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Khajiit Racial Passive Change

waitwhat
waitwhat
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@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno Just a quick thought on racial passives for Khajiit: How would it be if we swapped the health recovery passive for a 3% cost reduction of stamina abilities, akin to the Breton 3% cost reduction of magicka abilities?

Often the discussion contrasting Khajiit vs. Redguard has focused on Khajiit being higher damage, less sustain, and Redguard being higher sustain, less damage, but perhaps with the passive change mentioned above, we can add a more nuance and balance between the two race as stamina DPS. With the changes to light attack scaling with max stamina, the Redguard will see an increase in DPS, but the modification to Mechanical Acuity with Summerset makes the Khajiit critical chance passive an important consideration. Both races have paths to high, and perhaps equivalent, DPS parses, but only the Redguard has the sustain advantage of Adrenaline Rush. Swapping the Khajiit health recovery racial for a 3% cost reduction would even out the sustain advantages between the two races in an equitable, limited--but effective--manner without blurring the distinctive feel of each race.

This change makes sense post-Morrowind in that we no longer have a cost-reduction CP star to reduce the cost-reduction passive's effectiveness, and it would neatly contrast the Khajiit to the Redguard similarly to how the Breton contrasts with the Altmer (i.e. recovery vs. reduction) without turning Khajiit into "stamina Breton" and Redguard into "stamina altmer" as it were.

What does the rest of the community think about this idea?
PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    I don't think you have to replace the health recovery, just add the 3% stamina cost reduction onto the Carnage passive.

    To further support your thoughts... Khajiit are known for their precision, so it would stand to logic that they could perform a skill as efficiently as possible (and use less energy to perform the skill), therefore fitting into your suggestion for cost reduction.
  • Supernatural
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    I have made one or two regarding Khajiit passives and Khajiit vs. Redguard. Right now I think that everyone can agree that the two races are not really equal. While Mechanical Acuity is no longer meta, which is good for Khajiit, because that set made them irrelevant in end-game Raids, they are still behind Redguard, both in damage and sustain. Crit modifiers have been brutally nerfed over the pass of time (major force, shadow mundus, which is outcritted by warrior (lol) and minor force) and at the same time the morrowind sustain changes just made Redguard a more appealing race. And now with max stamina being more important than before, that disparity will get even bigger.

    So something needs to be done. Either buff Khajiit by giving it some extra stamina or extra critical strike damage done in exchange for the stamina and health recovery, or bring some crit damage modifier bonuses back to their old state. But ZOS will have to be really careful about it.

    And of course it is not just Khajiit. Other races, such as Nord and Breton, struggle as well. I think a whole race rebalance should be done.
    Edited by Supernatural on May 23, 2018 5:54AM
    Maelstrom Arena - World's First Nightblade 600k Score - 02/18/2017
  • IlCanis_LupuslI
    IlCanis_LupuslI
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    Not to mention woodelf.... Behind khajiit damage wise, behind redguard sustain wise.... A whole race rebalancing is needed
    Cp 1490
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  • Silver_Strider
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    The problem with this suggestion is that it doesn't look at the whole game. It's not Khajiit vs Redguard.
    It's Khajiit vs Redguard vs Orc vs Bosmer vs Nord vs Imperial.

    You can't just cherry pick one race to receive a buff, you need to take into account the impact it'll have on every other race in similar positions and adjust them all with equal regard. Of course, you can break this down further as Orc, Imperial and Nord also have tank capabilities and are often seen as the Tank Races but you're still left with adjusting them all so as they are all viable without being completely overshadowed, as is currently the case with Redguard being the supreme Stamina Race in almost every case. The easy solution would be to just nerf Redguard but I prefer a more agreeable solution than heavy handed nerfs.

    To put it simply, Khajiit is a race that should be DPS focused. However, both direct and indirect nerfs have put Khajiit in a precarious spot as it's being out DPS by some of the other races. This wouldn't be a problem if Khajiit had more overall coverage to make up for its shortcomings but it doesn't. It doesn't PvP as well as a Bosmer, it can't Tank as well as Nord, Imperial or Orc and it can't out DPS Redguard (or Orcs in some cases). Khajiit is a DPS race that lacks DPS and that should be the focus of its potency. However, it has a slight snag with this in the form of Stealthy. Stealthy provides a DPS boost in sneak attacks, which are more or less useless in PvE content and while it has value in PvP, Bosmer have the selfsame passive and do so with more sustain and damage to boot.

    The only way Khajiit will get any meaningful DPS buffs is if Stealthy, in general, is nerfed so that there can be room for improvement to its DPS performance without having it overshadow the other races involved. My suggestion would be to replace the Health Regen effect Khajiit's have with 6% max health, nerf Stealthy to increase Stealth Damage by 6% instead of the current 10% and have it add 3% Max Stamina while also upping Carnage from an 8% crit buff to a 9% instead. This would, theoretically, improve Khajiit's DPS performance in both PvP and PvE without making it a clear cut winner over the other Stamina races. The extra health allows for less health being supplemented elsewhere, such as with enchantments or attribute points but not overperform in a Tank role in comparison to Orc, Nords or Imperials, while also having higher DPS but lower sustain than Redguard or Bosmer (who would also benefit from the 3% Max Stamina change to Stealthy, lowering the DPS discrepancy between itself and Redguard). Of course the other stamina races would need to be adjusted accordingly so as they can perform on similar levels as well but that's getting off topic of Khajiit buffs so I'll save them for another discussion.

    Edit: Just to help rationalize my suggestion, I'm going to list a couple of my suggested changes to the rest of the Stamina Races was well as my reasoning for the changes.
    Khajiit
    6% Max Health + 10% Stamina Regen
    6% Stealth Damage + 3% Max Stamina
    9% Crit
    Already put the ideas above so I won't repeat them

    Bosmer
    24% Stamina Regen
    6% Stealth Damage + 3% Max Stamina
    Bosmer get 9% Max Stamina now as well as 3% more regen to help bridge the gap between itself and Redguard without immediately becoming more powerful then them. The nerf to Stealthy is also softened by these slight adjustments that shouldn't improve or negatively affect its PvP performance by much, if at all.

    Nord
    9% Max Stamina + 15% Health Regen
    Damage reduction by 6%, Restore 400 Stamina on hit. 4 second CD on restore effect
    The extra Stamina is to help its overall performance while the Stamina restore effect is useful for both PvP performance and Tank performance, while also being a niche passive in PvE DPS as it won't be triggered often enough to make much difference but should still allow for some mild aid in situations that unavoidable damage occurs. The Nerf to Health Regen was necessary to attempt to balance out its improved PvP performance with the restore passive and extra stamina.

    Orc
    7% Stamina and Health
    Healing Received 5% + Health Regen 15%
    5% Melee Weapon Damage + Sprint Speed/Sprint Cost Reduction.
    Orc currently does decent damage when compared to Redguard and Khajiit but with the buff to Khajiit, Orc would need some slight adjustment to keep it in there as a valid DPS race and with the Nord changes putting it as a good competitor in PvP, it would be unfair for Orc to not get a buff as well and while they are admittedly small buffs, I feel they're balanced since it doesn't have any DPS related sustain passives so the only thing that would need to be adjusted would be its PvP performance which is why the Health Regen nerf was applied here as well. I had also intended to nerf the healing received passive down to 4% but without proper testing of the other changes, I'm not sure if that would be necessary or not and I would hate to nerf their Tank performance any more, especially since the 1% health increase is practically non existent in the long haul.

    Imperial
    Red Diamond changed to restore 600 Health and 400 Stamina. 5 second CD
    Imperial really isn't a bad race, Red Diamond is just really lack luster since its a low proc to restore health only, greatly limiting its performance as a possible DPS candidate and while it does perform adamantly as a Tank race, the buffs to Orcs and Nords could easily offset its performance that this slight adjustment should suffice as a means of balancing them all out in equal measure.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on May 25, 2018 4:38PM
    Argonian forever
  • aeowulf
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    The problem with this suggestion is that it doesn't look at the whole game. It's not Khajiit vs Redguard.
    It's Khajiit vs Redguard vs Orc vs Bosmer vs Nord vs Imperial.

    You can't just cherry pick one race to receive a buff, you need to take into account the impact it'll have on every other race in similar positions and adjust them all with equal regard.

    Agreed with the whole post but especially this bit. I was under the impression each faction was to have one tanky, one mag and one stam race. It's put Imperials in an odd spot, so i'd rework their sustain into (balanced) ultimate return, so it's equally helpful to any role. I'd also probably remove their +stam% and give them +<large>% to their lowest resource pool to bring them into a more balanced area overall (and be a bit different).
    Edited by aeowulf on May 23, 2018 12:32PM
  • evoniee
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    Noone play khaijiit for thoose hp regen cause other character have more sustain abillity.
  • waitwhat
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    These are all helpful comments.

    I would however call to mind the fact that a sustain buff is a DPS buff. Certainly in PvE, sustain is essential for quality DPS.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • waitwhat
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    I would really prefer a decoupling of combat passives from racials, or at least resource passives from racials, akin to the birthsigns/archetypes ideas that have been raised recently. This is the ultimate solution to this problem and will go a long way towards eliminating the angst attending many balance changes every three months or so.

    Absent any more controversial changes, however, this idea of cost reduction would effectively increase khajiit DPS vis-a-vis their primary competitor without breaking the rest of the game's balance.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • Aztlan
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    Take it from a khajiit, this one liked the health recovery passive for PvP. Add stamina recovery, yes, but don't mess with health recovery.
  • Silver_Strider
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    These are all helpful comments.

    I would however call to mind the fact that a sustain buff is a DPS buff. Certainly in PvE, sustain is essential for quality DPS.
    waitwhat wrote: »
    Absent any more controversial changes, however, this idea of cost reduction would effectively increase khajiit DPS vis-a-vis their primary competitor without breaking the rest of the game's balance.

    Again, it does not consider the other races as far as balance goes. Giving Khajiit more sustain hurts Bosmer, which is already weaker DPS wise in PvE content than Khajiit with only its sustain and extra stamina there to lighten the blow somewhat but by weakening that gap, you weaken Bosmer as a whole by cheapening its sustain, which is already overshadowed by Redguard. Please, think of the Bosmer.
    Argonian forever
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    These are all helpful comments.

    I would however call to mind the fact that a sustain buff is a DPS buff. Certainly in PvE, sustain is essential for quality DPS.
    waitwhat wrote: »
    Absent any more controversial changes, however, this idea of cost reduction would effectively increase khajiit DPS vis-a-vis their primary competitor without breaking the rest of the game's balance.

    Again, it does not consider the other races as far as balance goes. Giving Khajiit more sustain hurts Bosmer, which is already weaker DPS wise in PvE content than Khajiit with only its sustain and extra stamina there to lighten the blow somewhat but by weakening that gap, you weaken Bosmer as a whole by cheapening its sustain, which is already overshadowed by Redguard. Please, think of the Bosmer.

    The Bosmer situation doesn't invalidate helping khajiit. Just because something doesn't help Bosmer does not mean that it shouldn't be done.

    Rather, we should implement my suggestion for khajiit, and implement an additional suggestion for Bosmer.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    DPS is not a zero-sum game for placement. Assisting khajiit does not hurt Bosmer.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    These are all helpful comments.

    I would however call to mind the fact that a sustain buff is a DPS buff. Certainly in PvE, sustain is essential for quality DPS.
    waitwhat wrote: »
    Absent any more controversial changes, however, this idea of cost reduction would effectively increase khajiit DPS vis-a-vis their primary competitor without breaking the rest of the game's balance.

    Again, it does not consider the other races as far as balance goes. Giving Khajiit more sustain hurts Bosmer, which is already weaker DPS wise in PvE content than Khajiit with only its sustain and extra stamina there to lighten the blow somewhat but by weakening that gap, you weaken Bosmer as a whole by cheapening its sustain, which is already overshadowed by Redguard. Please, think of the Bosmer.

    The Bosmer situation doesn't invalidate helping khajiit. Just because something doesn't help Bosmer does not mean that it shouldn't be done.

    Rather, we should implement my suggestion for khajiit, and implement an additional suggestion for Bosmer.

    There are alternative ways to help Khajiit without creating power creep. You are thinking about only the PvE side of the game but there is also the PvP side of things. You say to just buff Bosmer if Khajiit get cost reduction but Bosmer is one of the best Stamina races in PvP, despite their shortcomings in PvE, that a buff would most likely just make them even more powerful in PvP, and the PvP community is very vocal in voicing their displeasure on issues that could potentially affect their idea of "balance". Then, there's the issue of buffing the rest of the Stamina races so they don't get left in the dust as well, especially Nords since they've been bottom tier in just about everything since ESO was released.

    It's a lot of power creep and adjusting just for some cost reduction on Khajiit.
    waitwhat wrote: »
    DPS is not a zero-sum game for placement. Assisting khajiit does not hurt Bosmer.

    I'm not saying that you can't help Khajiit, I'm saying that you can't help Khajiit in this specific way since it creates an imbalance in the game. I suggested my own way of helping Khajiit further up in the thread that would help its DPS tremendously while also not creating a level of power creep that this suggestion would.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on May 25, 2018 3:33AM
    Argonian forever
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    evoniee wrote: »
    Noone play khaijiit for thoose hp regen cause other character have more sustain abillity.

    You´ve obviously never faced a Khajiit running with troll-king in PvP then......

    You can basically un-slot vigor, that´s how strong the HP-regen bonus is.
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