Warden healer skll line needs compelte revamp

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

The warden Green balance skill in is almost useless at end game or for pvp...In stead of making it a true Heal of Time druid style healer they made a healer who basically has to use every other skill line possible to heal but the one it was built with...

Avran_Sylt · May 2018

Okay. How would you go about rectifying this perceived design flaw?

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Avran_Sylt · May 2018

Okay. what about the current Warden HoTs do you find suboptimal?

Aluneth · May 2018

I can't comment on this from a pure healer perspective, but as a Tank/Healer I've found it to be very efficient. I can top up my entire dungeon team from 20% to 100% in a few seconds, and then back to tanking again.

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

compared to the heals available from resto staff they are almost a complete after though...your not going to slot healing seeds over healing springs or combat prayer...fungal growth and leaching vines are the most useful...in most mmo's a hot healer is a massive aoe healer...and you pair with a burst healer like in WoW it was a paladin… but when you have a class like templar that has cleanse and shards most end game raids see little utility for a warden healer

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

Aluneth wrote: »

I can't comment on this from a pure healer perspective, but as a Tank/Healer I've found it to be very efficient. I can top up my entire dungeon team from 20% to 100% in a few seconds, and then back to tanking again.

as fair as tanking yes the hybrid heal tank is great but from a pure healing stand point its weak at best

Koensol · May 2018

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Nightblade healer is ESO's HoT based healer. And it is very effective.

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Nightblade healer is ESO's HoT based healer. And it is very effective.

yes a dps class using dps skill lines is a better Hots healer than a warden with a dedicated healing line...no issues there lol

Koensol · May 2018

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Nightblade healer is ESO's HoT based healer. And it is very effective.

yes a dps class using dps skill lines is a better Hots healer than a warden with a dedicated healing line...no issues there lol

Where does it say NB is a dps class? That is just your subjective perception. NB has a lot of passives that benefit healing, has a healing ult, and now also has a burst heal. Im just telling the facts here.

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Nightblade healer is ESO's HoT based healer. And it is very effective.

yes a dps class using dps skill lines is a better Hots healer than a warden with a dedicated healing line...no issues there lol

Where does it say NB is a dps class? That is just your subjective perception. NB has a lot of passives that benefit healing, has a healing ult, and now also has a burst heal. Im just telling the facts here.

Ill be honest I have been playing since beta and I have at best a lvl 9 Night blade I made a few months ago. But as I am sure NBs are capable when we are talking min/maxing for end game heroics they don't come up as a valid healer choice...

Avran_Sylt · May 2018

Out of curiosity, if the Synergy for Healing Seed applied the HoT to everyone in its radius, would you be more, or less likely to slot that skill?

(I do not play Warden, so I am unfamiliar with the number scalings)

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

Toast_STS · May 2018

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

blood altar

efduncanub17_ESO · May 2018

Toast_STS wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

blood altar

that's not from a healing skill line...Resto staff doesn't require healing springs to have a synergy and overall its better

StoicSunbro · May 2018

Green Balance has some remarkable ideas but often too unreliable or weak for actually healing. Forgive the essay, I like being thorough.

Enchanted Growth: Same use cases as Combat Prayer but a weaker buff. I sometimes slot this in all Nightblade DD raids, which are uncomfortably common.

ZOS could provide another skill with an AOE source of Minor Berserk. For example, Propelling Shield could be the Olorime of Minor Berserk.

No comment on stam morph.

I don't use Healing Seeds for its odd delayed heal. PVP: I use Corrupting Pollen for the AOE Major Defile. PVE: I use Budding for an Alkosh synergy.

The base skill could be a Zaan-like growing heal over time. Budding could still trigger-burst but the HoT should last longer (>12s), so you can choose mid cast between higher healing ticks or instant burst.

Living Trellis burst heals when the effect ends. If it was on cast, it could quickly save a life. Buff the amount to be a bit weaker than Breath/Stonefist/Matriarch.
Leeching Vines would be quite useful for tanks if it was self cast and lasted longer.
I'd prefer the base skill AOE heal (7m) to actually scale for groups, but that may be too much with the morph suggestions.

Lotus seems designed for DPS, but others steal the heal. It should heal you, the bear, and one ally. Sadly Mend Wounds does not proc this skill.

Nature's grasp is fun. It has some uses in PVP but it needs some brief damage mitigation because the danger involved.
In PVE it's too slow to aim and can get you killed by AOE mechanics.

I'd love a Guard-like morph that doesn't teleport, gives 4k hp + 1 ult every 2s but that may be a too dramatic rework.

Trees are a solid skill.

I've written enough, but the passives have some pain points as well. I also think implementing all of these suggestions may be too powerful, but they point out a path forward.

Silver_Strider · May 2018

A revamp seems a bit much for some minor grievances.

The cone on Growth could be adjusted to be wider, Budding Seeds could last a bit longer than 6 seconds and Grasp could be faster to fire/pull you but these are really minor adjustments overall. I'm not a fan of Vines or Blossom though.

My issue with Vines is that it just feels random on who it applies to. I get it's a smart heal that heals the person that needs it the most but it always seem to go to the DPS or myself whenever we take even 1% damage instead of the tank that's down a good 20%. I honestly can't stand using it at all and would much rather it just be a spell I can target and cast so I don't have to constantly waste magic on giving it to people that don't even need it.

Blossom is weird for me. It functions on a similar level to Siphoning Attacks in terms of Light Attacks but Heavy Attacks sort make it sort of an awkward RNG heal ability that really doesn't scale well in Trial settings (or even in solo instances with the Bear hogging the majority of the heals). If anything, I'd like the Heavy Attack version to just apply a small HoT to nearby allies until the heavy attack is over (so pretty much the exact opposite of Mend Wounds light attacks)

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

blood altar

that's not from a healing skill line...Resto staff doesn't require healing springs to have a synergy and overall its better

Orbs doesn't come from a Healing Skill Line either but everyone will tell you its mandatory to run on a Healer despite this. Blood Altar, while not the greatest skill in the world, isn't exactly the horrible skill it used to be so it was a valid answer since you didn't specify it had to be in a Healing Skill Line.

As for your Budding Seeds suggestion, I don't agree. Synergies are really helpful to Tanks for sustain purposes as well as maintaining Alkosh uptimes that outright removing it seems like stripping Warden of a utility instead of adding to it. If the Synergy provided a HoT heal instead of a burst heal or if the skill has changed into a HoT with the Burst Synergy attached, that would be fine.

Koensol · May 2018

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Nightblade healer is ESO's HoT based healer. And it is very effective.

yes a dps class using dps skill lines is a better Hots healer than a warden with a dedicated healing line...no issues there lol

Where does it say NB is a dps class? That is just your subjective perception. NB has a lot of passives that benefit healing, has a healing ult, and now also has a burst heal. Im just telling the facts here.

Ill be honest I have been playing since beta and I have at best a lvl 9 Night blade I made a few months ago. But as I am sure NBs are capable when we are talking min/maxing for end game heroics they don't come up as a valid healer choice...

Plays no NB, says it isn't a valid healer for endgame. SMH. Perfect example of the thickheadedness that is evident in PvE endgame. What makes templar currently so much better? I can tell you NB healer has more healing output than a templar, and since they now have a burst heal that can basically be spammed, templar just lost that advantage as well.

I think healing all around is a lot more balanced than it was in previous patches. It is one of the few things this patch did right.

Kadoin · May 2018

The OP's argument doesn't even make sense. "Change this skill because resto staff is better," but forgets that if both are used together and people complain about it being "OP," "broken," "zero counterplay," then it would mean the class skill would get nerfed anyway.

I suspect the changes to offering were not made to listen to players and offer a terrible "burst heal", but because when you stacked that NB skill (when it was an HoT) with mutagen, a lingering potion, and strife you could negate nearly all incoming damage and sustain it pretty easily. In fact, I never lost a 1v1 doing that.

Add a damage shield and you were invincible vs. nearly anyone, and shieldbreaker was a joke. And before you wonder how strong that NB HoT was, it was just as strong as Regeneration's Morph or had a tooltip "comparable to resto" with an 8 second duration instead of 20. (though it became stronger than Regeneration with Major Vitality and/or Minor).

For that reason, I seriously doubt what you want will happen. To allow it to be cast without the synergy will mean that the dev team will either nerf it so you can't repeat what NBs were capable of with Offering pre-Summerset, raise the cost, or rework the skill in a way you won't like. Be careful what you wish for...

Maura_Neysa · May 2018

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

Leave the synergy, but instead of a burst heal at the end, make that the HoT. If Budding Seeds was a 6 sec HoT with a synergy it would be used just like Cleansing Ritual, with a slightly different function. Make it a stronger HoT then Ritual with the same smaller radius. It would also leave Corrupting Pollen, with the counter play of, keep moving it to keep the enemy debuffed, or leave it to get the heal at the end.

Maura_Neysa · May 2018

StoicSunbro wrote: »

Leeching Vines would be quite useful for tanks if it was self cast and lasted longer.
I'd prefer the base skill AOE heal (7m) to actually scale for groups, but that may be too much with the morph suggestions.

Lotus seems designed for DPS, but others steal the heal. It should heal you, the bear, and one ally. Sadly Mend Wounds does not proc this skill.

@StoicSunbro Absolutely not, both of these ideas would completely screw over Wardens.
- Leeching Vines is HIGHLY useful to tanks, BECAUSE it goes on others. It is the only reliable, high up-time, source of procing Nature's Gift. Half of the Warden Tanks stamina return while blocking.
- Lotus, the best choice for the DPS Warden to proc the same Nature's Gift passive, which is far more useful. Since solo you will get the heal, and in groups, the Healer will cover your health, while you worry about keeping the DPS up.

Maura_Neysa · May 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

My issue with Vines is that it just feels random on who it applies to. I get it's a smart heal that heals the person that needs it the most but it always seem to go to the DPS or myself whenever we take even 1% damage instead of the tank that's down a good 20%. I honestly can't stand using it at all and would much rather it just be a spell I can target and cast so I don't have to constantly waste magic on giving it to people that don't even need it.

It is a smart heal. 20% is nothing on a tank. If my tank is down 50% I still have 18k health, so yeah it wont go to me.
I run a Warden Tank with 1200 hours on it, I have a lot of experience with how this skill works

Blossom is weird for me. It functions on a similar level to Siphoning Attacks in terms of Light Attacks but Heavy Attacks sort make it sort of an awkward RNG heal ability that really doesn't scale well in Trial settings (or even in solo instances with the Bear hogging the majority of the heals). If anything, I'd like the Heavy Attack version to just apply a small HoT to nearby allies until the heavy attack is over (so pretty much the exact opposite of Mend Wounds light attacks)

Dont plan on this healing. Its just a HoT going out while you work your other skills. At least if you weave on a healer

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

blood altar

that's not from a healing skill line...Resto staff doesn't require healing springs to have a synergy and overall its better

Orbs doesn't come from a Healing Skill Line either but everyone will tell you its mandatory to run on a Healer despite this. Blood Altar, while not the greatest skill in the world, isn't exactly the horrible skill it used to be so it was a valid answer since you didn't specify it had to be in a Healing Skill Line.
[/quote]
Orbs is required because of the Stamina return and nothing else. So yes its required.
Blood Alter on a Warden is pointless. Wardens already have a synergy heal and a Life Steal source.

Maryal · May 2018

Wardens can have NB's Malevolent Offering for their new healing skill ... it will make Wardens the best healers in the game!

Qbiken · May 2018

Unless I´m in need of a lot of burst heals, I would take a magicka warden as support in PvP over a magplar 7 days/week.

StoicSunbro · May 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

StoicSunbro wrote: »

Leeching Vines would be quite useful for tanks if it was self cast and lasted longer.
I'd prefer the base skill AOE heal (7m) to actually scale for groups, but that may be too much with the morph suggestions.

Lotus seems designed for DPS, but others steal the heal. It should heal you, the bear, and one ally. Sadly Mend Wounds does not proc this skill.

@StoicSunbro Absolutely not, both of these ideas would completely screw over Wardens.
- Leeching Vines is HIGHLY useful to tanks, BECAUSE it goes on others. It is the only reliable, high up-time, source of procing Nature's Gift. Half of the Warden Tanks stamina return while blocking.
- Lotus, the best choice for the DPS Warden to proc the same Nature's Gift passive, which is far more useful. Since solo you will get the heal, and in groups, the Healer will cover your health, while you worry about keeping the DPS up.

I think you missed the intent. Neither of these changes would remove the proccing Nature's Gift, and I'm well aware of that passives importance.

My leeching vines suggestion would stay on the caster for 20-25 seconds. The nice thing about it only applying to the caster/tank is since the tank is the one aggro'ing everything it more reliably spreads lifesteal to the enemies damaging the tank. It gives a nice self-heal over time as well. It would still proc Nature's gift, but the extended duration would make it more efficient to use. Right now it's 10s, and Nature's gift gives 250 resources per heal. If it procs every second, which it sometimes doesn't, you only get 2500 resources back; The skill costs 2700 magicka. It could be a bit longer so you're using less magicka.

I don't understand why you're against Lotus being buffed to heal up to three targets simultaneously instead of one somewhat random target. In solo content like VMA, lotus can heal the bear instead of you, which can be problematic.

SirMewser · May 2018

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see a real HoTs based healer..i don't think it would be difficult...plenty of mmos have them

Nightblade healer is ESO's HoT based healer. And it is very effective.

yes a dps class using dps skill lines is a better Hots healer than a warden with a dedicated healing line...no issues there lol

Ofcourse you would think that, you're closed minded.

BaneOfBattler · May 2018

Well this is what happens when certain individuals dont know how to "balance" and make which what was once just the best assassin class in the game into the the superman class of the game by turning nb's to be better healers than templars, making also wardens better than templars and crowning nb's as the most reliable resourceful magicka healer in the game.

This is what we get when "balancing" and people crying "demanding" changes to pvp, now it affects to all of us.

Some people just should stay playing lol, and some people should just be updating privacy policies for smartphones. Bye

Silver_Strider · May 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

I have three max level wardens its my fav class....I think taking the synergy away and just applying the HoT to everyone would be better...what other major heal requires a synergy like this?

blood altar

that's not from a healing skill line...Resto staff doesn't require healing springs to have a synergy and overall its better

Orbs doesn't come from a Healing Skill Line either but everyone will tell you its mandatory to run on a Healer despite this. Blood Altar, while not the greatest skill in the world, isn't exactly the horrible skill it used to be so it was a valid answer since you didn't specify it had to be in a Healing Skill Line.

Orbs is required because of the Stamina return and nothing else. So yes its required.
Blood Alter on a Warden is pointless. Wardens already have a synergy heal and a Life Steal source.

[/quote]

Never said Blood Altar was good on Warden. Merely commenting on the dismissive nature of OP's comment merely beause Blood Altar wasn't in a Healing Skill Line despite his question asking what other major Heal is tied behind a Synergy and not specifying that it needed to be in a Healer Skill Line, which brought me to point out that neither Shard nor Orbs are in Healer Skill Lines but are required for healing anyways.

Context people, its always important to know the context of a statement before commenting on them.

Tonnopesce · May 2018

Even if i have a full skill line dedicated to healing i still use rally/vigor...
It reminds me of my stamplar (rip)

Vaoh · May 2018

Doesn’t need a total overhaul imo. It’s pretty creative and a very nice skill line. The issue is that it restricts itself far too much.

Example:
• Lotus Flower (+morphs) currently only heals yourself OR an ally. I look at Surge on my Sorcerer as an absolutely superior skill. Lotus Flower should heal you and an ally (or even two allies for a lesser amount) to really be worth it. This would not only help Warden survivability, but make them a bit more valuable in raids. Atm this skill sees very little use in PvE.
• Enchanted Growth should have its cost reduced. I never see even Warden Healers use this because the buffs it provides aren’t so strong, yet the cost is high. Therefore it needs to have its cost reduced (currently too high) and maybe even get a small HoT. Increasing the cone size would help too.
• Healing Seed (+morphs) is kind of pathetic in PvE because it is a one-time, delayed heal. I rarely ever see Warden Healers bother with it. They might as well cast a Healing Springs instead of Healing Seed. If this skill had a HoT (not even a strong one) or grantee Minor Vitality to all allies in the circle it would be perfect, and also add a purge to the synergy effect.
• Emerald Moss should be stronger. Lackluster passive. Maybe gives the 1%/2% healing for any heal skill slotted instead of only Green Balance skills.
• Maturation provides a redundant buff. Would be nice if it gave something more useful (a long-time complaint of Wardens)

The actual skills themselves are cool. They just don’t do enough which is why (like you said) Warden Healers barely slot their class healing skills.

thestud2012 · May 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Doesn’t need a total overhaul imo. It’s pretty creative and a very nice skill line. The issue is that it restricts itself far too much.

Example:
• Lotus Flower (+morphs) currently only heals yourself OR an ally. I look at Surge on my Sorcerer as an absolutely superior skill. Lotus Flower should heal you and an ally (or even two allies for a lesser amount) to really be worth it. This would not only help Warden survivability, but make them a bit more valuable in raids. Atm this skill sees very little use in PvE.
• Enchanted Growth should have its cost reduced. I never see even Warden Healers use this because the buffs it provides aren’t so strong, yet the cost is high. Therefore it needs to have its cost reduced (currently too high) and maybe even get a small HoT. Increasing the cone size would help too.
• Healing Seed (+morphs) is kind of pathetic in PvE because it is a one-time, delayed heal. I rarely ever see Warden Healers bother with it. They might as well cast a Healing Springs instead of Healing Seed. If this skill had a HoT (not even a strong one) or grantee Minor Vitality to all allies in the circle it would be perfect, and also add a purge to the synergy effect.
• Emerald Moss should be stronger. Lackluster passive. Maybe gives the 1%/2% healing for any heal skill slotted instead of only Green Balance skills.
• Maturation provides a redundant buff. Would be nice if it gave something more useful (a long-time complaint of Wardens)

The actual skills themselves are cool. They just don’t do enough which is why (like you said) Warden Healers barely slot their class healing skills.

In surprised there isn't more love for Budding Seeds. Massive heal with a pretty big radius, plus a very strong synergy. The cost is crazy cheap. My only beef with it has been that 5% of the time it doesn't land because of the ground geometry or it just plain doesn't heal on activation. I'm assuming the missed heal is because of an elevation difference? Or just bugged.

It's probably worth noting that I haven't done trials yet. I get if the cast then activate mechanics are too slow or clunky for a fast paced rotation.