Ruining class diveristy through monopolizing weapon abilites

Getern · May 2018

What I mean by the tittle? Ever seen average stamina off-bar skill setup?
For those who have a decent memory it might be obvious that pre TG patch burst build in PVE existed. By my definition it basically domiantion of Spammable with only reasonable amount of DOTs, same time focusing more on buff abilites.
For example:
Stamina DK with Wrecking Blow as spammable (pre DB it was working pretty damn good with HA passive), Executioner as execute but also raw damage increase on Two-hands. Add Molten weapons with buff to Heavy attacks. Woala! You already had above 20k DPS which was relatively okay back in a day. Lets say u add, Endless Hail with vMA bow and u get few thousands more. Lets say u wanna use former Venomous Claw and u had 25-30k DPS with ease. Or more (depending on skill).

Staph now! No more, lets say u wanna pick Poison Injection as well. It wasnt skill worth slotting for DPS, unless... u were having Master's Bow and pre 2.1 version.
Was that good design? I think it was. Certain abilities should used only when u have vMA/Master or whatever weapon to be fully effective. Making those abilites good at all times, makes every single class have same stuff.

And thats my point. Lets have abilities as they were back in day. So you dont have to slot every same stuff on every class with exception of one. For every stamina now it all is like: Caltrops, Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Trap and class skill. Why?

I am basically proposing nerfing weapon skills and by a lot. Class skills should be always outperforming unbuffed by "special set" weapon ability

Lysette · May 2018

I am not for that - the game shouldn't have classes in the first place,but just skill lines IMO. I rarely use class skills, I like to use weapons - class abilities often feel like "magic" even in classes which shouldn't be magic based. I like that my weapons do sometimes more damage than my class skill do - I see those as a support, not as the main weapon - my main weapon is in my hand not on the skill bar - and I like it like that.

LeagueTroll · May 2018

Pve is not diverse but pvp is. I am fine with this.

Charliff1966 · June 2018

Old days are not returning, the current ESO is more attractive for the masses.

AuldWolf · June 2018

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Old days are not returning, the current ESO is more attractive for the masses.

And that's a good thing! A fun game that might not actually die due to pressure from a tiny but very vocal hardcore minority! A game that might not end up put on life support because of incredibly bad management which appealed to tiny demographics at the expense of larger ones. I really want ESO to keep being a thing, and for that to happen, it needs to be more appealing to people.

It's funny, you know? I remember people talking about a golden age when PvP/hardcore were the biggest thing. The only games that were really like that, though, were Everquest & WoW. I remember when Ultima Online was conceived it was going to be PvP only, but the population was infinitesimal. When they launched, they had to launch with a PvE-only shard in order to actually get a community going. The vast majority of people just don't enjoy hardcore/competitive play. It might be a difficult pill to swallow, but it is the truth.

For ESO to survive, it has to bring in money. If it became a hardcore-only game, where would that money come from? It wouldn't. ESO would end up on life support like so many online multiplayer games before it. And I've been playing MMOs for a very, very long time and I've been watching that cycle repeat ad nauseum. I just want ZOS to be smart.

AuldWolf · June 2018

Lysette wrote: »

I am not for that - the game shouldn't have classes in the first place,but just skill lines IMO.

I agree with this. In Champions Online, there were two types of characters, archetypes and freeforms. Archetypes shared more in common with ESO's class system, where there were a number of preset abilities already in place. What people wanted was to be able to be creative, to make fun, flavour builds based around a character idea. They wanted to be able to make alts that fit different stories they had in their heads. Cryptic didn't listen, and opted instead to appeal to the hardcore and ignore the majority, CO is now on life support. Yay. God I miss CO.

I don't know why MMO and online game developers do this. I don't know why they listen to the hardcore demographic rather than looking at their own statistics. ZOS shouldn't have classes; They shouldn't care about min/maxing; They shouldn't care if the new system would allow builds that make things 'too easy.' They should be trying to make their game as fun and open to possibilities as they can. That's what people want. And it's what people have been asking for in every game I've played.

I'm just wondering whether ZOS will catch on, or if another developer will take notice and steal away ZOS's community with a game that's more suited to what's desired. I think that ZOS could have the game with the highest casual population of all if they just thought about it, a bit.

- No classes, just skill lines;
- Dial difficulty of world bosses back;
- Allow group dungeons to scale down to one, or even up to 50 (scaling can do this, so why not?);
- Focus on fun and ignore the min/maxers.

It's not like allowing dungeons to scale down to one will stop group play from happening, it'll just make it more organic. People will just group up when they feel like it and group dungeons might actually experience more people playing them as groups this way than with it forced (as it is now).

They have the potential to be one of the biggest online multiplayer games. It's actually frustrating not knowing which way they're going to go. I really want them to be smart. I really hope... I do really hope...

Edit: Could you imagine what it'd be like if people could have a group of any size, with a build that isn't just another cookie-cutter build? Everyone would be so happy! You could go in with a group of three people you'd met out in the world, and their crazy build ideas would work out. You wouldn't have to go with something inspired by Alcast or whatever the flavour of the week is, you wouldn't have your playstyle destroyed every few patches.

I can dream.

VaranisArano · June 2018

Every PVE stamina bar looks the same because far too many people insist that players must complete content with the most efficient builds (the meta) instead of accepting that many non-meta builds can complete the content just not as efficiently.

Its the same answer when people complain "Why is X build excluded from trials?" As long as that build can complete the content, they are only being excluded because players want more efficient builds,

As long as players pursue efficiency without acknowledging non-meta builds that can nonetheless complete content, we will see cookie cutter meta builds dominate because those are the most efficient at beating content.

Raideen · June 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

As long as players pursue efficiency without acknowledging non-meta builds that can nonetheless complete content, we will see cookie cutter meta builds dominate because those are the most efficient at beating content.

This is not the fault of the players, its the fault of the designers. People, fundamentally are like water. They will always take the path of least resistance. This should be common knowledge to any designer regardless of industry.

I desire more build options as well, but until more builds are made viable in content that requires multiple people (dungeons, raids), people are going to use the most effective ones.

VaranisArano · June 2018

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As long as players pursue efficiency without acknowledging non-meta builds that can nonetheless complete content, we will see cookie cutter meta builds dominate because those are the most efficient at beating content.

This is not the fault of the players, its the fault of the designers. People, fundamentally are like water. They will always take the path of least resistance. This should be common knowledge to any designer regardless of industry.

I desire more build options as well, but until more builds are made viable in content that requires multiple people (dungeons, raids), people are going to use the most effective ones.

ZOS nerfs overused skills and gear, people gravitate to the new most efficient thing. That's how this game works.

So again, there's always going to be a meta. If players stop accepting only the meta and instead settle for all builds that can complete the content, you'd see more diversity.

Sheezabeast · June 2018

Why not just buff class abilities and not nerf weapon skills?

DuskMarine · June 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Pve is not diverse but pvp is. I am fine with this.

both need some diversity(even though right now they both kindve do we dont need trial stuff anymore as much as before)

MaleAmazon · June 2018

I mean... this just isn´t true. I have completed all content in the game save for most veteran trials (I have done some though), and I don´t even have caltrops yet on my main character. When I did some vet trials it was when I was in a social guild that did veteran trials, and noone complained about my DPS.

There will be a theoretical highest DPS, however this is in no way necessary to complete content including vet trials, and its importance is entirely due to people being hysterical about the meta and "give me a build for my character".

Other reasons might be the scarcity of gold tempers (personally I have builds that I haven´t geared up for since I just don´t have the tempers for the equipment at the moment), not wanting to yet again farm farm farm for good traits, etc...

If you are good with your build and can communicate in chat, you should be able to do any content.

I would agree that skills are a bit limited when combined with 5 slots per bar. There isn´t much room for crazy builds. But you can certainly improvise and make good non-meta builds.

Kiyakotari · June 2018

I figure as long as I'm not dying (too often or too quickly), and the enemies are dying (in a decent amount of time), then I'm doing fine. I'm happy. Beyond that, it's all pretty much just bumbling from place to place and occasionally smashing my face repeatedly against the keyboard to see what will happen.

Raideen · June 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As long as players pursue efficiency without acknowledging non-meta builds that can nonetheless complete content, we will see cookie cutter meta builds dominate because those are the most efficient at beating content.

This is not the fault of the players, its the fault of the designers. People, fundamentally are like water. They will always take the path of least resistance. This should be common knowledge to any designer regardless of industry.

I desire more build options as well, but until more builds are made viable in content that requires multiple people (dungeons, raids), people are going to use the most effective ones.

ZOS nerfs overused skills and gear, people gravitate to the new most efficient thing. That's how this game works.

So again, there's always going to be a meta. If players stop accepting only the meta and instead settle for all builds that can complete the content, you'd see more diversity.

As I already explained that will never happen.

People don't want to play with weak specs. People mostly do not want to play weak specs.

This is not the fault of the people, its the fault of the game designers.

ResTandRespeC · June 2018

I think the game needs to cater to both casual and hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers, believe it or not, heavily contribute to the success of games through things like streaming which is a free and major source of advertising.

YarYar · June 2018

Getern wrote: »

I am basically proposing nerfing weapon skills and by a lot. Class skills should be always outperforming unbuffed by "special set" weapon ability

The issue I see with this is that all of the classes are magic first with less than a handful of skills that morph into a stamina version. Weapon skills are required for stamina builds to round them out. If you nerf the weapon skills I feel you would actually remove diversity, at least for stamina builds, as everyone would then need to take those same few stamina morphs within their class.

Now, if they added a lot more stamina based morphs, or even a few classes that had skills that were stamina first with a few magic morphs, I'd be all for your suggestion!

kichwas · June 2018

Getern wrote: »

I am basically proposing nerfing weapon skills and by a lot. Class skills should be always outperforming unbuffed by "special set" weapon ability

The end result of this would be to lock the meta down even 'tighter' than it presently is. There would end up being only 5 skill bars left in the meta - one for each class.

Everything else would get pushed off the table. One class would be seen as the 'only' tank and another as the 'only' healer and it's likely 2 of the remaining classes would be seen as 'off meta' and get abandoned...

So you'd end up with... exactly 3 builds left.