Morag Tong who outright despise slavery? (I.e. Nayru's dialog and that one other Morag Tong agent I forgot the name of) Not all Dark Elves enslave, just like Argonians. Not every Dark Elf is a slaver walking around with a leash...And the Archein aren't some myth either.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Argonian_to_Saxhleel
You should read Heita-Meen's backstory. She had to deal with these Argonian Archein slavers and bruisers.
And...

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heita-Meen_Answers_Your_Questions

So that whole "Black Marsh wasn't explored yet" thing isn't true. There are a lot of blanks, but it isn't unexplored and not even by that margin. It's about 50% unexplored if anything (Murkwood, Lilmoth, etc. still remain as ambiguous points of interest). The man who specifically stated, "Argonians are simply misunderstood" disappeared into the Black Marsh and never returned...No doubt murdered for being an outsider by tribes like the Tum-Taleel or Veeskhleel. The reason why most Argonians we see are commoners or slaves is because those are Lukiul, rarely do we ever see Saxhleel leave their homelands, because Saxhleel are a very recluse people. This is even stated on the Murkmire announcement page about the tribes of Murkmire. Most tribes only care about the Black Marsh, rarely do they ever care about the outside...Most outsiders they see as raiders, slavers or even potential slaves if they're Archein.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Improved_Emperor's_Guide_to_Tamriel/Black_Marsh

Unreliable narrator exists, yes, but to say that the Dark Elves are absolutely evil compared to Argonians is simply untrue.

Claudman · June 2018

@MLGProPlayer
same.

Enslaved · June 2018

Claudman wrote: »

@Enslaved
You can't compare the Hist to the other deities because it doesn't act like other deities. This is a very Sithis/Padomaic aligned entity which is all about stagnation. All those entities you named are either Daedric Princes who don't care about the lives of mortals or the Living Gods who are shown to be quite selfish, basking in the worship of their followers. There was a reason why Dagoth Ur absolutely despised them even though he was driven insane by his own opus.

The Hist isn't used as an underground railroad system, you're thinking about the large express worms that supposedly exist.
It's confirmed the Hist was the reason why the Saxhleel fought back Mehrunes Dagon, it's been stated in dialog that it's a highly intelligent organism. (Stated by the Augur of the Obscure and speculated by Argonians in 'Guide to Tamriel: Black Marsh')

And about Black Marsh supposedly being unexplored and other claims...
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tribes_of_Murkmire
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Crafting_Motifs_11:_Ancient_Elves
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Wild_Region
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Argonians
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Argonia

And never have I stated Argonians all look the same. The Naga are a shining example of that (a.k.a. the Veeskhleel). How can you state that all the Dark Elves are tied to slavery? What about the poor/commoner Dark Elves or even the Morag Tong who outright despise slavery? (I.e. Nayru's dialog and that one other Morag Tong agent I forgot the name of) Not all Dark Elves enslave, just like Argonians. Not every Dark Elf is a slaver walking around with a leash...And the Archein aren't some myth either.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:From_Argonian_to_Saxhleel
You should read Heita-Meen's backstory. She had to deal with these Argonian Archein slavers and bruisers.
And...

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Heita-Meen_Answers_Your_Questions

So that whole "Black Marsh wasn't explored yet" thing isn't true. There are a lot of blanks, but it isn't unexplored and not even by that margin. It's about 50% unexplored if anything (Murkwood, Lilmoth, etc. still remain as ambiguous points of interest). The man who specifically stated, "Argonians are simply misunderstood" disappeared into the Black Marsh and never returned...No doubt murdered for being an outsider by tribes like the Tum-Taleel or Veeskhleel. The reason why most Argonians we see are commoners or slaves is because those are Lukiul, rarely do we ever see Saxhleel leave their homelands, because Saxhleel are a very recluse people. This is even stated on the Murkmire announcement page about the tribes of Murkmire. Most tribes only care about the Black Marsh, rarely do they ever care about the outside...Most outsiders they see as raiders, slavers or even potential slaves if they're Archein.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Improved_Emperor's_Guide_to_Tamriel/Black_Marsh

Same would be if I would go out, like wiki pages with lore from other TES games that stated towers of Alinor were made of crystal, or orsimer were killed on sight in this era and seen just as animals. I know not every Dunmer is slaver, but guys that act like you make all Dunmer look bad. Also, about my statement that Dunmers are tied to slavery.

if Dunmer did not require slaves, there would be no slave trade nor slaves at all in ESO nor TES. It is their high demand for slaverty that such "business" exist in the first pace in this and future eras. Saxhleel slavers that work for Dunmers truly are the worst, since they are true betrayers of their people, but if Dunmer were not buying slaves off them, there would be zero slaves. No other race had such a long history of enslaving others in TES than dunmer. No other race kept others as slaves even a fraction of time compared to how long Dunmer did it to others. For me, enslaving Saxhleel is as bad as enslaving Khajiit, Nord, Bosmer or even bretons that I despise in every shape and form. There is no reasons that can justify slavery of any race. Dunmer had 3 living gods for thousands of years with them and these turned blind eye on what their ppl did to other races. Not every Dunmer is a slaver, I am aware of that. And most of these are redeeming their race by not being involved in slavery in any form. I do not hate Dunmer, they are among my favorite races in TES. But I hate all slavers, no matter what race they are.

Claudman · June 2018

@Enslaved
"I know not every Dunmer is slaver, but guys that act like you make all Dunmer look bad."

But...Pretty much all of my characters are Argonian, what do you even mean by that statement?

I like both races...Hell, I like all races except Bretons, but I'm not allowing my biased towards Argonians or Dark Elves to cloud my judgement when deciding who's evil. Saxhleel probably have been enslaving long before Dunmer have, we don't know. Xit-Xaht weren't working for Dunmer, yet they enslaved anyways. You're missing the point, I'm stating that the morality between the two races is gray. If Dunmer deserve to die for slavery, Argonians deserve to die for slavery and genocide.

And Heita-Meen's backstory isn't from another game and it mentions Archein slavers.

Enslaved · June 2018

Claudman wrote: »

@Enslaved
"I know not every Dunmer is slaver, but guys that act like you make all Dunmer look bad."

But...Pretty much all of my characters are Argonian, what do you even mean by that statement?

I like both races...Hell, I like all races except Bretons, but I'm not allowing my biased towards Argonians or Dark Elves to cloud my judgement when deciding who's evil. Saxhleel probably have been enslaving long before Dunmer have, we don't know. Xit-Xaht weren't working for Dunmer, yet they enslaved anyways. You're missing the point, I'm stating that the morality between the two races is gray. If Dunmer deserve to die for slavery, Argonians deserve to die for slavery and genocide.

I saw your comments that promote slavery. That is not how someone who like saxhleel as a race should behave.
But as you said, who knows? maybe we find out these evil Xit-Xaht keep dunmer slaves somewhere west of Gideon atm.
Also, if Saxhleel deserve to die for slavery and genocide, maybe ppl who promote slavery should die as well?

Claudman · June 2018

@Enslaved
The Xit-Xaht are all dead though...

"Argonians didn't need to commit genocide on the Dunmer, Lilmothiit or Kothringi.
Dunmer didn't need to commit slavery on the Khajiit, Argonians and non-Dunmer.
But...They both did it because it was the only thing they could do with their societal ways."
Yes, because this was promoting slavery and wasn't pointing out the fact that they both do equally messed up things.

"Also, if Saxhleel deserve to die for slavery and genocide, maybe ppl who promote slavery should die as well?"
I think you're taking this too seriously. I'm Afro -Latino, why would I promote slavery? lol

Claudman · June 2018

@Enslaved
Also the Argonians are a fictional race, they don't exist. I find all jokes about them funny.
I can love Argonians without being a blind fan and saying they're the perfect race...Or treating them like they're real.

Violynne · June 2018

TonyRockaroni wrote: »

And I know it's a longshot, but I'm hoping that a quest gets made or something where the slaves eventually get to go free. Even if it's just the Argonians that go free.

Then what?

Oh, I get it. You just want them to be free. Who cares what happens to them so long as they're not in cages.

Reality check.

As much as it pains to see an intelligent species enslaved, leaving them in cages is actually better for them. Most were born into slavery, meaning they have zero skills outside what they picked up in their situation. They simply will not function in a normal society because things they've learned (such as punching someone for tying to take their dinner or stealing whenever they can) come with such a life.

Even *if* there was a group willing to take them in, they can't take all of them and get them out of Morrowind and staying on the island ensures they'll be quickly captured. Even the savior vigilante couldn't stay hidden, so imagine how difficult it would be to hide many slaves.

Their living conditions may not be great, but the slave owners will ensure they get something. Bad business to have slaves dying and can't work.

When a "savior" like you comes along and disrupts this lifestyle, it does more harm than good. Unless you intend to financially back them, hire people to educate them, and spend most of your time working with those you've freed, you're pretty much useless in the situation.

I'm not sure what ending you took, but in my ending, only a few managed to escape.

Reality. It sucks.

ZOS_JesC · June 2018

Greetings, we've removed a few baiting comments. Since the thread has derailed into the discussion of historical racism and is no long on the topic of ESO, we've decided to close the thread.