I do not have the exact dialogue for darien meeting a character that hasn't met him before but it changes to him saying that in oblivion time flows differently

ak_pvp wrote: »

Just like my PC mass murdering everything isn't canon either.

Sorta is actually. Alternate timelines are a thing in TES. Whole branch of magic involving it. IIRC the plot of a mobile game revolved around it.

ak_pvp wrote: »

I don't see how that works at all.

Time flows differently in daedric relms because no influence from akatosh, that does not mean it flows different for daedra outside of it. What he is saying, is that you will go to coldharbor in the future, and meet darien, who has already been there, and plopped to the current timeline meridia wants you to be.

Either way, not a dragon break. Just not canon. That is a thing you know. Patching things up for the player of an MMO doesn't mean its canon in some way. Just like my PC mass murdering everything isn't canon either.

As for cadwells, I am pretty sure that as of 1tam, the closest to canon is either; Meridia sent you back in time, which they can do, take you to their realm where time is different, then drop you back in nirn. Either that or everything just happens before coldharbour, which IMO fits better.

It is canon, Matt Firor stated it is canon in an interview, presumably with the approval of Bethesda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNUCtNOp5dQ

Barring the IP owners contradicting that at some point, it is canon. Simply how intellectual property laws work.

veloSylraptor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I don't see how that works at all.

Time flows differently in daedric relms because no influence from akatosh, that does not mean it flows different for daedra outside of it. What he is saying, is that you will go to coldharbor in the future, and meet darien, who has already been there, and plopped to the current timeline meridia wants you to be.

Either way, not a dragon break. Just not canon. That is a thing you know. Patching things up for the player of an MMO doesn't mean its canon in some way. Just like my PC mass murdering everything isn't canon either.

As for cadwells, I am pretty sure that as of 1tam, the closest to canon is either; Meridia sent you back in time, which they can do, take you to their realm where time is different, then drop you back in nirn. Either that or everything just happens before coldharbour, which IMO fits better.

It is canon, Matt Firor stated it is canon in an interview, presumably with the approval of Bethesda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNUCtNOp5dQ

Barring the IP owners contradicting that at some point, it is canon. Simply how intellectual property laws work.

I know ESO is canon. But this specific line from Darien isn't, since ESO (bar craglorn) is canon in order of release, that specific dialogue is patch up. Should have made that more clear.^^

ak_pvp wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I don't see how that works at all.

Time flows differently in daedric relms because no influence from akatosh, that does not mean it flows different for daedra outside of it. What he is saying, is that you will go to coldharbor in the future, and meet darien, who has already been there, and plopped to the current timeline meridia wants you to be.

Either way, not a dragon break. Just not canon. That is a thing you know. Patching things up for the player of an MMO doesn't mean its canon in some way. Just like my PC mass murdering everything isn't canon either.

As for cadwells, I am pretty sure that as of 1tam, the closest to canon is either; Meridia sent you back in time, which they can do, take you to their realm where time is different, then drop you back in nirn. Either that or everything just happens before coldharbour, which IMO fits better.

It is canon, Matt Firor stated it is canon in an interview, presumably with the approval of Bethesda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNUCtNOp5dQ

Barring the IP owners contradicting that at some point, it is canon. Simply how intellectual property laws work.

I know ESO is canon. But this specific line from Darien isn't, since ESO (bar craglorn) is canon in order of release, that specific dialogue is patch up. Should have made that more clear.^^

Doesn't work like that. The entire game is canon.

Loremaster Lawrence signs off on every bit of story and dialogue and he works with Bethesda on a weekly basis for their input as well.

It's all canon.

An interesting hypothesis indeed. Thanks for sharing! I like it much more, than the pure Dragon Break explanation. Those two could work together from this perspective. I know at least several fantasy/sci-fi novels, where people live in constantly changing world, and most of them are not able to notice it. So, usually common folk can't notice any changes, only a bunch of chosen ones or some beings from the other realm are able to tell the difference. Here, during the Dragon Break, I suppose, common people behave in the same manner; they able to live in one particular timeline and know nothing about the others. The question is how will daedra, as a being from other realm, where there is no time, behave during it? Guess, we have an answer now.

Though, I see at least one weak spot. The acquaintanceship of Razum-dar and Naryu. In "The Sweetroll Killer" we see, that they both know Vestige and they know each other, but how it can be, if those two should be from the different time lines? Let me explain this moment. They can know each other, sure, but if hypothesis is right, then only one of them is able to know Vestige. If they both know him, then they are from the different time lines. So, they are daedras too?! Weird. Did I miss something? How it applies here?

Phage wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

veloSylraptor wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I don't see how that works at all.

Time flows differently in daedric relms because no influence from akatosh, that does not mean it flows different for daedra outside of it. What he is saying, is that you will go to coldharbor in the future, and meet darien, who has already been there, and plopped to the current timeline meridia wants you to be.

Either way, not a dragon break. Just not canon. That is a thing you know. Patching things up for the player of an MMO doesn't mean its canon in some way. Just like my PC mass murdering everything isn't canon either.

As for cadwells, I am pretty sure that as of 1tam, the closest to canon is either; Meridia sent you back in time, which they can do, take you to their realm where time is different, then drop you back in nirn. Either that or everything just happens before coldharbour, which IMO fits better.

It is canon, Matt Firor stated it is canon in an interview, presumably with the approval of Bethesda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNUCtNOp5dQ

Barring the IP owners contradicting that at some point, it is canon. Simply how intellectual property laws work.

I know ESO is canon. But this specific line from Darien isn't, since ESO (bar craglorn) is canon in order of release, that specific dialogue is patch up. Should have made that more clear.^^

Doesn't work like that. The entire game is canon.

Loremaster Lawrence signs off on every bit of story and dialogue and he works with Bethesda on a weekly basis for their input as well.

It's all canon.

What if the Loremaster ever gets Alzheimers and starts writing something old but forgets he already wrote it and signs off on it ?

logarifmik wrote: »

Though, I see at least one weak spot. The acquaintanceship of Razum-dar and Naryu. In "The Sweetroll Killer" we see, that they both know Vestige and they know each other, but how it can be, if those two should be from the different time lines? Let me explain this moment. They can know each other, sure, but if hypothesis is right, then only one of them is able to know Vestige. If they both know him, then they are from the different time lines. So, they are daedras too?! Weird. Did I miss something? How it applies here?

... Are they're not allowed to have lives outside of the Vestige? Both are cloak and dagger types. They could have just run into each other once upon a time.

Aliyavana wrote: »

The vestige was at three places at once doing cadwells silver and gold and landed in all 3 faction zones

If it is a Dragon Break, then every single Vestige ever played could be happening simultaneously while still being the same person, and all happening in the blink of an eye.

... I mean, Dragon Breaks basically amount to reality glitching out and going completely insane.

Though really, I'm not really sure what the issue with "canon" even is here. AFAIK the effects of Dragon Breaks are retroactive. I mean, ESO is set way before Daggerfall, but as far as I can tell the lands of the Daggerfall Covenant is still in the altered form they were left after the Warp in the West. AKA: not composed on like dozens of kingdoms, five hundred+ cities. Much less small towns, and its truly insane bandit problem.

This theory makes so much more sense, as we travel in time all the time. For example when you do White gold tower and Imperial City Prison, you travel into the future. Because after White Gold Tower is concluded, the Imperial City sky clears and the Daedra are driven back.

However as we know from dialogue from the Psijic Questline, the Imperial City is STILL conquered by Daedra at the time Summerset takes place. This could mean, that the Anchor is gone, but Daedra still roam the streets. Or it actually means, that Molag-Bal's invasion is not yet over as we thought. It is mentioned several times during that questline, that Molag-Bal is still active on Tamriel and that the planemelt has yet to end entirely.

We should not view this as an actual travel in time though. More like, that we are playing in a future or past event when we do those dungeons or activities.

Interesting thought, but I don't think it's a satisfying explanation. A few things might be explained away by lore and stuff like this, but mostly the different stories really are inconsistent and there's no feeling of continuation between story-lines, on the contrary you meet people who are supposed to be dead and nobody important (but maybe a few side-quest characters) will ever remember your earlier deeds if it's not from the same story.
In my view, for role-playing you just gotta re-write half of the stuff in your mind or play another game.

logarifmik wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Though, I see at least one weak spot. The acquaintanceship of Razum-dar and Naryu. In "The Sweetroll Killer" we see, that they both know Vestige and they know each other, but how it can be, if those two should be from the different time lines? Let me explain this moment. They can know each other, sure, but if hypothesis is right, then only one of them is able to know Vestige. If they both know him, then they are from the different time lines. So, they are daedras too?! Weird. Did I miss something? How it applies here?

Aliyavana wrote: »

The vestige was at three places at once doing cadwells silver and gold and landed in all 3 faction zones

Shgon_Dunstan wrote: »

... Are they're not allowed to have lives outside of the Vestige? Both are cloak and dagger types. They could have just run into each other once upon a time.

Guess, I wasn't clear enough here. Alright, let me explain more.

Let us asume, that Razum-dar and Naryu live in the same timeline A. They met, know each other, have common past. During his travels, Vestige in the timeline A can meet only one of them, though, because, as all we know, the first character is available in the Aldmeri Dominion zones and the second one in the Ebonheart Pact zones. Vestige could only visit those two zones in two differenent timelines, lets denote the second timeline as B.

Therefore, if Razum-dar and Naryu know each other, they live in A, but only one of them is able to meet Vestige before "The Sweetroll Killer" quest. In opposite, if Razum-dar and Naryu both met Vestige before, they consequently live in A and B, respectively, and not necessarily know each other. Anyway, they can't share the same past about Vestige, while exist in the same timeline as we see during this quest from the DB DLC. One of them must be from the other timeline. And yes, consequently there are at least two copies of Naryu and Razum-dar, the Friend and the Foe.

By "met Vestige before" here I mean their common adventures during main alliance questline. Just try to remember dialogues from the quest. They speaking like they both know the same Vestige very well. So, if we assume OP's hypothesis true, there are still problems with the writing, story falling apart anyway, and both "daedra time" and "Dragon Break" should have some extra qualities to work properly as deus ex machina.

If I missing something, please, explain on this example, because I fail to see how those concepts should work here.

You are assuming the vestige cannot be present at both places at the same time. A lot of the continuity issues between quests seem to insist on the assumption of a linear time. While we definitely still travel through time in a linear way (the reason we have all these coherent quest narratives), it does appear as if we can travel through time as well as space (as implied by the wayshrine).

Ideas hinting this has been mentioned by the mage aspect in Craglorn. I'm sure there are other instances where Daedra or other similarly non mortal beings discuss the nature of time, but the mage aspect seem to be most relevant here. That is, whether or not you have done some particular things is irrelevant. Because you will always do them, not necessarily in chronological order, because you are no longer being bound by time (at least as strongly, as implied by the end of the Dark Brotherhood questline with the freezing and reversing of time not affecting you).

Think of it like your life as it is right now. Except instead of being forced to live through it linearly, you can skip and travel between points. You can decide to live as your 50 year old self, get bored then decide to be a teenager and live out your 16 year old self. Then you get overwhelmed by these new responsibilities, as teenagers do, and decide to live out your 4 year old self.

You're still gonna do what you're gonna do, you're just not constrained to do it in the chronological order we are accustomed to. Considering how Darien and the mage aspect both reference these ideas, and that you were granted power by Meridia to experience the rise of the other alliances, this is probably the best explanation. Also worth considering is how Sotha Sil perceives the world, particularly when referencing Almalexia, "She do what she does because she could not have done otherwise." Would also coincidentally explain how you can complete questlines non linearly and no one notices (although I think this is mostly a game mechanic). So you can think of the vestige as a spacetime traveler basically.

Oh my god we’re a big bunch of nerds. (Said with love because i’m loving this thread)

logarifmik wrote: »

Let us asume, that Razum-dar and Naryu live in the same timeline A. They met, know each other, have common past.

Actually, they do know each other. I'm from EP, and when doing the Messages Across Tamriel quest, when I was sent to invite Queen Ayrenn to the council, Razum-dar was standing at her side and I talked to him, he asked me to send his best wishes to Naryu and that he'd like to dance with her again.

The Queen was displeased, but he just laughed.

W-well... I think i'll remove this Clock - Tamriel Standart Time addon.

kind_hero wrote: »

There is no inconsistency. You are complicating things, because this is just an issue of how game is structured now, to be accessible to all players, not only to veteran rank ones, or those who completed the story line quests.

Since it is an open world and non leveled, you can start almost any quest in any order, which was not possible before Tamriel One. Also this is a DLC/chapter that has to sell, so placing the Summerset main quest after the soulless vestige main quest, would cut off a lot of players from experiencing its story.
Even more, you should complete all the other main quests which conclude to this one (Morrowind, Clockwork City) before starting the Summerset one. If those would be a perquisite, even more players would be left out.

So it is a consequence of open world gameplay, not an intended paradox. There are many examples like this. You can meet the dark elf dwemer relic hunter couple in Anvil before helping them in the Pact territories, or Crafty Lerisa in Kvatch before rescuing her crew in Stros M'kai.

This, the same way TES games can be played without ever doing the main quest still makes it cannon.
Worse you become the dragonborn then never bother to finish the main quest.
That is simply player actions not lore.

You are supposed to do quests in one order, else dialogues and stuff can get a bit weird. Nothing new, in Oblivion you was supposed to to the main quest early, waiting to after level 30 and it got harder because of scaling.

On top of that you have game-play mechanics, how can you have alts who has done the same quests at other times, they are in the same world as they put stuff in the bank. How can you farm an dungeon, you have just killed an named historical boss 3 times today.