Daedra + Humans + Elves, Oh my!

Ostacia · May 2018

Has there ever been an instance of a Daedra falling in love with an elf or a human? The Greek gods were known for doing this, so it's not out of the question. Or is it?

ArchMikem · May 2018

Daedra see all Mortals as lesser beings. Their favorite things to do is torture and kill Mortals, so i kinda doubt it.

AgmarTheUnrestful · May 2018

It is possible for Daedra to procreate (see Molag Grunda, the product of a union between Molag Bal and Azura), though the only recorded instance of a Daedra procreating with a mortal is the story of the creation of vampires in Tamriel: Molag Bal "profaned" a Nedic virgin, after which he shed a single drop of blood upon her brow; this caused her to pass into undeath, at which point she mutilated the people who tried to help her and turned them into the first vampires. Horror-stricken at what she had done and become, she cursed Molag Bal and attempted to plead with Arkay to take her back (i.e. cure her and forgive her); when Arkay refused, she cursed him. The quest to become a full-fledged vampire here, in ESO, explains all this in detail; it might not hurt to play through it to understand this a bit better (you can cure yourself by talking to a Priest of Arkay afterwards, if all you want to do is experience the story; all he requires is a small donation in gold to promote his and Arkay's good works).

As for actual love... no Daedra has ever been known to show anything but negative and primal emotions, though the aforementioned article on Molag Grunda states that she did have some kind of a relationship with a Frost Atronach, so it may very well be possible that Daedra can feel the same emotions mortals do; this could very well mean that they are not inherently evil... which could lead to some interesting stories...

TL;DR: There is only one recorded union between a Daedra and a mortal (Molag Bal and a Nedic virgin); this union created all the vampires that plague Tamriel, but especially the "pure strain" as seen in ESO. As for the emotion of love, no Daedra has been known to express anything but negative and primitive emotions, though it's not entirely ruled-out, either; it just hasn't been recorded.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2018

The quest "Saving Stibbons" in coldharbour has a bit of hot daedra-on-manservant action.

EDIT: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Saving_Stibbons

Read the notes!

Ostacia · May 2018

Thank you for your replies. I have done the vampire quest on several characters but didn't view that as Molag Bal "falling for" Lamae, at least not in the sense that I meant it. It's a good point to make, though, in that it does seem that Daedra have only "negative and primal emotions." And so Lamae isn't half-daedra; she became the Blood Matron. Hm, I guess there's nothing (in-game at least) that would lead someone to the conclusion that there could exist a being that is Half Daedra/Half Elf or Half Daedra/Half Human, Orc or what have you. Stibbons's seed notwithstanding, it could, admittedly, be interesting. I wonder if he finally succumbs? haha...

Tucker3711 · May 2018

Well... Maybe not with mortals... But Vivec has had some... "Contact" with a certain Daedra...
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_14
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_12

Be warned... It is not for the innocent children...

Ostacia · May 2018

Thanks, Tucker. Sadly, I got "Failed to open page" error. Must be spicy lol...

AgmarTheUnrestful · May 2018

Oh, Bal certainly felt nothing for Lamae; he was just doing what he does best, torture (and, perhaps, encroaching on Malacath's domain of curses). I don't think I implied that there were any feelings involved; I certainly didn't mean to, just that it is our only example of a union between mortals and Daedra, though most definitely not a good one...

Ostacia · May 2018

No, Agmar, you didn't imply that Bal felt anything for Lamae. I didn't take it that way and saw it as an example of, as you said, a union between mortals and Daedra. I suppose I was looking for something that doesn't exist in lore, at least not yet. Or maybe Aedra have the ability to "fall in love" with mortals...hm...it might be that my question is all wrong.

Tucker3711 · May 2018

@Wintergreen Fixed!

AgmarTheUnrestful · May 2018

@Wintergreen: You're fine, but, as you pointed out, no, no Daedra has yet to show feelings of love, or really any positive emotions, for that matter, except maybe for delight in getting their way with a mortal, though that wouldn't necessarily be a "positive" emotion, since the intent would be evil and often said mortal would not reciprocate.

As for Aedra, that's a definite possibility, especially since Mara is the Goddess of Love, and Dibella has cults devoted to erotic instruction. Stendarr could be another candidate for love, since He embodies Mercy and many other emotions associated with higher cognitive thought. Though the fact that the Aedra have lost most of their powers means that they cannot manifest physically in the Mundus very often, so, despite the fact that the Monomyth states that the Aedra assumed parental roles among themselves to fill the Mundus with life, being parents to demi-gods would be rather difficult, and it's also unknown if any mortal has ever visited Aetherius or one of the realms of the Aedra/Divines while alive, whether they returned or not.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2018

Only in the way a spider loves a fly .

Kierro · May 2018

"Love" would be pushing it, as a Daedra's love is different from mortal love, although as said Grunda had a Frost Atronauch lover, but yes a child can happen. The child is called a demiprince, they're the children of a Daedric Prince or Lord and a mortal. If you are a Roleplayer, you could say your character is a demiprince, we have skins that can make it convincing.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Demiprince

Ostacia · May 2018

@Kierro Interesting! I didn't know about the demiprinces but was thinking something like them should definitely exist. Lovely to know that they do.

I have less time to roleplay than I used to, but still do it in my head. One of my characters is somewhat, otherworldly, shall we say. Question: If demiprinces are mortal, would it be possible for one to become immortal via vampirism? If so, I think that's my character! lol....

gnarlyvandal · May 2018

Wintergreen wrote: »

Thank you for your replies. I have done the vampire quest on several characters but didn't view that as Molag Bal "falling for" Lamae, at least not in the sense that I meant it. It's a good point to make, though, in that it does seem that Daedra have only "negative and primal emotions." And so Lamae isn't half-daedra; she became the Blood Matron. Hm, I guess there's nothing (in-game at least) that would lead someone to the conclusion that there could exist a being that is Half Daedra/Half Elf or Half Daedra/Half Human, Orc or what have you. Stibbons's seed notwithstanding, it could, admittedly, be interesting. I wonder if he finally succumbs? haha...

Apparently altmer are the descendants of Auri-El (Akatosh), who is a descendent of the Aedra. So if the ‘good guys’ can procreate with mer and man, can’t see any reason why Daedra couldn’t

Ostacia · May 2018

Good point! I'd forgotten about the Altmer being descendants of Auri-El and that Auri-El = Akatosh. This is the first Elder Scrolls game I've played and there's so much to learn. Which High Elf deity would be equivalent to Dibella? I see she's listed as a deity only for Imperials, Bretons, and Nords. (That would be Mara; google is my friend, sorry)

Actually, upon further reading, Mara is not the equivalent or even semi-equivalent to Dibella.

Main Question: Do the Altmer not have a deity devoted to the arts and love as Dibella is?

AgmarTheUnrestful · May 2018

Basic breakdown of Imperial Divine = Altmeri Aedra:

Akatosh = Auriel (Auri-El is generally the spelling preferred by the Falmer (Snow Elves, natives of Skyrim) and Bosmer (Wood Elves, or "Tree-sap Folk" in their translations)
Mara = Mara
Dibella = Dibella
Kynareth = Kynareth ("Kyne" to the Nords)
Stendarr = Stendarr
Julianos = Magnus
Arkay = Arkay
Zenithar = Zenithar

Special note on Talos: He's only worshipped by Imperials and Nords (the Bretons have Ebonarm, while the Redguards have a religion completely different from those in Tamriel, though similarities still exist). Talos was originally a Nord, Breton, or Atmoran (accounts vary) (Atmora is the ancient home of the Nords, far to the north of Tamriel), full name Talos Stormcrown, who sought to conquer all of Tamriel in the 2E 890s. Upon his successful conquest (perhaps during), he took the Imperial name Tiber Septim, founding the Septim Dynasty of Emperors of the Third Era (the Third Era began on the 1st of Morning Star directly after Septim's conquest the year prior, 2E 896). Since this was an empire of Men, the Elves couldn't stand worshipping a human as a god, especially considering that their own religions state that only Elves can attempt to re-achieve apotheosis (Elves in TES claim that they are directly descended from the Gods, whom they call the "Aedra", which means "Ancestor" in Aldmeris, the language of the High Elves).

Note on the creator/trickster/tester god: He's most commonly known as "Lorkhan", which is his Elven name; he's also known as "Shezarr" to the Imperials, and "Shor" to the Nords (not sure what the Bretons call him).

Ostacia · May 2018

Thank you, but I am so confused!
Via: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Altmeri_Pantheon

Kierro · May 2018

If I remember right, Malacath is the corrupted excrement of Trinimac. It was Trinimac was defeated and eaten by... Molag Bal(?), the waste turned to Malacath.

Varana · May 2018

We also shouldn't be too literal about this. That the Altmer claim to be the "descendants" of Auri-El / Akatosh shouldn't be taken to mean that Auri-El had physical sex with someone (who exactly?). First, it's still only a claim by the Altmer - that it's written down somewhere doesn't mean it's true in the TES universe. And isn't is nice to be born from a god? Second, there are hints that the role of Auri-El has changed in Altmer society over time, and that being considered the ancestor of all Altmers is not necessarily the original version. And third, a god can bring about people in other way than sexual procreation. Like, just making them.

So generally, while something like Daedric sex may have happened now and then, I'd be generally a bit skeptical when it comes to claims like that. Making up entire genealogies of divine and half-divine beings (and claiming divine ancestry for themselves or their kings) has been a favourite pastime of humanity for millennia, and it's probably the same in Tamriel.
"Granny, where do vampires come from?" "Well, you know, there once was a beautiful maiden..." is, I think, the more likely origin of that Molag Bal - Lamae story.

AgmarTheUnrestful · May 2018

@Wintergreen: My advice: Head to the UESP's Lore-space; you'll have a field-day! The Unofficial Elder Scrolls pages is the best you can get for TES1-5 (not so great for ESO), plus all the lore in-between, including info on the minor spin-offs (Battlespire, Redguard, the old mobile adventures); for the various deities specifically, see the table here. Oh, and, while you're there, you might want to check out the free* downloads of Arena and Daggerfall; they're really fun games!

*Bethesda made Arena and Daggerfall freeware to commemorate the tenth and fifteenth anniversaries of TES; you'll specifically want ArenaSetup and DaggerfallSetup, as these are already configured to run in DOSBox, an MS-DOS emulator. For further help setting up DOSBox commands (specifically, shortcut keys, CPU emulation rate, machine/graphical emulation), just ask me on my talk-page! (Just be sure to hit "Add New Section" first, please; helps keep things organised)

@Kierro: Trinimac fought Boethiah, was stabbed in the back by Mephala, and then tortured by Boethiah, after which he came out mutilated, and took the name Malacath, and proceeded to reside over the Daedric realm known as the Ashpits (which was where he was banished to after his torture); Trinimac's followers were changed as well to appear more like Malacath.

@Varana: Agreed; while The Monomyth may state that the Aedra assumed parental roles, this is the story only the Altmer use; all other races seem to claim that they were simply "created" by the gods, rather than their literal offspring in the sense of having sexual intercourse. It's also known that the children of two deities will share the traits of their parents, which would mean, say, a race born from Stendarr and Mara would be merciful and loving, definitely not any race I've ever heard of, real or fictional.

ArchMikem · June 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

Daedra see all Mortals as lesser beings. Their favorite things to do is torture and kill Mortals, so i kinda doubt it.

I will say though that amongst all Dremora, the Dark Seducers are unusually tolerant of Mortals. Hell, the one inside Sanguines Demesne even THANKS you after helping her.

Ostacia · June 2018

@AgmarTheUnrestful Thank you for the link. I've bookmarked it and will have a gander after some coffee.

Ghanima_Atreides · June 2018

Varana wrote: »

So generally, while something like Daedric sex may have happened now and then, I'd be generally a bit skeptical when it comes to claims like that. Making up entire genealogies of divine and half-divine beings (and claiming divine ancestry for themselves or their kings) has been a favourite pastime of humanity for millennia, and it's probably the same in Tamriel.
"Granny, where do vampires come from?" "Well, you know, there once was a beautiful maiden..." is, I think, the more likely origin of that Molag Bal - Lamae story.

Well, Lamae is only reputed to have been the first; there are other examples of mortal women being turned in a similar way - Serana and Valerica from Dawnguard (Skyrim) who speak about it, albeit not in detail (but who can blame them?) but enough to make it clear what took place. They are known as Daughters of Coldharbour Although this is tactfully kept quiet in ESO, Molag Bal is also known as the King of...Non-Consensual Sex, to put it that way.

Harkon was granted the "gift" of pure vampirism by sacrificing 1000 innocents to Bal, and there is such an example in ESO too, Count Verandis Ravenwatch, although we aren't told what he did for the privilege.

So I think it's pretty safe to say vampirism does originate with Molag Bal and it does involve some pretty heinous acts.

But that doesn't imply a "relationship" of any sort, Bal created the first vampire to spite Arkay , master of life and death, who knew he couldn't undo it. Even his relationship with Vivec, or that of his so-called daughter Grunda and her Atronach lover should probably not be viewed through the lens of mortal concepts of affection and commitment, they likely have very little in common with them.

As Abnur Tharn points out, Daedra "mock our attachments" because they have no need for them. They are truly immortal.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2018

AgmarTheUnrestful wrote: »

It is possible for Daedra to procreate (see Molag Grunda, the product of a union between Molag Bal and Azura), though the only recorded instance of a Daedra procreating with a mortal is the story of the creation of vampires in Tamriel: Molag Bal "profaned" a Nedic virgin, after which he shed a single drop of blood upon her brow; this caused her to pass into undeath, at which point she mutilated the people who tried to help her and turned them into the first vampires. Horror-stricken at what she had done and become, she cursed Molag Bal and attempted to plead with Arkay to take her back (i.e. cure her and forgive her); when Arkay refused, she cursed him. The quest to become a full-fledged vampire here, in ESO, explains all this in detail; it might not hurt to play through it to understand this a bit better (you can cure yourself by talking to a Priest of Arkay afterwards, if all you want to do is experience the story; all he requires is a small donation in gold to promote his and Arkay's good works).

As for actual love... no Daedra has ever been known to show anything but negative and primal emotions, though the aforementioned article on Molag Grunda states that she did have some kind of a relationship with a Frost Atronach, so it may very well be possible that Daedra can feel the same emotions mortals do; this could very well mean that they are not inherently evil... which could lead to some interesting stories...

TL;DR: There is only one recorded union between a Daedra and a mortal (Molag Bal and a Nedic virgin); this union created all the vampires that plague Tamriel, but especially the "pure strain" as seen in ESO. As for the emotion of love, no Daedra has been known to express anything but negative and primitive emotions, though it's not entirely ruled-out, either; it just hasn't been recorded.

There's Umaril the Unfeathered. That's the only creature of this type that I can think of.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2018

Kierro wrote: »

If I remember right, Malacath is the corrupted excrement of Trinimac. It was Trinimac was defeated and eaten by... Molag Bal(?), the waste turned to Malacath.

Boethiah not Molag Bal and this was during the Chimer (proto-Dunmer) Velothi exodus.

Puking_Panda · June 2018

Don't think there's any mixed Daedra-Human/Elf offpspring, there's a bunch of cases of them falling in love(and Daedra being not so loving). There are characters which are said to be daughters or sons of Daedra like Molag Grunda or Fa-Nuit-Henbut they can just as likely be adopted. Most Daedric princes are genderless too which probably adds to the likelihood that they can't procreate.

There are a bunch of instances though where mortals become Daedra like the Hero of Kvatch and I am guessing Umaril the Unfeathered too as well as Aedra turning into Daedra like Meridia and Trinimac but never the other way around.

PrayingSeraph · June 2018

AgmarTheUnrestful wrote: »

Basic breakdown of Imperial Divine = Altmeri Aedra:

Akatosh = Auriel (Auri-El is generally the spelling preferred by the Falmer (Snow Elves, natives of Skyrim) and Bosmer (Wood Elves, or "Tree-sap Folk" in their translations)
Mara = Mara
Dibella = Dibella
Kynareth = Kynareth ("Kyne" to the Nords)
Stendarr = Stendarr
Julianos = Magnus
Arkay = Arkay
Zenithar = Zenithar

Special note on Talos: He's only worshipped by Imperials and Nords (the Bretons have Ebonarm, while the Redguards have a religion completely different from those in Tamriel, though similarities still exist). Talos was originally a Nord, Breton, or Atmoran (accounts vary) (Atmora is the ancient home of the Nords, far to the north of Tamriel), full name Talos Stormcrown, who sought to conquer all of Tamriel in the 2E 890s. Upon his successful conquest (perhaps during), he took the Imperial name Tiber Septim, founding the Septim Dynasty of Emperors of the Third Era (the Third Era began on the 1st of Morning Star directly after Septim's conquest the year prior, 2E 896). Since this was an empire of Men, the Elves couldn't stand worshipping a human as a god, especially considering that their own religions state that only Elves can attempt to re-achieve apotheosis (Elves in TES claim that they are directly descended from the Gods, whom they call the "Aedra", which means "Ancestor" in Aldmeris, the language of the High Elves).

Note on the creator/trickster/tester god: He's most commonly known as "Lorkhan", which is his Elven name; he's also known as "Shezarr" to the Imperials, and "Shor" to the Nords (not sure what the Bretons call him).

Magnus and Julianos are not the same. Julianos is an Aedra, and one of the Divines. Magnus was the leader of the magna ge. The reason Mer attribute magic with Magnus is that Magnus when he fled creation, punched the largest hole to Aetherius, which became the sun. Through this hole, magicka from Aetherius flowed into Nirn.

Ostacia · June 2018

Puking_Panda wrote: »

Don't think there's any mixed Daedra-Human/Elf offpspring, there's a bunch of cases of them falling in love(and Daedra being not so loving). There are characters which are said to be daughters or sons of Daedra like Molag Grunda or Fa-Nuit-Henbut they can just as likely be adopted. Most Daedric princes are genderless too which probably adds to the likelihood that they can't procreate.

There are a bunch of instances though where mortals become Daedra like the Hero of Kvatch and I am guessing Umaril the Unfeathered too as well as Aedra turning into Daedra like Meridia and Trinimac but never the other way around.

Interesting. So if mortals and Aedra can become Daedra, can Daedra become Aedra?

Puking_Panda · June 2018

Wintergreen wrote: »

Interesting. So if mortals and Aedra can become Daedra, can Daedra become Aedra?

There is a quest in Stormhaven where a Dremora tries to posess/take over the body of a human which is probably the closest you can get to that. I think Clivia Tharn was a case where that happened succesfully though she could have actually transformed herself into Molag Kena although then it would be another case of Aedra becoming Daedra and not the other way around.

So ye, as far as I know there's no case of Daedra turning into Aedric beings, not even in Lorebooks which mention some crazy stuff sometimes.