Why did they remove the ability to monitor short term buffs and debuffs?

dawnrise · April 2014

claudekennilol wrote: »

dawnrise wrote: »

Real fights don't allow one to know when enemies are about to attack, or the duration of the buffs or performance enhancing drugs they may have used.

Right, but in real life if you throw a drug at someone where you already know how long it's going to effect them then you already have this information available. We just want some way to track it rather than having to think about it.

True you have this knowledge...but how are you going to monitor this time? A watch? Probably unlikely. We know the duration of buffs and debuffs in eso, it's the ability to monitor them in exactness that is in question.

Jaburra · April 2014

claudekennilol wrote: »

No, his point was that you claimed WoW was the first when it wasn't. Then he proceeded to make other points which are related. You can't argue that WoW was the first when it wasn't.

I never claimed WoW was the first MMO with add-ons. I invite you to scroll back up and read please. I was merely throwing my two cents into the conversation as I had done earlier. My whole point is this (because apparently people are just bypassing this point all together): The devs have done something. You don't like it, move to another game. Game companies do not go into business to pander to a rather small portion of the game population. They take feedback and then they do what is best for the community as a whole, based on said feedback. Just because a small portion of the ESO community is complaining that they want add-ons because they have been spoiled by them for years, doesn't mean Zeni is just going to bend over backwards and do it. Like someone said before, Zeni has their own idea of a game philosophy and again, I applaud them for sticking to their guns so far. Maybe they will re-add this feature later on, maybe they won't. I'm here for the gameplay because I'm an ES freak, and I will support whatever decisions Zeni makes, because at the end of the day guys, it's their company, their game.

And that's the way the cookie crumbles...

dawnrise · April 2014

tbenda wrote: »

TheRedMage wrote: »

Elaithe wrote: »

They believe, wrongly, that their visual ques are designed well enough that you can accurately keep track of your buffs and debuffs without timers. What they don't say is that these visual ques overwrite each other, often don't work, and many visual ques share the same animations as others.

Agree'd, I often don't notice my shard procs because it doesn't stand out in lightning form

It'd be nice if these visual effects were more pronounced, in particular for rare or short-lived effects, since we're now expected to read the visual cues. The rare events (procs) and short-lived events (short-lived but potent debuffs or dots) are the most important pieces of information in a combat situation, far more important than the long-term buffs/debuffs, which you'd notice before they caused any significant hindrance anyway.

I agree completely. In the end, if visual monitoring utterly fails, then by all means allow the use of combat monitoring add-ons.

I think we as players are capable of at least trying to go outside the box of what has become the archetypical combat experience in mmos.

Persecom · April 2014

I do understand that ZOS does not want information to be available to us because they have a different vision for their game, but it still seems wrong to force some to have a certain play style.

Also, Elder Scrolls games are known for being modifiable, and for having a fantastic modding community. So, why would you limit the modders? As a business standpoint, I don't understand the reasoning behind this.

Jaburra · April 2014

Persecom wrote: »

I do understand that ZOS does not want information to be available to us because they have a different vision for their game, but it still seems wrong to force some to have a certain play style.

Also, Elder Scrolls games are known for being modifiable, and for having a fantastic modding community. So, why would you limit the modders? As a business standpoint, I don't understand the reasoning behind this.

My question is this. How is not having add-ons restricting players' play style??? Usually (and this is just me) I see play style as harcore, pvper, pve'er, crafter etc. In no way does not having add-ons in this game limit what you can do. You can still play the game how you want to (which is pretty much the core definition of play style).

And again I can completely understand and sympathize with people that want to "fine tune" their rotations etc, but again... if you are successfully killing your opponents, not losing a lot of health, and are able to sustain yourself in battle, then you are doing good. I fail to understand why people absolutely have to have add-ons to play properly. Granted the game does need a few adjustments to visual cues etc, but I'm pretty sure Zeni will work on this as time goes on. You all have to realize, the game was just released to early access, and isn't even "officially released" yet. There will be bugs, there will be glitches. Can any of you say that WoW's release back in 2001 was any better? How about Star Wars: ToR? Or Rift? They all had horrible releases.

Bottom line: Give Zeni time to get their ducks in a row, and get everything fine tuned. Too impatient to wait? Go back to another game.

Edit: Just to clarify, this post is not an attack on the quoted poster, just an observation.

Edit #2: And as a rebuttal against the statement "Elder Scrolls games are known for being modifiable" there one big difference there. Those are all single player console games. This is an MMO. Of course they aren't going to have the same modding capability in an MMO. That would almost certainly give some players the upper hand. And before anyone says "well they can just get the add-ons too", well just like some of you who can't see playing a game without add-ons, there are those who do not like to play with any at all. So basically the synopsis of this whole forum post is that some of you want something and feel strongly about it, and think that Zeni is trying to detriment your playing by taking it away. But think for a second, how would implementing all this that you want make those that don't want the add-ons feel? Zeni I think is doing something smart by keeping them out for the time being. It gives everyone the same equal playing field, as there are already advantages that some have over others (ie- better ping or computers over all)

claudekennilol · April 2014

dawnrise wrote: »

claudekennilol wrote: »

dawnrise wrote: »

Real fights don't allow one to know when enemies are about to attack, or the duration of the buffs or performance enhancing drugs they may have used.

Right, but in real life if you throw a drug at someone where you already know how long it's going to effect them then you already have this information available. We just want some way to track it rather than having to think about it.

True you have this knowledge...but how are you going to monitor this time? A watch? Probably unlikely. We know the duration of buffs and debuffs in eso, it's the ability to monitor them in exactness that is in question.

In real life? Well, in real life I wouldn't be throwing drugs around or fighting people so I really have no idea what I'd actually do in that situation.

On my computer, though, I automate/simplify as much as I can so I definitely would have a timer for such a thing. I didn't spend thousands of dollars on a gaming computer, monitors, gaming apparatuses, etc to not get the most of them.

Jaburra wrote: »

claudekennilol wrote: »

No, his point was that you claimed WoW was the first when it wasn't. Then he proceeded to make other points which are related. You can't argue that WoW was the first when it wasn't.

I never claimed WoW was the first MMO with add-ons. I invite you to scroll back up and read please.

Whatever, you may be right, I haven't read past the first line of any of these posts anyways. My stance is that I want this information available. I don't care what anyone else's stance is. If someone doesn't want it that's their prerogative. But I will tell anyone what my opinion is any place that it's related that I feel like posting.

Exosus · April 2014

I'm cool with not knowing what's up with enemy debuffs, and like someone else mentioned, there are probably/possibly addons that can approximate timers like that anyway if you really want a WoW-style UI thing going on. I really do appreciate not feeling pressured to watch enemy buffs and debuffs, and I think it makes combat feel a little more realistic, too. I can tell if that guy is on fire or not (well, except when the visual effects fail, which I think is something that should/will be polished as time goes on). I don't need to know if he has a temporary buff that will give his next attack +40 damage. That should be for HIM to know, and for me to find out.

I'm less cool with not knowing what's up with my own buffs and debuffs, and part of what confuses me about the choice to hide that data is that it's actually still listed in the character sheet. I don't even want timer info on my UI, to be honest; The last thing that I want is to be constantly reminded that I need to refresh my weapon enhancement spell thingy in 28 seconds, 27 seconds, 26 seconds... I do, however, want to be sure that I can tell when it's up and when it isn't. The visual cues right now just do not always work, and even when they do work, they're only useful for buffs and debuffs that you're familiar with. Give me the option to turn on (or make an addon to show) little active buff/debuff icons someplace on the screen that have no timers, but have descriptions of the effects on mouseover. Maybe those icons start to fade away in the last 10% of their duration.

Here's why I suggest this: Using a completely garbage made-up example, let's say a friend and I are in combat with Monster X and Monster 3. Suddenly, my Argonian is engulfed in purple fire! I'm not sure where it came from, which is ok, because that just means that I missed a visual cue someplace and that could totally happen in combat. My health doesn't seem to be dropping, and neither does my blue or green. So what's this fire doing to me?!? Maybe it's blinding me, making me less likely to hit what I'm aiming at. Maybe it's weakening my armor. Maybe it's giving me super-argonian strength! Maybe it's turning me Japanese...

Personally, I would notice those effects if they were on me when I was trying to fight Monsters X and 3. The point is that my character should know what it's doing to him, and if that isn't the case for purple fire in particular then the mouseover description should just read: "You are engulfed in mysterious purple fire and you have no idea what it's doing to you." I really do appreciate the organic combat experience that they're trying to preserve by keeping buff timers off our screens, but they're going to have to meet in the middle someplace eventually.

Why, you ask? Because elements of the community will flip their feces when we all get to the endgame content and this hasn't been readdressed. For those who keep saying "if you don't like it then go play something else, etc": We're not talking about Dev Almighty here and somehow forcibly coercing him into changing his holy vision. We're talking about a game development studio that wants to be viewed as one that listens to its player base. This ain't a movie, it's a video game with a subscription plan, and it requires an engaged, involved, and satisfied audience in order to be successful. The buff/debuff thing isn't that big of a deal right now, but it will be when the majority of players hit endgame content.

Pang · April 2014

Pawkette wrote: »

I just want to understand why you'd come to a new game, and expect to play it like whatever you were playing before? Why not just keep playing what you were playing? I don't comprehend this behavior.

Its common sense to think that if you have played MMOs before that a new one should have basic functions and features that ALL MMos have.

If I buy a new 2014 vehicle its not ok if it doesn't have A/C, Anti-Lock Brakes or Airbags. Saying "well its new and different so it doesn't need those things" is not an acceptable response.

Same applys here, when you play a new game its perfectly normal to expect it to have certain basic and standard functions.

Chosenlight_of_79b14_ESO · April 2014

Just a suggestion but since this is a paid game and as such, they do take the wants of their players rather seriously in order to make sure they're still getting your money... Just have those that really want this mechanic write in to Zen and let them know just how many do want it/or don't and let the numbers speak. Most times they will look at the numbers and decide money talks so hey we may wanna stick it back in etc etc. Especially if in higher levels the competitive dungeon runs get anything like the obsessive environment wow had lol. Just my 2 cents.

Jaburra · April 2014

claudekennilol wrote: »

Whatever, you may be right, I haven't read past the first line of any of these posts anyways. My stance is that I want this information available. I don't care what anyone else's stance is. If someone doesn't want it that's their prerogative. But I will tell anyone what my opinion is any place that it's related that I feel like posting.

Thank you for providing an excellent post to prove my point. You are basically saying you "demand" this information. Well "demand" all you want, again, as has been pointed out several times, this is Zeni's game, and they are going to do what they want. Why waste your breath on a forum when it's not going to go anywhere. And when you say you will tell anyone your opinion, that's great and absolutely allowed. But don't get butt hurt and defensive when someone else snaps right back with their own opinions.

Pang wrote:

Same applys here, when you play a new game its perfectly normal to expect it to have certain basic and standard functions.

Here's a question: How are add-ons a "standard" or "basic" function of an mmo. Add-ons are exactly that, additionals. That's like buying a car with all the little extras. Normally when you just buy the car it comes stock. That's what ESO is. It's stock. And this particular manufacturer may just decide not to add any additionals to their product. And that's their prerogative. To those of you saying it will kill their business, I beg to differ. As is seen in this entire forum post, there are a lot of us that are happy just the way the game is.

claudekennilol · April 2014

Jaburra wrote: »

Thank you for providing an excellent post to prove my point. You are basically saying you "demand" this information. Well "demand" all you want, again, as has been pointed out several times, this is Zeni's game, and they are going to do what they want. Why waste your breath on a forum when it's not going to go anywhere. And when you say you will tell anyone your opinion, that's great and absolutely allowed. But don't get butt hurt and defensive when someone else snaps right back with their own opinions.

Yeah I didn't say that at all.. You're more than welcomed to your own opinion and more than welcome to spout it out to whomever has ears to hear. This is a forum after all.

Do I want it? Yes. Am I going to cry/rage quit/get whatever "butthurt" is over it? Hell no. I'm an adult with a healthy outlook on life and have no reason overreact to such things.

Jaburra · April 2014

"Claudekennilol wrote:

Yeah I didn't say that at all.. You're more than welcomed to your own opinion and more than welcome to spout it out to whomever has ears to hear. This is a forum after all.

Do I want it? Yes. Am I going to cry/rage quit/get whatever "butthurt" is over it? Hell no. I'm an adult with a healthy outlook on life and have no reason overreact to such things.

Uh huh... "have no reason to overreact"... that's not what it seems like from all your previous posts. If you really are trying to just add to the intellectual discussion here, might I suggest a change in your writing tone then. And perhaps better information to supply than just "grr i want add-ons".

Edit: Also might I add, that if that's all you really are trying to garner out of this entire forum, then it might work better to send in a letter to Zeni, than waste space, and your own time. Like someone said before, if add-ons are what you all want, write them. Numbers speak for themselves and if you all band together and say something to them directly, you may be surprised at the outcome. Consistently saying the same thing over and over again on forums is the quickest way to get bypassed by devs, especially when you utilize childish language to paint the picture of your despair. I'm sure the Devs want constructive criticism and information, not whining. (And just to clarify again, the last portion of my statement was not in reference to the quoted poster, just making an observation in general about a lot of the posts contained within this particular thread)

claudekennilol · April 2014

Jaburra wrote: »

"Claudekennilol wrote:

Yeah I didn't say that at all.. You're more than welcomed to your own opinion and more than welcome to spout it out to whomever has ears to hear. This is a forum after all.

Do I want it? Yes. Am I going to cry/rage quit/get whatever "butthurt" is over it? Hell no. I'm an adult with a healthy outlook on life and have no reason overreact to such things.

Uh huh... "have no reason to overreact"... that's not what it seems like from all your previous posts. If you really are trying to just add to the intellectual discussion here, might I suggest a change in your writing tone then. And perhaps better information to supply than just "grr i want add-ons".

My writing tone is fine, thanks for noticing. And I don't really need to justify my wants and desires with information. I simply want the information available to me in a neat little box that sits on the screen and ticks down the time.

p.s. This is a perfectly adequate use of my time--conversing about a game I enjoy with others that also have opinions about the game. If you feel it's a waste of time you're more then welcome to stop reading/responding/both.

It's perfectly constructive for a user to say something they'd like out of a game. If no one did how would the devs know what the users want?

Wreaken · April 2014

I am fine with the whole visual aspect of it and all if it proves to work, but let us fast forward a little bit here to end game raiding content where you could potentially have 24 people casting on the same object.

Do you really expect to be able to visually see what's going on in regards to being able to monitor your own abilities on the mob when 17 - 20 people are casting on the same object?

I suspect not, all one has to do is look at the current Anchor boss fights, do not even try to tell me that you can see what's going on inside the visual effects on the mob.

If you haven't done a Anchor or Rift yet, I suggest you go try one when there is 10+ people there.

Exosus · April 2014

Gee, I don't like that guy's opinion and the way he's going on and on about the very topic of this thread, I think I'll just tell him not to post anymore...

dawnrise · April 2014

Wreaken wrote: »

I suspect not, all one has to do is look at the current Anchor boss fights, do not even try to tell me that you can see what's going on inside the visual effects on the mob.

Well I remember lots of lights and explosions, and then it said "anchor cleared"!

So my debuff worked?

sgeffre · April 2014

Love the fanbois trying to defend why a lack of basic gameplay features is acceptable. Buff/Debuff monitoring is a staple of any RPG, the fact that this one doesn't have it is a deficiency, plain and simple. Sorry to call your baby ugly, but that's just the way it is.

Jaburra · April 2014

claudekennilol wrote:

My writing tone is fine, thanks for noticing. And I don't really need to justify my wants and desires with information. I simply want the information available to me in a neat little box that sits on the screen and ticks down the time.

p.s. This is a perfectly adequate use of my time--conversing about a game I enjoy with others that also have opinions about the game. If you feel it's a waste of time you're more then welcome to stop reading/responding/both.

It's perfectly constructive for a user to say something they'd like out of a game. If no one did how would the devs know what the users want?

You are absolutely right. If ideas and problems are not brought to the devs then how would they know. However, there is a HUGE difference between providing actual bug or problem information with the game, and complaining that the game doesn't have every feature that you want. If the Devs find in time that a huge % of the community wants this, then I'm sure they will find a common ground. However it is their prerogative to either allow or not allow something. That's why I said it's a waste of time. If they have decided to currently do something, either respect their wishes for their game, or move onto something that has what you're looking for.

Basically it boils down to this: Devs took something away, people are upset because the game is no longer doing some work for them, said players are used to having everything done for them because the MMO genre has incorporated add-ons almost to a ridiculous level (ie: WoW), and now they flood the forums with complaints.

And just as a side note, there are still add-ons being developed for the game. It's not like the Devs took away every possibility of having them. If that was their original intent, there would not be a add-ons section on the main screen. Give them time to perfect what they can perfect, and to work on what they need to.

Wreaken · April 2014

@Jaburra and @Claudekennilol, I can respect both your opinions, but can you please both agree to disagree and move it too tells please.

For the record Jaburra, you have no idea what you are talking about until you are a part of a group of people in the range of around 20+ killing the same mob, you can't see anything. So spare us the nonsense of being spoon fed.

Spacefiddle · April 2014

The rest of this is interesting but let's not devolve into "in a REAL fight..." Yes, when i summon a giant purple swirling crystal IRL, i need to gauge my opponent's rea- no wait

Also, if you knew anything about "REAL fighting," you would have heard the term "telegraphing." It still doesn't make RL comparisons to this game valid, but it should be noted.

claudekennilol · April 2014

The devs still want to know if there are features that would be useful. Of course they want to do know about "actual bugs and problems" and of course they want to know if something isn't clear or would be helpful. It's called user experience. We have an entire UX department here--it's part of developing software.

Pang · April 2014

Jaburra wrote: »

Pang wrote:

Same applys here, when you play a new game its perfectly normal to expect it to have certain basic and standard functions.

Here's a question: How are add-ons a "standard" or "basic" function of an mmo. Add-ons are exactly that, additionals. That's like buying a car with all the little extras. Normally when you just buy the car it comes stock. That's what ESO is. It's stock. And this particular manufacturer may just decide not to add any additionals to their product. And that's their prerogative. To those of you saying it will kill their business, I beg to differ. As is seen in this entire forum post, there are a lot of us that are happy just the way the game is.

Wasn't talking about the add-ons themselves. Talking about the info, ie Buff tracking for example which was mentioned in the thread. I for one would love not to need add-ons. But because the default UI is devoid of the basic functions and features that should be standard to all MMO's the only way to get that info is through add-ons.

So again, my point was that the INFO is and should be standard features, ESO lacks a lot of that, so yes it is perfectly fine to expect a new MMO to at least have some basic and standard features MMO's share.

eventHandler · April 2014

Someone said that the majority are in favor of having numbers and such. The majority don't read forums, and more don't post. I know I sure don't care about this at all, but I'm posting to point that out and remind ya'll that everyone posting here is the minority. The devs will look at the feedback and respond accordingly, so use /feedback or post here, but don't assume you have access to what the majority wants, because that information, just like buff durations, is not visible to the players.

Adding numbers will bring more of the people who post in a thread like this, so I don't see it as a good thing since I don't want the game to be about min/max. I want them to focus on content and lore, not waste time catering to that demo. I like addons because I wanted to have my empty bag space on my screen and hide subtitles while people are talking (because I can't help but read it and it obliterates my immersion or ability to listen to the voice actor), not to make the combat more tedious with numbers. So yes, I added a number, but I could live without it. What breaks it for me is that text during dialogue. We need creative addons that do cool things, not make the game full of l33t players.

Before you make the argument that more players means more money and more focus zeni will put on the game, it is negated by the direction the game will take and where that focus will be ("competitive" pvp and raids that can only be done with min/max). I love hard endgame challenges that require progression, practice, and teamwork; just not the people who usually are into it. I hope they find a way to make it fun and challenging at the same time. Numbers isn't going to do that, it will just avoid the issue and be any other formula mmo.

I hope they focus on making combat fun (it is right now, and hopefully it just gets better) and not "competitive" in any sense other than "balanced and rewarding for people who get into it by playing instead of reading spreadsheets and wearing the right gear."

I never would have made this post if the server hadn't been down for what? 8 hours now?

I'm not going to read this thread anymore, so feel free to flame me all you like; it won't hurt my feelings even if I did read it. I don't expect people reading these threads to agree with me, since as I said, the majority of people don't read threads. My opinions aren't the point of my post; the point is that no one here is the majority.

tbenda · April 2014

Exosus wrote: »

The visual cues right now just do not always work, and even when they do work, they're only useful for buffs and debuffs that you're familiar with...

...So what's this fire doing to me?!? Maybe it's blinding me, making me less likely to hit what I'm aiming at. Maybe it's weakening my armor. Maybe it's giving me super-argonian strength! Maybe it's turning me Japanese...

...The point is that my character should know what it's doing to him, and if that isn't the case for purple fire in particular then the mouseover description should just read: "You are engulfed in mysterious purple fire and you have no idea what it's doing to you."

...Because elements of the community will flip their feces when we all get to the endgame content and this hasn't been readdressed.

...We're talking about a game development studio that wants to be viewed as one that listens to its player base... it requires an engaged, involved, and satisfied audience in order to be successful. The buff/debuff thing isn't that big of a deal right now, but it will be when the majority of players hit endgame content.

Even though I don't agree that it's a huge issue just because it's endgame content, this is exactly the sort of reasoned approach to what specifically is wrong I was talking about. Bravo. If you can't read the effects on you or easily identify what they are doing to you during combat, that does constitute a problem with making reasoned decisions about what to do about those effects.

Seerah · April 2014

*ahem*
WoW was 2004, not 2001.
/whistle

Kismias · April 2014

The only issue I have is that I play almost entirely in first person mode so if my hands are not directly in front of me I cannot see what buffs I have active on me. Eventually you get used to knowing when Storm Armor is going to expire or the Encase spell is going to explode. Now when they eventually get around to adding a FOV slider this might simply disappear altogether as an issue for me at least. If that isn't the case then it would be nice to have a animation surround the health or magicka bars depending on what you are buffing similar to the arrows they have now but maybe with different colors to show different buffs.

nemesix · April 2014

Seerah wrote: »

*ahem*
WoW was 2004, not 2001.
/whistle

It is like nobody noticed that the guy who originally gave that date had both release dates wrong. SWG was released June of 2003 and WoW was released November of 2004.

ShinChuck · April 2014

Pawkette wrote: »

You may not enjoy that, and thats more than okay. However, if you don't enjoy a movie you don't call up the studio and tell them to change their vision. You just go elsewhere.

And yet, we're entirely free to voice our opinions on movies, and potentially make a difference with future releases, eh?

That being said, it's a faulty comparison: MMOs are living, breathing things. They're based around player input. It's expected and even desired to have the players express themselves. You don't "go elsewhere", particularly if you enjoy the base game: you let them know what you like and dislike as the product evolves.

MMOs are a fluid beast, unlike most mediums. Housing is added, UIs are tweaked, classes are adjusted and balanced, content is added and altered, and player feedback is a major, important part of shaping that world.

Macalar · April 2014

Have the devs confirmed that they removed aura tracking because they didn't want players to have it?

This feature was still working during the last beta weekend, so maybe they removed it as part of a hasty perfomance optimizations round? In this case, I hope we can expect it to be back later.

As to the pro/versus argument, I can only add that I'm now less happy with the game then when I was able to track auras. If this change made me, and many others like me, less happy about the game, then how can it be a good change? People that don't use addons don't know or care about this change, so it didn't make them any more happy.

Pawkette · April 2014

@ShinChuck Yes, but the things people are asking for are not iterative improvements on the vision of the game. They are radical changes to the overall design and vision of Zenimax.

I'll repeat that they do not want you to have this information, just as they do not want you to have more than five abilities and an ultimate usable at any time. To ask them to change either is to ask them to diverge from the vision of their product.

If you want to play a game where watching the UI is the limit to the game experience, find a game heavily based around the UI. Don't try to make a game, who's vision has publicly been stated to be an attempt to move away from playing the UI, into something else.