Animation Cancelling- the reason I don't play regularly anymore.

XiDiabolismiX · May 2018

Ok, how about this OP... I’ll do this only once for you and the others that complain about animation cancelling. I will upload a video on whatever class you’re tying to dps on, and not use animation cancelling.

If I break 35-40k, then you will have no other choice than to not make anymore of these topics.

Which class are you currently playing? @dazee

Anotherone773 · May 2018

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

Turelus · May 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

Feanor · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

What makes you believe that the hardest content in the game should be doable by mediocre players?

RazorCaltrops · May 2018

Can i have your stuff ?

Turelus · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

What makes you believe that the hardest content in the game should be doable by mediocre players?

I'm don't, but we're saying animation cancelling isn't required to complete all content.
So is it or is it not required to be more than a mediocre player, and if it is required then is not now required to clear the games content?

Feanor · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

What makes you believe that the hardest content in the game should be doable by mediocre players?

I'm don't, but we're saying animation cancelling isn't required to complete all content.
So is it or is it not required to be more than a mediocre player, and if it is required then is not now required to clear the games content?

If you don't like weaving you can also play a heavy attack build. @Masel92 hits 35k+ easily with minimal light attacking (only around 10% of the total damage): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/302925/infallible-infinite-wizard-magsorc-off-balance-heavy-attack-vma-trial-build-summerset/p1

He had a similar one for his DK that was also in the 30k+ range. So no, it's not required to be more than mediocre, but it makes it easier if you really want to do the very hardest content.

Tempouille · May 2018

Animation is only cosmetic thing. The design of the combat system resolve around :
1)one light attack per second is allowed
2)one skill per second is allowed

I throw a LA. what am i doing during the next second ? Well why not cast a skill. that is more effective than nothing right ? And tada you have cancel the LA animation without even wanting to.

Sparr0w · May 2018

Ani-canceling is the consequence of being able to block/roll dodge/barswap while you're mid skill, removing this would remove reactive combat... which is what the game was sold on...

Besides it's a 4-7k dps boost & that's if youre max lvl and perfect weaving. (Exception being a NightBlade)

Sparr0w · May 2018

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

Can i have your stuff ?

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO · May 2018

I dont see the point in this discussion. OP started out with saying the game is broken because light attack cancelling is a thing. He then admitted in his next post that he just heard about it and that he cant break 20k dps. He also says he does not have gold gear and no optimal gear setup.
This begs the question of 1. his CP, 2. his CP allocation 3. his rotation 4. Mundus and bufffood and a lot of other things.

Basically OP has bad dps, sees lots of parses where people with optimal gear, good rotations and probably a good understanding of the class and game pull double his numbers. Then he sees someone in /g or /z say something about light attack cancelling and uses this as an excuse for his bad performance.

And now we´re having this whole discussion on whether this should be a thing or not? Seriously?
It´s a well established system, most people who are interested in trials and want to bump their dps learn about it and then integrate it in their rotation.

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

I said could complete all content, the extra stipulations you put on it for leaderboards, achieves, and epeen enlargement arent included in "complete all content", a majority of the player base doesnt care about such things, they just want to do all the content that they paid for.

Turelus · May 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

Aurielle · May 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

I said could complete all content, the extra stipulations you put on it for leaderboards, achieves, and epeen enlargement arent included in "complete all content", a majority of the player base doesnt care about such things, they just want to do all the content that they paid for.

Spot on. In every MMORPG I’ve ever played, only the elite raiding groups that put the time and effort into it have been able to achieve the challenges reserved for truly excellent gameplay. Those challenges are trivialized if any old Joe in blue quest gear and 20k DPS can achieve them.

When it comes to simply clearing veteran trials, which is what most people want, you don’t have to be a 40k+ DPS damage dealer in an elite trials guild.

Katahdin · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in game with 25k dps, so i would worry about achieving that rather than how you achieve it. Light weaving, what some are calling AC, does improve dps. But light weaving is easy to do. You just time a light attack between each ability. The dps increase can exceed 25% over non weaving. AC i wouldnt worry about.

When most people complain about low dps its because they have experiences with people who literally do 5k or 10k dps but are at a high enough level to do 15k plus even in purple "starter' gear with no BiS, when with most classes/weapons you should be able to get near 10k or break it with a single ability spam.

So you're telling me a group of 25k DPS (max) players can get vAS+2 no death speed run, or even vCR+3 no death speed run?

This is what I am trying to say though, yes all content is possible, but it's so stacked against a 25k DPS group vs a 40k+ DPS group when it comes to this content.

Also veteran Domihaus would like a word with anyone that thinks 25k dps is enough

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

And this is where we differ. I fully acknowledge you point and agree to it to some degree. I´d just not pull the line at Score runs but some point before that. At DLC Trials. This is where a high degree of skill is needed. And this should be for the dedicated players who put in the effort, meaning players who learn how to weave/AC, whatever you want to call it.

You rightly say that ZOS now has AC as an expectation. And I agree that starting with (vet) DLC Trials (excluding Craglorn), weaving is important. But given how long ago weaving/AC was "introduced", I dont see why people still oppose it.

To the physical disabilities part. This is true and I feel bad for arguing about this point, however the game should not be designed about a minority. Since these degrees of disabilities vary even a fast paced rotation with no weaving can pose a challenge to some. One might argue that the general gameplay pace could be toned down so we would have near full inclusion, however the overwhelming majority of players prefers a face paced playstyle. Many many complained about the heavy attack meta from Morrowind because it was slowing down the game pace. So you have to make a wager between including the minority or maddening your majority. So I´m going with barring some players from playing the very endgame content.

It is also true that a very long time ago we did content without the need to weave. However - as with scaling in homestead and resource management in Morrowind - things changed. So treat this as one of those game changers. And like I said, 95% of the game are accessible without weaving. The only thing not doable are DLC vet trials and certain vet dungeons on HM. Questing, dungeon, even most vet dungeons, all normal trials including some vet trials... everything can be done without weaving.

I dont want the game to be "dumbed down" (I was really looking for a non-insulting way to phrase this) because people don´t manage to click a light attack before using a skill.

Would you be more okay with weaving if there was an ingame help article and a section in the tutorial about it? Because right now the only way to learn about it is to actively look for ways to increase dps, meaning asking guilds/reading guides which should definitely be handled way better. It is definitely an advanced mechanic, thats why I don´t see it in the "first 10 minutes of the game basic tutorial", however at some point (maybe around lvl 15- weapon swap) there could be a quest where this concept is introduced in form of a quest. I definitely would like to see that and it would be a good way to bridge the gap from good to great players.

(Edited for clarity, to clean up some horrible grammar and put in the part about disabilities)

xRIVALENx · May 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

Also veteran Domihaus would like a word with anyone that thinks 25k dps is enough

25k dps is most certainly enough for Veteran Domihaus, even on Hardmode. If you burn the boss down to just above 26% after the 50% shout, wait for the pull then proceed to execute it is quite simple. This gives the group plenty of time to do damage before he shields up, which will come after the 30% shout which was delayed.

Turelus · May 2018

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

hamsterontherocksb16_ESO wrote: »

It´s very simple: If you want to play with the grown ups, you have to put effort in it. If you, 95% of the game can still be done without animation cancelling.

Just because one bad player is too lazy to put in some effort you´re discussing about abolishing a system that has been around for ages and is a fundamental part of the game. The game has - in part - been designed around it. Abolishing it will screw over most of the endgame content.

Yes, animation cancelling was never meant to happen, but ZOS has accepted it as part of the game. So deal with it. Dont blame your bad performance on external factors.

I'm not on about abolishing it, I am on about if the game should be balanced around it.

In the times of old we used to have trials which could be cleared by a dedicated group reasonably well without being the very top end or requiring animation cancelling.

However now ZOS is pushing AC as a mechanic and encouraging weaving to be core gameplay, this means that it's now becoming an expectation to be able to do that and the game can be balanced around it.

I've also been an advocate for not making it a core mechanic because it pushes people with physical disabilities away from content they might have been able to previously achieve. Feanor has pointed out there are some accessible builds however so it might just be getting this knowledge into the hands of players.

There is a place for it being in the game and letting those who do it score better, run faster and have an easier time. If ZOS tries to match the content to those people though it leaves a damn lot more of the games population behind and continues to push the gap between good players and great players.

And this is where we differ. I fully acknowledge you point and agree to it to some degree. I´d just not pull the line at Score runs but some point before that. At DLC Trials. This is where a high degree of skill is needed. And this should be for the dedicated players who put in the effort, meaning players who learn how to weave/AC, whatever you want to call it.

You rightly say that ZOS now has AC as an expectation. And I agree that starting with (vet) DLC Trials (excluding Craglorn), weaving is important. But given how long ago weaving/AC was "introduced", I dont see why people still oppose it.

It is true that a very long time ago we did content without the need to weave. However - as with scaling in homestead and resource management in Morrowind - things changed. So treat this as one of those game changers. And like I said, 95% of the game are accessible without weaving. The only thing not doable are DLC vet trials and certain vet dungeons on HM.

I dont want the game to be "dumbed down" (I was really looking for a non-insulting way to phrase this) because people don´t manage to click a light attack before using a skill.

Would you be more okay with weaving if there was an ingame help article and a section in the tutorial about it? Because right now the only way to learn about it is to actively look for ways to increase dps, meaning asking guilds/reading guides which should definitely be handled way better. It is definitely an advanced mechanic, thats why I don´t see it in the "first 10 minutes of the game basic tutorial", however at some point (maybe around lvl 15- weapon swap) there could be a quest where this concept is introduced in form of a quest. I definitely would like to see that and it would be a good way to bridge the gap from good to great players.

(Edited for clarity and to clean up some horrible grammar)

First I'll say that I'll never be fully happy with LA weaving because it has a lot of emphasis on fast repetitive clicks which isn't possible for everyone.
As I've mentioned in other threads the bias on this for me comes from the fact I have issues which cause prolonged light attack waving to become a literal physical pain for me, others have also expanded on this by saying older people or those with arthritis are now being pushed away from content.
Again Feanor has pointed to a couple of more accessible builds in this thread which I would hope ZOS would take not of and allow for builds other than light weave to competitive.

I too don't want to see ESO dumbed down and I don't want to see a game where weaving or animation cancelling is taken away from those skilled in it to appease those unskilled in it. I am fine with it being there but I don't like it being the core staple which everything is becoming balanced around.

However, sadly ZOS has since Morrowind pushed a very strong core mechanic of "you light attack weave for DPS, other attacks aren't meant for DPS" where's we used to be able to heavy attack or medium attack with reasonable DPS depending on build/skills.
The Nightblade (which I sadly chose to main four years ago before all this started) has now become a LA or GTFO build class for the most part due to how both their sustain and procs work.

Summerset expanded on this even more with the changes to attack damage formula and empower being a buff which again enforces this "light attacks are your damage now" idea.

This only leads me to believe we're going to see development become more focused and balanced around weaving being mandatory gameplay. Everyone is correct it's not needed right now and there are builds which can achieve numbers without it, but it's very clear ZOS' intentions are light weaving is what you should be doing to be good at the game.

Ramblings over and to answer you question. Yes I would be more accepting if ZOS did more to explain the expectations, not because I agree with them or want them but because it would go a long way to stopping threads like this where players don't understand gameplay styles which are now expected of them. No player should ever have to visit YouTube to understand how the basic expected mechanics of an MMO work, ZOS has sadly failed in this regard for a long time (from hidden stats to weaving)

Overall I would be far happier if we had a system where light attacks are the best DPS, but HA/MA or builds which don't require LA weaving are still catered for when balancing content, including speed runs and hardmodes.

ADarklore · May 2018

I can say that some people may have a problem with DPS and/or animation canceling due to internet speed issues. I know previously I had 6Mbs download but only .7Mbs upload... and I struggled with bar swapping, light attacks, etc. not firing off. Since I upgraded to 25Mbs download and 2Mbs upload, those issues are no longer a problem.

Also, I know some people have a major ego problem in that they believe they are SO good, that they don't 'need to' learn a new skill or tactic... I think this also leads to a lot of frustration on the forums here about animation cancelling; those people want to play how they want to play and not be expected to utilize a system that helps them improve. Therefore, remove it and bring people down to their level so they don't have to spend time rising up to someone else's.

ZOS_JesC · May 2018

Greetings, we've removed a few comments for baiting. Please remember that comments should be free of personal attacks and remain on topic with the original thread topic. Thank you for your understanding.

kylewwefan · May 2018

If you’re not happy with your 20k; work through it. I was stuck at 20k for along time. I had to make a little video of my parse and post it. Ok, I admit it was a major pain and you feel kind of vulnerable.

These forum guys got me up to 28k by changing one skill and the order I was doing my skills in.

Now I’m stuck at 30k. But I’m alright with that.

Look. I have played with people that claim they can hit 38k. Sure. On a stationary target that doesn’t turn around and b slap you. When you have to move around and stuff all of a sudden that 38k turns into 20.

Maybe there’s some that can do it reasonably consistently. That’s ok. If you’re actually pulling 20k, you’re not the problem.

But very likely, your 20k turns into 10 to 15 when playing mechanics. That’s no good. Animation cancelling isn’t gonna get you from 20 to 30. Nope. It could maybe bring you from 20 to 22.

I would about guarantee that you’re already animation cancelling every now and then and don’t even realize you’re doing it.

Seri · May 2018

ADarklore wrote: »

I can say that some people may have a problem with DPS and/or animation canceling due to internet speed issues. I know previously I had 6Mbs download but only .7Mbs upload... and I struggled with bar swapping, light attacks, etc. not firing off. Since I upgraded to 25Mbs download and 2Mbs upload, those issues are no longer a problem.

Latency can be an issue with weaving, if you try and run quicker than the latency allows. If you don't try and mash skills, weaving and barswap cancelling is still achievable with 400ms+ ping.

Also, I know some people have a major ego problem in that they believe they are SO good, that they don't 'need to' learn a new skill or tactic... I think this also leads to a lot of frustration on the forums here about animation cancelling; those people want to play how they want to play and not be expected to utilize a system that helps them improve. Therefore, remove it and bring people down to their level so they don't have to spend time rising up to someone else's.

That reasoning is... confusing. Remove an in-game mechanic that has existed since beta because people don't want to learn said mechanic, and that someone that doesn't want to put any effort or improve should be considered the base-line that all vet and HM content should be completable around?

Raraaku · May 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

Raraaku wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

Endgame content does not require it. Now come back inside will you.

I would argue this point.

In the past the statement was true and I would agree with you fully, now however because ZOS seems to be working closer around the idea of light weave being the correct way to play, they're balancing content around that.

Whilst a group which doesn't animation cancel can still clear the content, it's a lot harder for them to do* and much more unlikely they'll score the speed run achievements.

* Less DPS means less damage, which means more mechanics, harder execute phases etc.

Weaving is not animation cancelling. Light attacks do not cancel skill animations. Skills take priority over light/heavy attacks. While you’re weaving, the recovery animations of the light attack can be cancelled, but if you’re weaving fast enough, you will cancel the light attack recovery animations without even trying to do so. It’s not something you have to consciously think about.

It is if you're not good at it or new to the game. Good weaving is good animation cancelling, because you're cutting the time needed to wait for that animation to finish. Yes the really good people who cancel also block cancel or weapon swap cancel skills but at it's very basics weaving and cancelling the full light/heavy attack animation is considered core gameplay mechanics now, which is animation cancelling.

Aznox wrote: »

I agree, Turelus as a community ambassador you should use the correct terms (that community agreed upon) to describe things otherwise the quality of the discussion suffers from misunderstandings.

So cancelling light/heavy attack animations isn't animation cancelling any more because we as a community decided to call that specific type weaving? Does block cancelling a skill animation stop being animation cancelling if we all decided to call it "block halting" ?

As I said, yes, you can cancel the animation of a light attack’s recovery/follow-through period if you weave fast enough. I cancel light attack recovery animations without trying to.

Weaving — the process of throwing in a light attack before each skill — is not animation cancelling in and of itself. When people hear “animation cancelling”, they think about cancelled skill animations and assume that you don’t see a single skill animation play out if you want to hit 30k+ DPS, which is simply false. We all need to use clear terminology to avoid misunderstandings and frustration.

Weaving isn't simply just doing a LA before each skill, everyone does that and if you were to look up guides on Weaving, that is exactly what is taught; canceling the LA animation by using a skill's animation to override the follow-through. It is animation cancelling. It's shortening the time of LAs so that you can increase your DPS in your rotation by increasing the number of LAs you can achieve in your rotation before having to restart your rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTjhXLQXpac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb0O9zjMDN4

It's not simply "Oh just LA and then do an ability." It's "LA and look for this cue in the animation to ensure your LA still registers so that you can now cancel the rest of the animation by following up with skill". Those are two completely different things. Animation Cancelling has been just as much being used on auto-attack animations in other MMOs as with skill animation cancelling.

Weaving is animation cancelling, you're literally cutting off the follow-through animation by overriding that LA animation with a skill, usually that skill will be your spammable.

Sigh.

I know how to weave. You don’t need to condescend and post tutorials for me. I, too, cancel the recovery period of my light attacks when I weave — as mentioned previously. However, to avoid mass confusion on this subject, I honestly do think we need to differentiate between the process of cancelling SKILL animations and LIGHT ATTACK animations. Because a number of people on these forums loosely call weaving “animation cancelling” (a term that also refers to block cancelling, bar swap cancelling, etc), we have people in this forum who believe that in order to weave successfully, they can’t see a single skill. Cue the complaints about weaving making their characters look like they’re having “seizures” and about not wanting to weave due to “wanting to see skills.”

If you weave well, you’ll cancel the recovery period of your light attack animations. You can still see DPS benefits, however, if you weave with inconsistent animation cancelling, or no animation cancelling at all. The animation cancelling bit of weaving is shaving off literal milliseconds per full rotation and does not result in a huge DPS increase over the course of a longer boss fight or dummy parse. It’s more important to get those light attacks in between each skill as fast as possible; any animation cancelling on top of that is just a bonus.

I apologize if I came off condescending, it was not meant to be. The videos were simply to reinforce my point about how weaving is taught as an animation cancelling technique, not that you did not understand or know how to do weaving.

I disagree. I don't have a way to time it accurately, but subjectively, it's pretty significant. Also, whenever a new discussion is posted about how to raise DPS one of the first questions asked is... Are you weaving?

As for all the confusion between weaving (which is accepted by ZOS as a happy accident byproduct of the combat system) vs. other forms of animation cancelling... Well, ZOS could easily clear all that up by being on the forefront of educating it's players, particularly new players, about weaving. I'm not against weaving. Is it technically animation cancelling? Yes. Is it an exploit of the system? Not at all, and ZOS has stated in the past that it's simply just a part of the combat system now.

Aurielle · May 2018

Seri wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I can say that some people may have a problem with DPS and/or animation canceling due to internet speed issues. I know previously I had 6Mbs download but only .7Mbs upload... and I struggled with bar swapping, light attacks, etc. not firing off. Since I upgraded to 25Mbs download and 2Mbs upload, those issues are no longer a problem.

Latency can be an issue with weaving, if you try and run quicker than the latency allows. If you don't try and mash skills, weaving and barswap cancelling is still achievable with 400ms+ ping.

Also, I know some people have a major ego problem in that they believe they are SO good, that they don't 'need to' learn a new skill or tactic... I think this also leads to a lot of frustration on the forums here about animation cancelling; those people want to play how they want to play and not be expected to utilize a system that helps them improve. Therefore, remove it and bring people down to their level so they don't have to spend time rising up to someone else's.

That reasoning is... confusing. Remove an in-game mechanic that has existed since beta because people don't want to learn said mechanic, and that someone that doesn't want to put any effort or improve should be considered the base-line that all vet and HM content should be completable around?

The reasoning isn’t really confusing; it’s just indicative of the pretty lofty sense of entitlement a lot of people have these days. They don’t want to accept that maybe, just maybe, they need to practice for a bit on a target dummy instead of waltzing into a vet trial in sub-par gear and expecting to put out uber deeps without a rotation.

Saying that weaving/animation cancelling/etc. should be removed from the game because you can’t/won’t learn how do it is like saying that the NHL should lower its standards to the point where anyone who can hold a hockey stick should be permitted to play in the Stanley Cup finals AND shoot the winning goal without any training or practice whatsoever. After all, hockey is “just a game,” right? It’s just “entertainment,” right?

Koensol · May 2018

dazee wrote: »

Dude I shouldn't have to exploit the way the combat system is set up to do good dps. And that's exactly what animation cancelling is. I won't do it and until ZOS fixes this exploit ESO is broken.

Weaving is entirely another thing.

Shakes my *** head. Weaving is the only thing that increases dps. Other stuff like block cancelling have absolutely ZERO influence on dps. When will dimwits like you learn to do their research before coming to the forums to complain? Truth is you don't know ***. Your 2nd comment in this thread already showed us you have no clue at all.

SmellyUnlimited · May 2018

@dazee

if you’re having trouble achieving 20k dps, it’s not because of animation canceling. It’s not understanding one or more of the following:

1. Proper skill usage
2. Proper gear catering to class strengths
3. The relevant stats to prioritize (I.e. penetration over weapon damage generally)

I think in all honesty you need to learn your character, and read a guide or two to understand why certain skills/morphs are more important than others.

SmellyUnlimited · May 2018

I will say, though, that those who think weaving isn’t animation canceling, then you yourself don’t understand animation canceling. Because animation canceling is so prevalent, and that term implies a type of exploit, the community has made thr euphemism for it “weaving.”

Weaving = using a skill to shorten the full animation of a light attack. The animation is canceled.

It becomes a simple time/distance problem: distance (target hp) / speed (number or attacks you can get off) = time (time to kill). The more attacks you can get off, the lower your time. Which is why on a dps parse all you really need to know how much hp the target has and the time the parse took.

So everyone arguing that weaving isn’t animation canceling, you’re just perpetuating this misinformation campaign to try and justify what IS an exploitive technique (exploit = the use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.). Logically, it makes no sense that an attack would land when the actual animation is canceled before hitting the target.

Go hit a baseball, but before your bat connects, start running for first base. Now ponder why the first baseman is scratching his head.

Feanor · May 2018

Weaving isn’t necessarily animation cancelling. The purpose of weaving is using the dead portion of the GCD and fill it with damage. If an animation gets cancelled that’s just a byproduct because of the mechanics.

The purpose of animation cancelling is shortening the animation of a skill because this gives an advantage in itself. An example is block cancelling (don’t have to drop block and thus still receive block mitigation) or making skills connect faster (Executioner) or hiding the animation completely (Dawnbreaker).

Weaving and animation cancelling go hand in hand often but yet are distinct regarding the purpose.

exeeter702 · May 2018

dazee wrote: »

Dude I shouldn't have to exploit the way the combat system is set up to do good dps. And that's exactly what animation cancelling is. I won't do it and until ZOS fixes this exploit ESO is broken.

Weaving is entirely another thing.

I give up....

idk · May 2018

dazee wrote: »

Broken beyond belief. Until ZoS fixes this (and rebalances endgame content to not require it) I will not be playing much and I think others are beginning to get sick of this exploit as well.

@dazee

It is not broken and will not be removed. Zos has clearly stated that.

However, end game content does not and has never required AC. Not even close. Every trial in vHM can be cleared without AC, easily. If a groups dps is not high enough to clear the content other things are way off. AC does not make a dps good, they are good with or without it.