ZOS- please stop the power creep- you've made your own content redundant.

Turelus · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

The CP system would be much more palatable if it weren’t a „you can have everything at the same time“ buff menu. If you’d have to make choices that would add a layer to building your character and actually make it interesting. But right now you just can have everything with no downsides.

This is what it was originally sold as and what it started as, but more CP, more front load means more spread into some of everything.

Imagine this system when it's at 2XXX, it's going to be terrible.

Adernath · May 2018

I couldn't agree more with the OP. The CP system really needs a major overwork or the power creep has to be stopped. The main bulk of the PvE content is already far too easy imo and it gets worse and worse each DLC.

ghastley · May 2018

All I'm seeing here is "I want progression, but don't let anybody else have some".

It's almost impossible to make the PvE work for rising players who need challenge to develop, but don't need to be so discouraged that they quit, and also satisfy the veterans who want it hard for them, too. If you add too much of a random element, so you can get lucky and win, then that offends those who want it to be skill-only. If you don't, then it's a pure numbers and practice grind.

Solo PvP is about the only thing any MMO can get right. Any player has access to the same game components, so they can challenge each other on an equal footing. However, once you get groups, then the game gets involved again with group composition rules that nobody can agree on.

Scorpiodisc · May 2018

To everyone complaining about CP. Just don't allocate CP points on your character if you feel CP ruins your gaming experience. But that is not good enough, right?

Everyone should be forced to play the game the way you want them to play the game because you know what everyone else should want, right?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2018

Scorpiodisc wrote: »

To everyone complaining about CP. Just don't allocate CP points on your character if you feel CP ruins your gaming experience. But that is not good enough, right?

Everyone should be forced to play the game the way you want them to play the game because you know what everyone else should want, right?

Will that also prevent my favorite class abilities from getting nerf after nerf because other people are able to solo vet dungeons with their 'gaming experience'? Can I also have my 5K magicka and stamina back that was stolen from my character and locked behind the CP system for me to grind back?

Or are we still pretending the power creep doesn't affect you if you simply don't allocate CP?

EvilCroc · May 2018

The goal of becoming stronger is to make content easy.
If you do not want easy walking - do not be strong.
Do not allocate CP, do not use min-max builds, etc.

RoyalPink06 · May 2018

What happens when we hit absolute max cp and there’s nothing left to put points into because everything is full? How will we advance our characters then?

Feanor · May 2018

EvilCroc wrote: »

The goal of becoming stronger is to make content easy.
If you do not want easy walking - do not be strong.
Do not allocate CP, do not use min-max builds, etc.

That’s a common misconception. It isn’t any way harder. It’s just a longer, more tedious walk. Bucket & Broom vMA clears were a thing for example.

karekiz · May 2018

MakoFore wrote: »

Dungeons are mindlessly easy now- they already were- but now even the latest dungeons, scale and fang , hard modes- well designed bosses, can be burned ,skipping the actually well designed mechanics.

I want stats on Dungeonz are EZ LUL.

I would bet vast amounts of people haven't completed HM Vet content. I know im in a guild that easily 90% hasn't done HM DLC dungeons. Just ran a very good player <Regularly does VMA etc> through Vet Fang Lair *NON* HM even. Because every single time he tried to PuG it the group failed.

VaranisArano · May 2018

RoyalPink06 wrote: »

What happens when we hit absolute max cp and there’s nothing left to put points into because everything is full? How will we advance our characters then?

Why do you think ZOS keeps nerfing gear and classes too? Once you hit max CP, the grind is for meta gear/classes and the meta for gear and which classes are ForM keeps changing.

Taysa · May 2018

Uviryth wrote: »

Without the CPsystem no one would play the game anymore, because there would be literally no way to advance your character. And no mmo works without an infinite horizontal progression.

What?

I don't play this game to grind CP endlessly. I don't know anyone who does.

There are a few MMOs that work without infinite horizontal progression, so you're wrong on that account.

MaleAmazon · May 2018

It's almost impossible to make the PvE work for rising players who need challenge to develop, but don't need to be so discouraged that they quit, and also satisfy the veterans who want it hard for them, too.

We´ve been through this. It is NOT hard. The only thing you have to do is make it so that harder difficulty settings work on the PLAYER, not the ENEMY. Basically, put in a player debuff paired with some extra reward that players can opt into. There, you have your overland veteran mode for anyone who wants it, with zero effect for all those who do not actively choose it.

I would bet vast amounts of people haven't completed HM Vet content. I know im in a guild that easily 90% hasn't done HM DLC dungeons. Just ran a very good player <Regularly does VMA etc> through Vet Fang Lair *NON* HM even. Because every single time he tried to PuG it the group failed.

That has to do with the fact that it is exactly 4529925000% harder to get a good 4-man group going than to be a good player yourself, though.

karekiz · May 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

That has to do with the fact that it is exactly 4529925000% harder to get a good 4-man group going than to be a good player yourself, though.

If everything was super ez you wouldn't "need a good 4 man group". You would need an ok Healer or tank + 1 DPS and just clear the entire dungeon duo. Which you *can* do in classic vet sure, but its a hell of a lot harder in newer dungeons <Those scaled to higher CP>.

*Edit:

Yes I know, even hard dungeons can be done duo etc. We have seen Vet DLC solo'd, but that doesn't entirely count as you can't and shouldn't base your design around the 1% for group play on regular vet <HM Sure, but not regular vet>. A great example is the amount of posts of "How do I kill the bone bosses in fang lair" my groups keep wiping. If it was truly just EZ any group burn, those wouldn't exist because the mob would be dead in 30 seconds. The last game I played basically any pug could burn 90% of group content <The Secret World> it really isn't like that here.

Orjix · May 2018

MakoFore wrote: »

vMA- once the measure of solo play- is now essentially as normal mode was a year and half ago.

Lmao and I still can't come anywhere close to beating it

Lokryn · May 2018

Dungeons feel about right but I agree that the quest/overland content is ridiculously too easy.

martinhpb16_ESO · May 2018

Overland content and daily dungeons have become so easy they are absolutely redundant. Some players enjoy the story so just do them a favour and take combat out of questing entirely as its totally pointless now.

I stopped playing LOTRO after 7 years and came to ESO for this very reason. There was an actual challenge in ESO and a sense of progression.

If I can complete content on an alt using light attacks on a class for which I have no idea how to play, who is in totally sub-level gear then something is seriously wrong. I do not accept that the ESO player base is so inedpt that it needs content at this silly level of difficulty.

Like the OP says you are creating redundant content.

I should be excited about this new update but tbh it just feels like a chore I have to complete to get to the other side

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2018

Power Creep is inevitable in an MMO if you want new content with new gear, skills, etc. Certainly, CP contributes to this in ESO, but acting like power creep would be removed if CP were removed is short sighted and frankly incorrect.

I go back and forth on CP. I like the fact that I feel a little more powerful each patch, and I like the fact that we have some sort of measuring stick to reflect time and experience in the game, but I hate that it acts as a barrier for a lot of players. My brother who is a phenomenal gamer (nationally competitive in counter strike) got a character to level 50 and was like, you want me to do what now? Yeah, I am gonna go play something else. Now maybe MMOs werent for him, but he will never really know.

If it were up to me, I would greatly ramp up the CP acquisition pre-cap and restrict it even further post-cap, but probably starting to get off topic. Haha.

Tandor · May 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

First thing to stop endless power creep is by removing broken system called Champion Points.

I couldn't agree more.
For me personally I've not seen much good come from the CP system and it's only caused more issues than it solved. They should have just made Veteran levels account wide (like CP) and stuck with that system.

CP is neat and I like the idea behind it, but it should never have become a system where it increased power, or if it does remove the double dip (attribute bonus) to start with. I remember when this was announced and talked about as the whole parts of a whole, slices of pie thing at the guild summit and it sounded great.
It didn't work that way though, it just become more of the same buff everything on your character with no meaningful choice required.

Or perhaps it's the fact that CPs are account-wide that means we have this issue in the first place? A lot of the triviality argument is down to the fact that players are rolling alts and allocating hundreds of CPs to them straight off the block. I don't see how replacing one account-wide system with another one will solve anything.

Some form of continuing character progression throughout a game is necessary in order to give playing it a sense of purpose. Every character should progress through its own efforts, and continue to level up beyond 50 by the same method as before 50 - in levels. With the mobs scaling as well the game should be no less challenging after 50 as before 50. Some adjustment in the mob difficulty levels may be needed for the higher level characters but lower level characters would find it more challenging than now because they wouldn't be running round say Bleakrock Isle with 750 CPs. What's so special about level 50 that we have to turn the game on its head at that point?

Sektion67 · May 2018

In one of the new Summerset Public Dungeons, I stood still allowing a "boss" to whale on me in hopes to see some of his mechanics. Then... I blew him up in seconds, and I'm a healer, not even a dps. It's a problem for sure, and one that will alienate long time players if nothing changes.

Also, to the people saying, "don't allocate CP, run around naked, etc." Okay, well how about some QOL improvements then? Allow us multiple specs, that will swap gear sets, or a toggle on/off for CP. No one is going to reallocate points, spending a ton of time and gold, to run a nerf build for some overland content, then spec back into a viable spec for some trials, dungeons or PVP.

This topic comes up constantly for a reason, and it's not getting any better. Quite the opposite.

Kel · May 2018

CP's are the problem? Is that why I'm seeing 720's light attacking and constantly dying in dungeons?
What's easy for you isn't easy for everyone, obviously. Even those at the cp limit....

Edit: If it was truly as easy you're trying to say cp's make it, these players could just light attack through dungeons. You may be more skilled than others, so when you're still finding the content too easy, what will be next to go?
MMO mentality freaks me out sometimes..this is a good case. You always hear "It's a mmo...it's about group play and playing with others!" Yet when it comes to changes like this, it's always about what you personally want to see, the group of others be dammed, because of your personal opinion or enjoyment. It's weird.

Scorpiodisc · May 2018

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Scorpiodisc wrote: »

To everyone complaining about CP. Just don't allocate CP points on your character if you feel CP ruins your gaming experience. But that is not good enough, right?

Everyone should be forced to play the game the way you want them to play the game because you know what everyone else should want, right?

Will that also prevent my favorite class abilities from getting nerf after nerf because other people are able to solo vet dungeons with their 'gaming experience'? Can I also have my 5K magicka and stamina back that was stolen from my character and locked behind the CP system for me to grind back?

Or are we still pretending the power creep doesn't affect you if you simply don't allocate CP?

If you are looking for a more challenging experience, then none of those things should bother you. Or are we still going to pretend that power creep is an actual issue for everyone?

Scorpiodisc · May 2018

double post my bad

Scorpiodisc · May 2018

I keep trying to edit and it keeps making a new post, sorry

zaria · May 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Power Creep is inevitable in an MMO if you want new content with new gear, skills, etc. Certainly, CP contributes to this in ESO, but acting like power creep would be removed if CP were removed is short sighted and frankly incorrect.

I go back and forth on CP. I like the fact that I feel a little more powerful each patch, and I like the fact that we have some sort of measuring stick to reflect time and experience in the game, but I hate that it acts as a barrier for a lot of players. My brother who is a phenomenal gamer (nationally competitive in counter strike) got a character to level 50 and was like, you want me to do what now? Yeah, I am gonna go play something else. Now maybe MMOs werent for him, but he will never really know.

If it were up to me, I would greatly ramp up the CP acquisition pre-cap and restrict it even further post-cap, but probably starting to get off topic. Haha.

Agree, you want an low level power creep in pve, CP works very well for this.
Yes its an buff but you can get cp750 who spam snipe and you can get cp200 who is stormproof.
I play non cp campaign in cyrodil, average skill level is much closer to my own.
In PvP CP is more effective as it boost your dps and increase your resistance. Later is not so important in PvE as you have an tank and heale (outside of some stuff like vBC1.

)

Abelon · May 2018

Since we are talking about an alternative to ESO's CP system I would also suggest a perk system of sorts. Don't remove CP, remove the stat boosts.

One of the examples could be GW2, which is, imo, generally not better than this game, but I feel that their mastery points system is more thought through. You get different perks and "skills," most tied to the expansions they come out with (for example for navigating the new land), some giving minor quality of life improvements (running speed in cities boost and auto-loot).

Although I do believe that it's too late to make such drastic changes at this point.

Karivaa · May 2018

Wow, you mean they have not been scaling the mobs etc to 750? Ugh! No wonder I’ve been able to kill everything with my healer lol.

MaleAmazon · May 2018

If everything was super ez you wouldn't "need a good 4 man group". You would need an ok Healer or tank + 1 DPS and just clear the entire dungeon duo. Which you *can* do in classic vet sure, but its a hell of a lot harder in newer dungeons <Those scaled to higher CP>.

Thing is there is almost no difficulty curve in the game. You have stuff you can SMASH through on vet, and then stuff where you just run into a brick wall. And vet Fang Lair is one of the latter.

I know it took me 1-2 weeks to tank PUG vFH XD. In the end I went through like 20 (possible exaggeration) PUGgers on the last boss, they would quit quit quit over the course of an hour or so (of course frequently standing out in the open when the grovel shout comes and then "OMG 100000 damage oneshot too OP bye"), until in the end people got guildmates and we burned through the boss getting several mechanics at once since DPS was so high. So I mean I didn´t even really PUG it, technically.

And for me, the stuff I haven´t cleared in the game is 97% because I haven´t been able to find a good enough group, 3% because I don´t care about it. From the limited chat I´ve had with others, this is kinda common.

rustic_potato · May 2018

The CP system by itself is not a bad idea but the amount of combat bonus it provides makes power creep inevitable. The best comparison I could draw is GW2 mastery system, it provides insane QOL upgrades without affecting combat for the most part.

runicnomad · May 2018

Well I think the focus on CP removal lacks a broader perspective.

What needs to happen is that difficulty settings need to be implemented and old content retooled for greater challenge.
Since instance functionality exists and so does scaling it is a viable option to offer the standard 3 levels of difficulty to play in at launch of game. this way you can be instanced in with other players in those difficulty tiers across the entire world.

As a returning player I recall the game being fairly easy at launch but you had to avoid things and different fights could be a challenge. Now it is a joke. Even without max CP avoiding mechanics is an RP option as is blocking dodging etc. in a lot of the content. Might as well add a skill in that is called one shot because that is almost as it is.

this game has sexy Lore and actually cool mechanics for numerous things. but the challenge level is pathetic and it often literally puts me to sleep while playing. no sense of risk anywhere unless you RP it in your own head.

I do not think a removal of the CP system is a fix because without that there is no progression and itemization is not at all set up for gear progression.

A difficulty level would allow for people to one shot easy mode and also offer a challenge to those who really really long for the days of MMOs that have actual challenge and are not just hand holding walk from marker A to marker B on auto pilot. What is interesting is that the way games are made in MMO land today they are almost setup for bots and auto play yet they all seem to absolutely block botting and AI control.

This game with its heavy lore and amazing world should really have far more engaging challenges in the world that require attention to overcome. Unfortunately I am not sure we will get this added challenge and we might even see even more easy mode into the future.

karekiz · May 2018

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Thing is there is almost no difficulty curve in the game. You have stuff you can SMASH through on vet, and then stuff where you just run into a brick wall. And vet Fang Lair is one of the latter.

Its progression though: If your doing Vet FH your past the point of classic Dungeons.

Classic Vet 1 -> Vet 2 <Some of them> -> ICP/WGT -> Newer DLC <Order of difficulty changes per person thoughts. I think Vet HM CoS is the third easiest HM past ICP/WGT others don't>.

Classic Vet 1 I don't even think were scaled properly as I think they were introduced later in the game correct? They defninitely are balanced for brand new level 50 teams <CP 10>. A 4 man team of CP 10 would have a rather tough time in DLC. So yes there is a curve, and ZoS is handling it slightly better now <300+ to que for DLC dungeons, rather than way long ago where you could get a brand new 50 then a 160, and now 300>.

In general Progression goes:
Classic vet 1's with some 2's: CP 10 - 160
Classic Vet 2 City of Ash <Crypt of hearts 2 I think as well?>: 160
DLC: 300

Remember it would be balanced toward a *full* group of CP 10-160 for easiest dungeons not one lone CP 10 guy with 3 500+ CP. Each Dungeon DLC we get new tougher dungeons.

And no just making fungal grotto "hit harder with more HP" wouldn't do anything

As for the Vet FH. That burn isn't just CP. Its also what your group is running gear set wise, class wise <Was this pre stamina debuff for example with mostly stam? with Alkosh tank?>. Was it 1 tank + 3 DPS? Also was this HM?

*EDIT:
I am not opposed to more difficult content, but it is a bit overboard to say CP makes everyone burn through content before mechanics spawn as it is a huge variable.

What if they just made a NO CP dungeon mode to make you guys happy. PvP already does this so the system is in place. Reward for completion on final boss <Auto HM cause ya know more difficult> is a gold geode/rare chance for gold rings/neck. You also gain undaunted plunder X5 once per account as a mail reward per dungeon. Must kill all bosses to recieve Rewards.