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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Thanks for the House of Reveries Quest (Discussion CONTAINS SPOILERS)
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Still_Mind✭✭✭The whole transgender sub-theme kinda went over my head-I just assumed that the person maintained the opposite-gender appearance for the sake of the stage art and in effort to keep their identity secret. This thread gave me something to ponder on.
Anyhow, I loved the quest because it was well-written and thought-out, it had intrigue, I felt emotionally invested, and the whole investigation and dress-up were a nice change of pace from saving the world (again) and fighting off hordes of invading monstrosities from beyond...
I wish I got a Mask in the end though.Edited by Still_Mind on June 4, 2018 7:06AM"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"4 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Still_Mind wrote: »The whole transgender sub-theme kinda went over my head-I just assumed that the person maintained the opposite-gender appearance for the sake of the stage art and in effort to keep their identity secret. This thread gave me something to ponder on.
Anyhow, I loved the quest because it was well-written and thought-out, it had intrigue, I felt emotionally invested, and the whole investigation and dress-up were a nice change of pace from saving the world (again) and fighting off hordes of invading monstrosities from beyond...
I wish I got a Mask in the end though.
Yeah, the gender portion of it isn't played up much, it's just an interesting side aspect of the quest that adds a layer of nuance. It's still mostly a quest about two siblings going their separate ways in their career, despite both showing aptitude for the more socially-ambitious career path. If you aren't predisposed to look for it and didn't do the post-quest follow-up dialogue then it can be easy to miss!Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster2 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I made a comment on my discord right after finishing this quest because I was so pleasantly surprised by it. Alchemy said being in the troupe helped with finding and expressing one's true identity, and obviously for her that was a female identify, and I liked how once her sister found out the truth, not only she accepted it but she respected it, and called Alchemy 'little sister'. That was really progressive, kudos to ZOS writers for the dialogue and the story.3 -
SoupDragon✭✭✭100% agree. It was so amazing! Had to take a screen shot and send to my friends. I just wish the House of Reveries played a bigger role or had more quests. More from them in the future, please.5 -
SixVoltCar✭✭✭With the amount by which non-traditional couples and those with GID are called for on the forums, I'd swear that MMO players can only think about their own nether regions.
Quest was well-acted and written, no complaints. Direnni Acropolis, Russafeld, and Corgrad Wastes were more my speed.Edited by SixVoltCar on June 4, 2018 9:49AM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[edited to remove quote]
Because generally it doesnt mean they are a man who identifies as a woman. It means they are a woman who identifies as a woman, who happens to have be transgender. You know, like the commenter told you in the first place... In googling it myself, the more neutral description I saw was that a transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
The way you say it, whether you intend it or not, comes off as very "You say you are a woman, but you are really a man who identifies as a woman." I'm not sure thats what you were going for. If you did mean that, I'm going to point back to the original commenter's description of herself, "I'm a woman, who happens to be transgender."
I mean, Alchemy is in the same boat. Clearly assigned male at birth, clearly identifies as female and reshaped her body accordingly with magic. Now, Alchemy is a woman and her sister, thankfully, accepts her as such.
That being said, itd probably be wise and polite for us to get the thread back on topic about the quest.Edited by ZOS_JesC on June 5, 2018 1:21PM10 -
Diggles_MacSkreeSoul ShrivenVaranisArano wrote: »Because generally it doesnt mean they are a man who identifies as a woman. It means they are a woman who identifies as a woman, who happens to have be transgender. You know, like the commenter told you in the first place... In googling it myself, the more neutral description I saw was that a transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
The way you say it, whether you intend it or not, comes off as very "You say you are a woman, but you are really a man who identifies as a woman." I'm not sure thats what you were going for. If you did mean that, I'm going to point back to the original commenter's description of herself, "I'm a woman, who happens to be transgender."
I mean, Alchemy is in the same boat. Clearly assigned male at birth, clearly identifies as female and reshaped her body accordingly with magic. Now, Alchemy is a woman and her sister, thankfully, accepts her as such.
That being said, itd probably be wise and polite for us to get the thread back on topic about the quest.
Nailed it
I'm a woman who identifies as a woman. I was designated male at birth, but that's an erroneous letter on a birth certificate. "Transgender" is merely a modifier. I'd have responded sooner, but I hadn't checked the forums until now.
And my only regret about the quest is now I want to have further adventures with The House of Reveries. I guess we'll have to wait for a minstrel class...10 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭".... Not that it matters, but when someone says I aVaranisArano wrote: »[edited to remove quote]
Because generally it doesnt mean they are a man who identifies as a woman. It means they are a woman who identifies as a woman, who happens to have be transgender. You know, like the commenter told you in the first place... In googling it myself, the more neutral description I saw was that a transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
The way you say it, whether you intend it or not, comes off as very "You say you are a woman, but you are really a man who identifies as a woman." I'm not sure thats what you were going for. If you did mean that, I'm going to point back to the original commenter's description of herself, "I'm a woman, who happens to be transgender."
I mean, Alchemy is in the same boat. Clearly assigned male at birth, clearly identifies as female and reshaped her body accordingly with magic. Now, Alchemy is a woman and her sister, thankfully, accepts her as such.
That being said, itd probably be wise and polite for us to get the thread back on topic about the quest.
I meant no offense and apologize if it was interpreted as such. I even said "I like that controversial things irl are simply looked at as normal In nirn. Even dibella sees all love as pure". So I have no problem with such things in yes gamesDiggles_MacSkree wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because generally it doesnt mean they are a man who identifies as a woman. It means they are a woman who identifies as a woman, who happens to have be transgender. You know, like the commenter told you in the first place... In googling it myself, the more neutral description I saw was that a transgender woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
The way you say it, whether you intend it or not, comes off as very "You say you are a woman, but you are really a man who identifies as a woman." I'm not sure thats what you were going for. If you did mean that, I'm going to point back to the original commenter's description of herself, "I'm a woman, who happens to be transgender."
I mean, Alchemy is in the same boat. Clearly assigned male at birth, clearly identifies as female and reshaped her body accordingly with magic. Now, Alchemy is a woman and her sister, thankfully, accepts her as such.
That being said, itd probably be wise and polite for us to get the thread back on topic about the quest.
Nailed it I'm a woman who identifies as a woman. I was designated male at birth, but that's an erroneous letter on a birth certificate. "Transgender" is merely a modifier. I'd have responded sooner, but I hadn't checked the forums until now.
And my only regret about the quest is now I want to have further adventures with The House of Reveries. I guess we'll have to wait for a minstrel class...
The closest you'll get is there's like two other npcs from them that are quest givers. One is at the docks near rellinthal.Edited by ZOS_JesC on June 5, 2018 1:22PM1 -
Andauril✭✭✭I truly loved this quest (and wish we'd gotten a mask as reward because I love the House of Reveries masks but that's another topic). I loved that you could complete without killing everyone - I love it when you can solve a situation non-violently. I loved the story too ... I found it very touching, but perhaps the most beautiful part I found was the reactions of transgender people to the quest. I'm on tumblr and a number of ppl commented on how much the quest meant to them and that's exactly why representation matters!
Apart from that, it was just ... a beautiful tale about a pair of siblings who love each other very much and only wanted the best for each other, but who had forgotten to talk with each other - and who manage to find a new understanding of each other.
My only complaint is that I would've loved more quests with the House of Reveries and Alchemy. It would've been nice if we could've really joined them or sth ...
But yeah, I truly loved the quest.2 -
alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
it's a good start and nice to finally see the T represented where before we really only had LGB and a handful of borderline offensive facsimiles, like the elf or whatever that wanted to be a khajiit. i'd like to see more, though, and while the house of reveries quest we got had a lot more to it than just trans 101 i'd want future characters to be similarly defined by a lot more than their trans-ness. that is to say, thieves or mages or artisans or whatever whose characterization is subtle, like deploying a trans voice actor and designing them with a trans physicality.Edited by platonicidealgirlfriend on June 4, 2018 10:03PM1 -
DamenAJ✭✭✭✭platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
it's a good start and nice to finally see the T represented where before we really only had LGB and a handful of borderline offensive facsimiles, like the elf or whatever that wanted to be a khajiit. i'd like to see more, though, and while the house of reveries quest we got had a lot more to it than just trans 101 i'd want future characters to be similarly defined by a lot more than their trans-ness. that is to say, thieves or mages or artisans or whatever whose characterization is subtle, like deploying a trans voice actor and designing them with a trans physicality.
I think one issue that ESO "struggles" with representing trans people, is that... Well, Gay couples are treated absolutely no differently, so I wonder if trans people might be treated the same? I always loved that ESO was so gay friendly, but if trans people can use magic to transition, and no one is a jerk about it, you pretty much never know. My two cents on that anyway.3 -
logarifmik✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personally, I found "Murder In Lillandril" much more better written, than the quest discussed here. Narrative of "Manor of Masques" is... cute, but I guess that's all I have to say about it. And, as I see it, Larydel motivation to become Alchemy is not a feeling wrong about his gender, but obsession with art. Or did he said different somewhere? I fail to recall it, really. Besides, his personality is more likely a reference to travesti, not transgenders.
Also, have you, guys and gals, ever noticed, that all "non-formal" characters are necessarily good? If this become part of the lore and one of the main trend in the western writing tradition, why not to make some badass gays/transgenders as well? More interesting and fair approach, no?EU PC: @logarifmik | Languages: Русский, English
Dimitri Frernis | Breton Sorcerer | Damage Dealer | Daggerfall Covenant
Scales-of-Ice | Argonian Warden | Tank / Healer | Daggerfall Covenant1 -
DamenAJ✭✭✭✭logarifmik wrote: »Personally, I found "Murder In Lillandril" much more better written, than the quest discussed here. Narrative of "Manor of Masques" is... cute, but I guess that's all I have to say about it. And, as I see it, Larydel motivation to become Alchemy is not a feeling wrong about his gender, but obsession with art. Or did he said different somewhere? I fail to recall it, really. Besides, his personality is more likely a reference to travesti, not transgenders.
Also, have you, guys and gals, ever noticed, that all "non-formal" characters are necessarily good? If this become part of the lore and one of the main trend in the western writing tradition, why not to make some badass gays/transgenders as well? More interesting and fair approach, no?
There are a ton of gay couples. The only "bad" ones I can think of off the top of my head are a pirate in.... One of the starter zones I think? It's been a while. And Vanessa from the thieves guild. But I don't really keep track.0 -
Vulsahdaal✭✭✭✭✭
✭platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
Im not trans, but wasnt taken in by the others. I dont think trans or cis had much to do with it.I believed it was Alchemy right away and Ill explain why. When questioning the others, one of them, I forgot which one though lol, mentioned that after being 'selected' there was a celebration involving costumes, makeup, perfumes etc.. I remember reading in the book, that the brother came home smelling of perfume etc one night. I then figured the brother had 'made it' and was no longer a 'hopeful', which ruled out the others, except for Alchemy.
This said, I still am confused as to what some others are talking about, I think I missed some things? Contrary to what some here say, to the best of my recollection, the sister never found out which one was her brother. When I told her I believed it was Alchemy, she denied it and said it was not possible. There was no 'affectionate hug' I remember or being called 'little sister'?
After I spoke with Alchemy I suggested that it would be best to wait until after the sister left and then write her a note explaining, and it was agreed. The sister wasnt too happy, that her brother sent the message rather than telling her in person but said she would leave.
I either missed a part of this quest, or perhaps it has different endings?0 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello there,
Recently we've had to remove several posts from unneeded back and forth. For further posts please be sure to post more constructively and respectfully. Keep in mind that political content, flaming and baiting are all agaisnt the Forum Rules. Any continuation of disruptive behavior will only lead to action on one's own account.
Thank you for understanding.2 -
platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
it's a good start and nice to finally see the T represented where before we really only had LGB and a handful of borderline offensive facsimiles, like the elf or whatever that wanted to be a khajiit. i'd like to see more, though, and while the house of reveries quest we got had a lot more to it than just trans 101 i'd want future characters to be similarly defined by a lot more than their trans-ness. that is to say, thieves or mages or artisans or whatever whose characterization is subtle, like deploying a trans voice actor and designing them with a trans physicality.
I think one issue that ESO "struggles" with representing trans people, is that... Well, Gay couples are treated absolutely no differently, so I wonder if trans people might be treated the same? I always loved that ESO was so gay friendly, but if trans people can use magic to transition, and no one is a jerk about it, you pretty much never know. My two cents on that anyway.
That's fair and that's why I said the characterization should be fairly subtle, as it often is in real life. At the same time, Alchemy has post-quest dialog that discusses different ways in which people transition in-universe, so there's space to explore these narratives and how they manifest in different ways in Tamriel. I think it could be interesting.logarifmik wrote: »Personally, I found "Murder In Lillandril" much more better written, than the quest discussed here. Narrative of "Manor of Masques" is... cute, but I guess that's all I have to say about it. And, as I see it, Larydel motivation to become Alchemy is not a feeling wrong about his gender, but obsession with art. Or did he said different somewhere? I fail to recall it, really. Besides, his personality is more likely a reference to travesti, not transgenders.
Also, have you, guys and gals, ever noticed, that all "non-formal" characters are necessarily good? If this become part of the lore and one of the main trend in the western writing tradition, why not to make some badass gays/transgenders as well? More interesting and fair approach, no?
Alchemy uses she/her pronouns.Vulsahdaal wrote: »platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
Im not trans, but wasnt taken in by the others. I dont think trans or cis had much to do with it.I believed it was Alchemy right away and Ill explain why. When questioning the others, one of them, I forgot which one though lol, mentioned that after being 'selected' there was a celebration involving costumes, makeup, perfumes etc.. I remember reading in the book, that the brother came home smelling of perfume etc one night. I then figured the brother had 'made it' and was no longer a 'hopeful', which ruled out the others, except for Alchemy.
This said, I still am confused as to what some others are talking about, I think I missed some things? Contrary to what some here say, to the best of my recollection, the sister never found out which one was her brother. When I told her I believed it was Alchemy, she denied it and said it was not possible. There was no 'affectionate hug' I remember or being called 'little sister'?
After I spoke with Alchemy I suggested that it would be best to wait until after the sister left and then write her a note explaining, and it was agreed. The sister wasnt too happy, that her brother sent the message rather than telling her in person but said she would leave.
I either missed a part of this quest, or perhaps it has different endings?
I didn't mean that all cis people would fall for it, just that there was an anecdotal correlation. Also, there's a different ending if you tell Alchemy to tell her sister in person. They hug and say some affirmational things.Edited by platonicidealgirlfriend on June 5, 2018 12:39AM0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭Eh? The person's transgender?
I just thought it all came down to an illusionary trick or whatever. And honestly, I think I'll see it as that. A case of actor illusionary tricks as opposed to... I don't know, Alchemy using surgery to become a lady with breasts and everything.
[Edit to remove bait]Edited by [Deleted User] on June 5, 2018 1:29AM1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭[edited to remove quote]
Nobody is "assigning" male or female, your sex is determined at birth based on your physical characteristics, which doctors get right over 99.9% of the time (only in some intersex cases they are wrong, but that's a much smaller group than the people identifying as trans, and they aren't necessarily all part of the trans community either). That source you consider "neutral" is anything but that, because it would't use the propaganda language of the LGBTQIA2S+ lobby to describe something if it was neutral, it would use terms reflecting biological reality. And since the only way "male" and "female" are useful terms is if they in some way describe biological reality, that's how most people use the terms. So you attacking people for using the terms properly just makes you look like a /pol/ meme of a trans person, which is, if you don't know what that means, not very flattering.
Either gender reflects biology, in which case the person you are responding to is absolutely justified in using the terms the way he did, or it is no different from the identities of "goth", "gamer", "christian" or "football fan", because all it says about you is what you wear, how you speak and how you view the world, in which case your objections are as trivial as a goth complaining about being mistaken for an emo.
So to put it in terms that people could understand who do not spend their lives in tumblr echo chambers reading blogs about the plight of plantkins and dragonkins... Alchemy was born a male, but wanted to be a woman, so he decided to use magic to achieve that. Luckily in the world of The Elder Scrolls magic is commonplace, otherwise I would fully expect Sheogorath to be involved...Edited by ZOS_JesC on June 5, 2018 1:25PM3 -
fastolfv_ESO✭✭✭✭✭moderators seemed to have only removed any negative feedback, nice job censoring anything negative on the forums2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭fastolfv_ESO wrote: »moderators seemed to have only removed any negative feedback, nice job censoring anything negative on the forums
Its a thread thanking ZOS for doing a good job on trans representation. They do tend to moderate those pretty heavily.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
[edited to remove quote]
Nobody is "assigning" male or female, your sex is determined at birth based on your physical characteristics, which doctors get right over 99.9% of the time (only in some intersex cases they are wrong, but that's a much smaller group than the people identifying as trans, and they aren't necessarily all part of the trans community either). That source you consider "neutral" is anything but that, because it would't use the propaganda language of the LGBTQIA2S+ lobby to describe something if it was neutral, it would use terms reflecting biological reality. And since the only way "male" and "female" are useful terms is if they in some way describe biological reality, that's how most people use the terms. So you attacking people for using the terms properly just makes you look like a /pol/ meme of a trans person, which is, if you don't know what that means, not very flattering.
Either gender reflects biology, in which case the person you are responding to is absolutely justified in using the terms the way he did, or it is no different from the identities of "goth", "gamer", "christian" or "football fan", because all it says about you is what you wear, how you speak and how you view the world, in which case your objections are as trivial as a goth complaining about being mistaken for an emo.
So to put it in terms that people could understand who do not spend their lives in tumblr echo chambers reading blogs about the plight of plantkins and dragonkins... Alchemy was born a male, but wanted to be a woman, so he decided to use magic to achieve that. Luckily in the world of The Elder Scrolls magic is commonplace, otherwise I would fully expect Sheogorath to be involved...
I'll give this a try, even though the situation with the actual commenters has already been resolved upthread.
There's a significant difference between saying "So-and-so was born a man but wanted to be a woman so became a woman due to magic/whatever" and "So-and-So is a woman, assigned male at birth, and wanted to change their appearance through magic/whatever." The first implies that its merely "wanting" to be a woman rather than actually being a woman regardless of outside appearance.
When someone says "I'm a woman, who happens to be transgender," its polite to take them at their word. She is a woman, who identifies as a woman, who was assigned male at birth.
But in any case, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that transgender women like Alchemy who don't have access to magic are touched by Sheogorath.Edited by ZOS_JesC on June 5, 2018 1:26PM3 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since there seems to be some confusion about whether or not Alchemy really is trans and what her primary motivation was for joining the House of Reveries, I have screenshotted her entire post-quest dialogue and placed it here below the spoiler warning.It seems obvious to me, given the following, that she is absolutely trans, but that her primary motivation for joining the House of Reveries was because she wanted to be an actress. Her being trans seems to be just another facet of the quest that adds nuance to the story.
Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster4 -
PrayingSeraph✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
[edited to remove quote]
I'll give this a try, even though the situation with the actual commenters has already been resolved upthread.
There's a significant difference between saying "So-and-so was born a man but wanted to be a woman so became a woman due to magic/whatever" and "So-and-So is a woman, assigned male at birth, and wanted to change their appearance through magic/whatever." The first implies that its merely "wanting" to be a woman rather than actually being a woman regardless of outside appearance.
When someone says "I'm a woman, who happens to be transgender," its polite to take them at their word. She is a woman, who identifies as a woman, who was assigned male at birth.
But in any case, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that transgender women like Alchemy who don't have access to magic are touched by Sheogorath.
Its certainly more polite to refer to people how they want to be referred as, but the above poster is correct. You arent "assigned" male or female really, rather its more a confirmation of what your sex is. Saying "assign" makes it sound misleadingly like the doctor just arbitrarily chose what sex you are, when that isn't the case. A person can be trans gender, but they cannot be transsex. Sex is biological, nowadays gender is social construct.
In regards to thread topic, as a console player I have not played it but I hope it comes off as a natural inclusion rather than feeling like part of a diversity quota. Much rather it be a last of us than a bioware.
Edited by ZOS_JesC on June 5, 2018 1:26PM1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
it's a good start and nice to finally see the T represented where before we really only had LGB and a handful of borderline offensive facsimiles, like the elf or whatever that wanted to be a khajiit. i'd like to see more, though, and while the house of reveries quest we got had a lot more to it than just trans 101 i'd want future characters to be similarly defined by a lot more than their trans-ness. that is to say, thieves or mages or artisans or whatever whose characterization is subtle, like deploying a trans voice actor and designing them with a trans physicality.
I think one issue that ESO "struggles" with representing trans people, is that... Well, Gay couples are treated absolutely no differently, so I wonder if trans people might be treated the same? I always loved that ESO was so gay friendly, but if trans people can use magic to transition, and no one is a jerk about it, you pretty much never know. My two cents on that anyway.
That's fair and that's why I said the characterization should be fairly subtle, as it often is in real life. At the same time, Alchemy has post-quest dialog that discusses different ways in which people transition in-universe, so there's space to explore these narratives and how they manifest in different ways in Tamriel. I think it could be interesting.logarifmik wrote: »Personally, I found "Murder In Lillandril" much more better written, than the quest discussed here. Narrative of "Manor of Masques" is... cute, but I guess that's all I have to say about it. And, as I see it, Larydel motivation to become Alchemy is not a feeling wrong about his gender, but obsession with art. Or did he said different somewhere? I fail to recall it, really. Besides, his personality is more likely a reference to travesti, not transgenders.
Also, have you, guys and gals, ever noticed, that all "non-formal" characters are necessarily good? If this become part of the lore and one of the main trend in the western writing tradition, why not to make some badass gays/transgenders as well? More interesting and fair approach, no?
Alchemy uses she/her pronouns.Vulsahdaal wrote: »platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
Im not trans, but wasnt taken in by the others. I dont think trans or cis had much to do with it.I believed it was Alchemy right away and Ill explain why. When questioning the others, one of them, I forgot which one though lol, mentioned that after being 'selected' there was a celebration involving costumes, makeup, perfumes etc.. I remember reading in the book, that the brother came home smelling of perfume etc one night. I then figured the brother had 'made it' and was no longer a 'hopeful', which ruled out the others, except for Alchemy.
This said, I still am confused as to what some others are talking about, I think I missed some things? Contrary to what some here say, to the best of my recollection, the sister never found out which one was her brother. When I told her I believed it was Alchemy, she denied it and said it was not possible. There was no 'affectionate hug' I remember or being called 'little sister'?
After I spoke with Alchemy I suggested that it would be best to wait until after the sister left and then write her a note explaining, and it was agreed. The sister wasnt too happy, that her brother sent the message rather than telling her in person but said she would leave.
I either missed a part of this quest, or perhaps it has different endings?
I didn't mean that all cis people would fall for it, just that there was an anecdotal correlation. Also, there's a different ending if you tell Alchemy to tell her sister in person. They hug and say some affirmational things.
if you pick that ending does sister still go on tosapiachs, or does she stay behind? my main motivation for suggesting that alchemy writes a letter was to make sure that both of them get to live their authentic lives, and I was worried, along with alchemy that if they talk now, she might stay behind.dirty worthless casual.
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Streega✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like how they did this quest on the whole. The difficulty with introducing trans characters in worlds where the term doesn't exist is whether you address it at all. The trans people I know who generally pass don't want to get to clocked going about their daily lives but then this doesn't help with visibility.
Creating a fun quest where you discover the sexual identity of a character as part of the story line gives you a reason to know the character is a trans woman without her walking up to you and saying "Hello, everyone thought I was a boy but, I've always known I'm a woman." She can't even say she was assigned male at birth or simply that she is a trans woman in this setting so it become even more clumsy when you have to spell it out in fantasy language but I think they did well here. I do have to point out though that this would be a nightmare scenario for a trans person in real life. Some nobody poking around their place of work trying to clock them so they could decide whether to spill the secret that they're keeping for whatever reason. Still, if we go in with the assumption that the player just wants to help reunite a family, we can forgive them for being unbelievably nosey.
I like how the post quest dialogue was optional because it was a little heavy on the "education". As a gay guy, I kind of roll my eyes just a little when a game tries to teach me about LGBT issues (mostly performed by cis-het actors) but I appreciate it's not really for me. It's for people that want to know more or just want to spend more time with a character like themselves. I like the fact that they didn't "hide" the character's sexual identity or leave it ambiguous but finding out more was up to the player.
The only thing that sort of bothered me was the fact that Alchemy came across a bit like a magical drag queen. I mean she is a performer, she isn't playing the part of a woman but she is playing the part of Alchemy. She says that she will likely change her name again at some point and you can tell from the difference in her dialogue when you first meet her and when you talk to her later that her natural persona is very different to Alchemy's. A lot of trans women start off doing drag either for fun or professionally but just as many (probably most) don't dress as women in public until they are ready to start transitioning. It's not the worst stereotype (queens rock) but it is a stereotype that all trans women are performers with over-the-top personalities because people tend to conflate the two things.
Still, I though they did a great job over all.
Read your spoiler, im not apart of any of this really. Its an interesting read and I noticed the quest myself and Im not even gay or trans or anything like that.
I will say one thing; I feel like alchemy coming across as a magical drag queen is just rather how you precieve things. Honestly they did this quest extremely well which suprised me like with most games I expected it too be shoved in my face and told too like it even if the quest was bad, this quest did neither and was actually fun and interesting to guess whos who (I failed to guess alchemy though I imagine some of you got it).
I appreciate the fact that for once this entire thing was not shoved in my face, it was there in the background hidden in plain sight just like everyone else - it wasnt forceful, it wasn't intrusive and it was respectful generally to all. Kinda makes me sad actually somewhat wish it was like that in our world and not just in an MMO. Its how it should be at least, sexuality and being proud of it shouldn't be the main focus of a person all the time it doesn't define them. What matters should be the people themselves, just unfortunate today that it seems much harder for people to be themselves without having to "represent" I often feel like that isn't people being them they're just pushing for something constantly which bothers me. Push too hard and what you're pushing for pushes back etc. I guess "trying too hard" would be one of those statements accurate statements lol.
I dont know if anyone considers me out of line for saying anything like that, just my two cents as you know probably the only straight male in the thread lol
I couldn't agree more. I'm so pleased to see how nobody in Tamriel makes a fuss about being gay (at least I didn't encounter such a thing), it's just normal. I hope we can finally achieve this stage in our reality, when my preferences are mine and nobody's else business, until I decide to share it with somebody.
As for Alchemy - I didn't perceive her as transgender at first. For me she was just an illusion of a powerful mage trying to hide from unwanted future. Now, when I know her true motives, still the only thing that matters is her well being and happiness, not her gender.
I can understand how important this quest is for transgender folks, but please, stop slapping LGBTQ sticker on everything. It's a wonderful story, just enjoy it.⊂(￣(工)￣)⊃ Don't-Care-Bear ⊂(￣(工)￣)⊃PC EU "House Tertia" - Friendly Guild for Mature Folks (housetertia.com)
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mesmerizedish✭✭✭✭✭platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
it's a good start and nice to finally see the T represented where before we really only had LGB and a handful of borderline offensive facsimiles, like the elf or whatever that wanted to be a khajiit. i'd like to see more, though, and while the house of reveries quest we got had a lot more to it than just trans 101 i'd want future characters to be similarly defined by a lot more than their trans-ness. that is to say, thieves or mages or artisans or whatever whose characterization is subtle, like deploying a trans voice actor and designing them with a trans physicality.
I think one issue that ESO "struggles" with representing trans people, is that... Well, Gay couples are treated absolutely no differently, so I wonder if trans people might be treated the same? I always loved that ESO was so gay friendly, but if trans people can use magic to transition, and no one is a jerk about it, you pretty much never know. My two cents on that anyway.
That's fair and that's why I said the characterization should be fairly subtle, as it often is in real life. At the same time, Alchemy has post-quest dialog that discusses different ways in which people transition in-universe, so there's space to explore these narratives and how they manifest in different ways in Tamriel. I think it could be interesting.logarifmik wrote: »Personally, I found "Murder In Lillandril" much more better written, than the quest discussed here. Narrative of "Manor of Masques" is... cute, but I guess that's all I have to say about it. And, as I see it, Larydel motivation to become Alchemy is not a feeling wrong about his gender, but obsession with art. Or did he said different somewhere? I fail to recall it, really. Besides, his personality is more likely a reference to travesti, not transgenders.
Also, have you, guys and gals, ever noticed, that all "non-formal" characters are necessarily good? If this become part of the lore and one of the main trend in the western writing tradition, why not to make some badass gays/transgenders as well? More interesting and fair approach, no?
Alchemy uses she/her pronouns.Vulsahdaal wrote: »platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »alchemy is wonderful. it's interesting to see that some cis players were taken in by the red herrings, as I and the trans players I know who did the quest all seem to have seen right through them.
Im not trans, but wasnt taken in by the others. I dont think trans or cis had much to do with it.I believed it was Alchemy right away and Ill explain why. When questioning the others, one of them, I forgot which one though lol, mentioned that after being 'selected' there was a celebration involving costumes, makeup, perfumes etc.. I remember reading in the book, that the brother came home smelling of perfume etc one night. I then figured the brother had 'made it' and was no longer a 'hopeful', which ruled out the others, except for Alchemy.
This said, I still am confused as to what some others are talking about, I think I missed some things? Contrary to what some here say, to the best of my recollection, the sister never found out which one was her brother. When I told her I believed it was Alchemy, she denied it and said it was not possible. There was no 'affectionate hug' I remember or being called 'little sister'?
After I spoke with Alchemy I suggested that it would be best to wait until after the sister left and then write her a note explaining, and it was agreed. The sister wasnt too happy, that her brother sent the message rather than telling her in person but said she would leave.
I either missed a part of this quest, or perhaps it has different endings?
I didn't mean that all cis people would fall for it, just that there was an anecdotal correlation. Also, there's a different ending if you tell Alchemy to tell her sister in person. They hug and say some affirmational things.
if you pick that ending does sister still go on tosapiachs, or does she stay behind? my main motivation for suggesting that alchemy writes a letter was to make sure that both of them get to live their authentic lives, and I was worried, along with alchemy that if they talk now, she might stay behind.
She still goes off to Lillandril to become a Sapiarch.1 -
logarifmik✭✭✭✭✭
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See? These are best examples one can come up with and they are ridiculous. Ton of gays and most of them are damn saints! I had my hopes with "Murder in Lillandrill", but no, Emile is an another saint. Such approach forms false expectations, cliche, not good for writing as whole, not good at all.logarifmik wrote: »Personally, I found "Murder In Lillandril" much more better written, than the quest discussed here. Narrative of "Manor of Masques" is... cute, but I guess that's all I have to say about it. And, as I see it, Larydel motivation to become Alchemy is not a feeling wrong about his gender, but obsession with art. Or did he said different somewhere? I fail to recall it, really. Besides, his personality is more likely a reference to travesti, not transgenders.
Also, have you, guys and gals, ever noticed, that all "non-formal" characters are necessarily good? If this become part of the lore and one of the main trend in the western writing tradition, why not to make some badass gays/transgenders as well? More interesting and fair approach, no?
There are a ton of gay couples. The only "bad" ones I can think of off the top of my head are a pirate in.... One of the starter zones I think? It's been a while. And Vanessa from the thieves guild. But I don't really keep track.EU PC: @logarifmik | Languages: Русский, English
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mjharper✭✭✭✭PrayingSeraph wrote: »[edite to remove quote]
Its certainly more polite to refer to people how they want to be referred as, but the above poster is correct. You arent "assigned" male or female really, rather its more a confirmation of what your sex is. Saying "assign" makes it sound misleadingly like the doctor just arbitrarily chose what sex you are, when that isn't the case. A person can be trans gender, but they cannot be transsex. Sex is biological, nowadays gender is social construct.
In regards to thread topic, as a console player I have not played it but I hope it comes off as a natural inclusion rather than feeling like part of a diversity quota. Much rather it be a last of us than a bioware.
Saying you're 'confirmed' rather than 'assigned' assumes that biological sex is entirely binary, which it isn't. Intersex people have been assigned the sex considered appropriate by doctors for many, many years; it's only recently that sex-assignment surgery on infants has started to become illegal in some countries.
Gender isn't necessarily binary. Biological sex isn't necessarily binary. And they don't always overlap.Edited by ZOS_JesC on June 5, 2018 1:28PM2
This discussion has been closed.