Stibbons wrote: »

-10% to crit heals was huge nerf. Plenty of crap skills with huge cast time, just poor or basically too expensive. Now i can retire my magplar completely to crafting

You can thank the Nightblades for this one. They got so salty only their passive was being changed they successfully guided the conversation to make that change include templar passive, shadow mundas, and other forms of crit dmg stats.

Honestly, it is a good change. But it required a more balanced discussion that it deserved.

Solariken wrote: »

Yeah I hear you OP but I also think it was necessary (Templar main here). In theory the spec that will feel it most is high weapon damage stamplar, and I think it's better balance when huge offense means sacrificing a little defense.

I agree. It's intent is to damage high dmg builds thinking they can get it all.

But it came too late; especially with defiles, defense stripping, and other nerfs that probably should of never happened.

Minno wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

-10% to crit heals was huge nerf. Plenty of crap skills with huge cast time, just poor or basically too expensive. Now i can retire my magplar completely to crafting

You can thank the Nightblades for this one. They got so salty only their passive was being changed they successfully guided the conversation to make that change include templar passive, shadow mundas, and other forms of crit dmg stats.

Honestly, it is a good change. But it required a more balanced discussion that it deserved.

Semi-fake news.

It was reported after Dragon Bones patch that Hemorrhage passive didn't apply to healing i.e. was bugged so once dev responded that is intended and not bugged...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/395286/nightblade-passive-hemorrhage-bugged-and-not-working/p1

Everything else is history.

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

-10% to crit heals was huge nerf. Plenty of crap skills with huge cast time, just poor or basically too expensive. Now i can retire my magplar completely to crafting

You have to thank nightblades. Its for every class across board , not templars alone. Argument has to reworded.

I agree, its change was to fix crit dmg.

But they forgot they nerfed healing strength for templars along with stripping our defensive strength because we had major mending . Then they nerfed us again because we were still over performing, which resulting in minor mending. Then they removed the crit dmg without compensation.

It's not like NB's don't have other sources to recoup this (cloak granting a crit heal, ability to reposition via shade then cloak, passive dodge chance on a mag cost, etc). Unlike templars who saw their main defense removed (blinding flashes), their main spamable defense nerfed numerous times (blazing shield), and healing reduced.

Anyone else find it incredibly ironic that their reason for buffing puncturing sweeps heal was that it "puts them more in line with other classes, since they dont have major mending up all tge time (or...ever?)".

Then they Nerf crit heals XD. Just too much. The sense of these developers is *** mind blowing.

I'm just laughing at the sound me pronouncing how they spelled "unnecessary". Un-nes-assery". I'm too new to follow this conversation, but that title was good for a laugh at least.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Blame NBs? Lol... you cant be that naive to think this passive modifier wasnt going to be addressed accross the board. It has absolutely nothing to do with NBs being vocal.

Or do you honesty think it was NBs fault that it came to light to begin with and would have been better kept from the developers.

Both stances are comical. Deal with it amd blame no one but the devs for poor coding.

Maybe, but NBs didn't have to be the annoying little narky kid who screams "But what about HER! She still gets to keep the heal"

They shouldn't have done it to either. Weapon damage affects heals.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Blame NBs? Lol... you cant be that naive to think this passive modifier wasnt going to be addressed accross the board. It has absolutely nothing to do with NBs being vocal.

Or do you honesty think it was NBs fault that it came to light to begin with and would have been better kept from the developers.

Both stances are comical. Deal with it amd blame no one but the devs for poor coding.

They could have said "hey crit DMG modifiers changed for us, we think it should change across the board because this seems fair, but be careful regarding other healing classes/builds that were raw nerfed in the past. They might need compensation here. ::List ideas for compensation::"

Because while some classes can weather this (nightblades/wardens), others don't have similar tools for defense/DMG (Templars) or have crap healing/zero hots with no class execute (DKs). Hell even sorcs are worse off than nightblades with this change, they have a heal locked behind a pet and crit surge requires a crit DMG to proc a heal lol.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

exiars10 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

-10% to crit heals was huge nerf. Plenty of crap skills with huge cast time, just poor or basically too expensive. Now i can retire my magplar completely to crafting

You can thank the Nightblades for this one. They got so salty only their passive was being changed they successfully guided the conversation to make that change include templar passive, shadow mundas, and other forms of crit dmg stats.

Honestly, it is a good change. But it required a more balanced discussion that it deserved.

Semi-fake news.

It was reported after Dragon Bones patch that Hemorrhage passive didn't apply to healing i.e. was bugged so once dev responded that is intended and not bugged...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/395286/nightblade-passive-hemorrhage-bugged-and-not-working/p1

Everything else is history.

Except many of the beginning statements in that thread were "WHY YOU INTRODUCE BUG to NB? WHY NO CHANGE TO OTHER PEOPLE, UG UG":

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

so i have finally had some time to sit down and test, here are the results.



here is my magblade-

funnel health-



assassins will



sap essance damage-



and sap essence heal, sap will

here is my stamblade, ignore the low stats, had to take off TFS for easier results

endless hail, ignore all but the last few, had to build up hawk eye



blood craze, major butaily dropped halfway through.



light attacks



Poision injection



surprize attack, major fracture was on after the first hit.



and finally vigor and leeching strikes heal.

so it appears that i may have been a chicken little, the CHD is working with damaging skills but not for heals and most interestingly is the leeching strikes heal only has a CHD of 50%, meaning it is using the spell CHD modifier and not stam like the skill ought to.

and to those people that think that this is intended, explain why the Piercing spear passive works on heals when that passive says the same, "Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted." vs "WITH AN ASSASSINATION ABILITY SLOTTED Increases your Critical Damage done by 10%" for hemorrhage.

i tested on my stamplar here-

blood craze damage



blood craze heals and vigor using the Piercing spear passive

Then when Gina confirmed it was originally a bug that they fixed, they got even more salty:

Own wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, apologies for the confusion here. We actually had a fix for Hemorrhage in Update 17 (with Dragon Bones) so it now only procs off Critical Damage.

Then why does the templar passive, piercing spear, that does the same thing, add 10% crit hit damage, apply to heals? And the shadow mundas, it reads "increases your critical damage done by x" and it still applies to heals. What about the hemorrhage passive needed fixing but these did not?


And thanks for the clarification.

Agreed. The rest of class passives like this should be changed quickly as well as shadow.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Its working just fine on both Magblade and Stamblade from my testing.

you do get the extra 10% from hemorrhage for damage. the problem is heals. @ZOS_GinaBruno say this is intentional but what i don't understand what about the Piercing spear passive makes it special over hemorrhage, as that passive works on heals when that passive says the same, "Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted."

same with the shadow mundus, it says "increases your critical damage done by x"

to take this further, both minor and major force also apply to heals, even though the skill that provide them dont say it, ie trap beast with "Set a sharpened blade trap at your location, which takes 1.5 seconds to arm and lasts for 1 minute. When triggered, the trap deals 2048 Physical Damage, an additional 5391 Physical Damage over 6 seconds, immobilizes the enemy for 6 seconds, and grants you Minor Force, increasing your Critical Damage done by 10%."

with Stalwart Guard, "Create a lifebond between you and an allied player. While bonded, 30% of the damage they take is instead redistributed to you. You and your bonded ally also gain Minor Force, increasing your Critical Strike Damage by 10%. The bond will remain until you recast the spell or move more than 15 meters away from your ally. You and your bonded ally also gain Minor Force, increasing your Critical Strike Damage.", granded this skill says "strike" but it still says "damage as well.

lastly Aggressive Horn, "Sound a war horn to rally your forces, increasing you and your allies' Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 10% and granting Minor Toughness, increasing your Max Health by 10% for 30 seconds. You and your allies gain Major Force, increasing your Critical Damage done by 15% for 9.5 seconds. You and your allies gain Major Force for a brief period after activation.

all these this say damage in them, yet still apply to heals, i ask again, what about hemorrhage was broken and needed to be fixed but the rest of these don't?

And then when the discussion turned to Templar/NB healers who would have seen the worse from this blind change, I believe the rest of the thread went radio silent, except to make sure Gina followed through with the team to make sure NB crit dmg wasnt the only change:

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Its working just fine on both Magblade and Stamblade from my testing.

you do get the extra 10% from hemorrhage for damage. the problem is heals. @ZOS_GinaBruno say this is intentional but what i don't understand what about the Piercing spear passive makes it special over hemorrhage, as that passive works on heals when that passive says the same, "Increases your Critical Damage done and your damage against blocking targets by 10% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted."

same with the shadow mundus, it says "increases your critical damage done by x"

to take this further, both minor and major force also apply to heals, even though the skill that provide them dont say it, ie trap beast with "Set a sharpened blade trap at your location, which takes 1.5 seconds to arm and lasts for 1 minute. When triggered, the trap deals 2048 Physical Damage, an additional 5391 Physical Damage over 6 seconds, immobilizes the enemy for 6 seconds, and grants you Minor Force, increasing your Critical Damage done by 10%."

with Stalwart Guard, "Create a lifebond between you and an allied player. While bonded, 30% of the damage they take is instead redistributed to you. You and your bonded ally also gain Minor Force, increasing your Critical Strike Damage by 10%. The bond will remain until you recast the spell or move more than 15 meters away from your ally. You and your bonded ally also gain Minor Force, increasing your Critical Strike Damage.", granded this skill says "strike" but it still says "damage as well.

lastly Aggressive Horn, "Sound a war horn to rally your forces, increasing you and your allies' Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 10% and granting Minor Toughness, increasing your Max Health by 10% for 30 seconds. You and your allies gain Major Force, increasing your Critical Damage done by 15% for 9.5 seconds. You and your allies gain Major Force for a brief period after activation.

all these this say damage in them, yet still apply to heals, i ask again, what about hemorrhage was broken and needed to be fixed but the rest of these don't?

Minno wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, apologies for the confusion here. We actually had a fix for Hemorrhage in Update 17 (with Dragon Bones) so it now only procs off Critical Damage.

Then why does the templar passive, piercing spear, that does the same thing, add 10% crit hit damage, apply to heals? And the shadow mundas, it reads "increases your critical damage done by x" and it still applies to heals. What about the hemorrhage passive needed fixing but these did not?


And thanks for the clarification.

Piercing Spear shouldn't actually affect healing either; that will be adjusted in the next update.

Thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno!. Sad to see though, because of the fact Templar lost major mending because our heals were overperforming. Will the team be looking at compensating by giving back healing buffs to both Templar+NB?

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue thoughts on the class passives of NB and temps not providing the extra 10% for heals, only damage?

On one hand it helps lower the total amount of healing amps in the game, which will help balance PvP a lot (although that means Befouled CP needs to be adjusted as well).

On the other hand it totally sucks that strengths of some classes are being taken away for no real reason, other than to seemingly match the tooltip more coherently. Odd that they chose to change this when other tooltips flat out lie or give complete misinformation.

exeeter702 wrote: »

A significant nerf to nb healing. But there actual hps was higher than every other healer when properly set up to heal, so no a big deal.

And it didn't heavily phase NB healers according to some NB healer mains in that thread so claim NB healers boast the strongest heals when built right. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Wheres the compensation for classes that had defense/healing stripped with the crit healing dmg also removed?

Hey, that's me, for the record, my favorite class and one I have the most time on is a Templar healer in pve but I have one of each class, stam/mag and I made that thread because I want all classes to perform like they ought to. I hate the changes and think it is 100% because of PvP, people thinking the person they are killing are not dieing fast enough, so they nerfed healing, again. I think all crit damage modifiers ought to apply to healing as well, if nothing else to keep it consistent with the way healing scales with Max stats and spell damage just like damage does in the game.

Hey man, sorry to throw you under the bus there. I admit I wore blinders here andI know you mean well and give quality posts!

I feel the change is actually good for the game. I just know some nightblades that disagree with the crit DMG change at the time, so I'm seeing salt through my glasses lol.

If mag classes could have greater access to HOTs, the change wouldn't be that bad. More heals ticking means more crit heals. More crit heals > 1 beefer crit heal with marginal others. Means more efficiency in your kit across all aspects of play. But then again some classes also don't get extra crit chance that nightblades can, so it's more limiting for other classes to use crit chance to offset the loss on crit DMG.

I agree as well that if DMG can crit and scale off DMG, that healing being the direct counter to damage should scale off the same stats. But I guess this means major mending return to some classes that lost it, while befouled taking a Nerf if there crit DMG loss stays. Lots of discussions!

In the context of a revamped templar toolkit, this change would be fine. This patch we got 5% more healing per tick of Sweeps, which in my book would be preferable to 10% higher spike heals -- if we had a reliable way to land Sweeps. Right now Time Stop is looking like it could fill that gap, but it remains to be seen if that's just a matter of players being unused to the skill. But one way or another I think this change is a step in the right direction, since taken together the changes make our passive, offensive healing more reliable. But a core problem with magplar remains: the only way to get our passive, offensive healing in the first place is either to give up the ability to CC a target or to use something outside the class toolkit (Time Stop, Frost Reach, etc.) to root/stun the target long enough that they stand in one place for 1.5 seconds. We need a root somewhere in our toolkit.

So what I understand from reading this thread ... And keep.in mind I main a Templar and run two other templars plus one of each other class

Best way to create balance is to make them all the same.

So choosing nightblades over Templar would actually be purely cosmetic

So templars have jabs give NB jabs but use ethereal daggers instead of a spear ...

Frankly that's mental ... The whole idea if classes is so we have differing play styles differing strengths

Yes all classes should be able to compete in any of the three roles but it's thier uniqueness that would give them an edge in a role

So a nightblades can pull a 40k parse that's cool but they're glass cannons making more work for the healer ... A Templar should be able to hit say 30k but have the advantage of being less of resource on the healer.

You then build synergies that compliment builds together ritual of retribution gets dropped .. a healer class uses the synergy it buffs the healing a DD uses it it buff the damage out put.

This game could be made so great if they focussed on making the classes compliment each other instead of against each other

PvP will always have it's meta and its top performers I love PvP I probably play if the most but instead of balancing how s nightblades can beat a Templar balance how they would perform if they worked together against another Templar n nightblade

As duals they're one v one ... The differences have to be enough to create a stalemate that way it boils down to champion point placement , gear and ultimately skill of the player

I put skilled last as a skilled player will know what best set to use and what best CP placement for themselves to compliment their own playstyle

Instead we are seeing ZoS trying to shoehorn us into all being the same for balance ... That's dull and results in no fun

I think the nerf was needed.

Healbots is something that kill PvP. Take noobs, add 3 noobs healer and then they will perform far better. It kills the low skill VS high skill reward.

With the little buffs that came to damageplar (5% more heal on sweep, more magicka back when used HoTD in spam situations) it's ok.

The true problem is defile. When you have it it's too strong, and when you haven't it you'r useless.

An other thing that affect a lot magplar is their imbalance to heal facing stam or mag. Not speaking about defile being avaible to only 1 magclass, but I'm speaking about the best CP passive in the game, Vengeance that make templar block casting
VS magicka a burst heal with 100% critical chance. It should also apply to stam, because stam defile is what killing magplar.