These Dawnbreakers...

Lexxypwns · May 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

No stam spec is superior to mageblade as raid damage, in a vacuum. As long as vicious death is magika only bomb blade is simply more efficient and effective. Plus it has a larger aoe range making your burst less likely to be mitigated by spreading

@Lexxypwns
I actually disagree. Bomblades are still really important and they do better AOE burst, but in most raids I see, the most raw damage done for the entire session is done by stamina. This is why you are seeing so many groups running stam at this point. You still need bomblades, but you dont need as many.

Total damage done is almost completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is spike damage and as long as you can get 1 VD proc Mageblade has superior spike damage.

Stam warden is more survivable, more mobile, offers superior group buffs, and has a smaller amount of burst that is available more often. The higher availability of said burst allows a raid lead more opportunities to deliver a potentially lethal ulti dump.

However, a stam warden bomb is significantly less damage than a mageblade bomb in the presence of a Vicious Death proc.

This is why I prefaced my statement with”in a vacuum” as there are other considerations than just who has the dankest bombs that goes into raid comp.

I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment of your assessment at all, I’m just pointing out that it’s a matter of things besides just damage that is making stam warden appealing.

The correlation you’re seeing with more stamina raids isn’t because stam warden is a better damage spec, it’s because stam warden can do more than just bomb. A raid that depends solely on mageblade bombs is all about delivering the bomb on target, with stam warden you have more tools available for your group overall while delivering a smaller burst

Toc de Malsvi · May 2018

I think the fact that Steel Tornado is one of the only undodgeable executes while also being the only AOE execute, is being overlooked by many on here when considering the wave of DW stam builds. Shuffle, Blur, dodgeroll are all useless against it, and why execute one player when you can execute 4 or 5 at once. It's literally perfect for small ball groups that want to roll over people without having to explicitly target them.

Steel Tornado stacked behind DBOS and you have very easy AOE burst and execute that is independent of targetting and negates the primary defense of stamina. This makes these setups both stronger as stamina and stronger against stamina. I have seen a flood of them always running 3 or more thick and just nut-hugging their buddies. They live and die in packs, for the most part they lack the ability to fight anyone solo but rely on overwhelming players with numbers and AOE burst. It just so happens that the strongest counter to AOE burst is DW skills and counter burst.

Solariken · May 2018

I love Dawnbreaker, but I've been saying for a long time that it's too strong. Like, way too strong. It dwarfs all other ults to the point where there is basically no choice in PvP.

Vapirko · May 2018

Solariken wrote: »

I love Dawnbreaker, but I've been saying for a long time that it's too strong. Like, way too strong. It dwarfs all other ults to the point where there is basically no choice in PvP.

It’s not too strong, don’t make that mistake. Are other stamina ults under performing or non existent (aside from incap)? Yes. Warden, Templar and most sorc ults are awful and DK leap is good but really buggy, same with meteor. Imo meteor does need to have some draw back because it’s ranged but idk if it should be blockable. Or the animation needs to change so it’s not so awful. Anyway that’s a different discussion. DBoS is one of the most well designed and effective skills in the game and it should be a point of reference for other ults, not nerfed so there’s no good ults to use.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

Yeah, I'm often not too cautious. But I mean, I go through being "Incap Striked" by a number or people within a few seconds. It's an ulti with a very distinct sound, and it feels the stun is easier to break out of - or perhaps it's just that you don't die almost instantly from it. LOL With Dawnbreaker I'm still clueless sometimes, like "Hmmm, what really hit me there? Ahh, two different Dawnbreakers, and yeah - the dot tics from those. Nice...".

NB have frontloaded burst, most use Incap as a (semi-) opener for the (stun,) defile and 20% dmg boon. What kills you in an NB brust combo is the follow up.
While on the other hand many people use a DB midway through their combo, only followed by an light attack and an execute. Mostly you've already got a (couple of) DoTs (Poison Injection), Gap Closer, shalks, light attack, Dizzy and/or whatever on you when they drop the DB. That's why the little skull symbol often appears next to DB on your recap.
An incap alone won't kill someone. But also a DB alone won't kill you. However, 3 Ultimates (that have burst + dot) should always get you into trouble.

That plus the extra dmg against undeads is why DB seems so strong.

Anti_Virus · May 2018

A stamden using Sub assault plus dawnbreaker plus steelnado makes me rage.

Vapirko · May 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

A stamden using Sub assault plus dawnbreaker plus steelnado makes me rage.

The zerg fotm will always have this effect, just the way it works. But imo the rage inducing zerg tactics peeked with the destro pain train meta prior to eots nerfs. Honestly I don’t find the warden/DBoS/steel tornado meta to be anywhere near as bad. I will say though, that it feels as if Summerset has the chance to bring some real salt with the Psijic order line and how strong mag builds will be.

LittlePinkDot · May 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I think the fact that Steel Tornado is one of the only undodgeable executes while also being the only AOE execute, is being overlooked by many on here when considering the wave of DW stam builds. Shuffle, Blur, dodgeroll are all useless against it, and why execute one player when you can execute 4 or 5 at once. It's literally perfect for small ball groups that want to roll over people without having to explicitly target them.

Steel Tornado stacked behind DBOS and you have very easy AOE burst and execute that is independent of targetting and negates the primary defense of stamina. This makes these setups both stronger as stamina and stronger against stamina. I have seen a flood of them always running 3 or more thick and just nut-hugging their buddies. They live and die in packs, for the most part they lack the ability to fight anyone solo but rely on overwhelming players with numbers and AOE burst. It just so happens that the strongest counter to AOE burst is DW skills and counter burst.

I had a duel with a sorc yesterday and I noticed something odd. My steel tornado didnt seem to execute, but my surprise attack hurt way more. I ended up killing the sorc with surprise attack. Is there something about surprise attack that goes through shields or something?
We were both noobs. Sorc was trying to use mages wrath as a spammable and not an execute.

Anti_Virus · May 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

A stamden using Sub assault plus dawnbreaker plus steelnado makes me rage.

The zerg fotm will always have this effect, just the way it works. But imo the rage inducing zerg tactics peeked with the destro pain train meta prior to eots nerfs. Honestly I don’t find the warden/DBoS/steel tornado meta to be anywhere near as bad. I will say though, that it feels as if Summerset has the chance to bring some real salt with the Psijic order line and how strong mag builds will be.

I wonder what happened to the destro train meta?

WeylandLabs · May 2018

#1 Earthgore
#2 Stop watching YouTube for builds. People like myself and others only watch them just to counter them.
#3 Stop thinking Vampires and Werewolves are OP, vampires only used for mist form and bats and passives. Werewolves still suck unless your in a pack.
#4L2P

Jeezye · May 2018

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2018

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

Toc de Malsvi · May 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

I see more stam Templars using Crescent Sweep than DKs using Take Flight. Take Flight is far too delayed cause of flight time and will be blocked routinely by good players.

That is to say nothing of all the times you simply wont launch because the game cant decide on a path to the guy standing on your face. Or launching and dealling no damage because the opponent walked out of your damage range while you were in the air.

DBOS suffers from none of these deficiencies. There are only two reasons to use Incap over DBOS: cost and debuffs. Otherwise more NBs would join the crowd and adopt DBOS.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

I see more stam Templars using Crescent Sweep than DKs using Take Flight. Take Flight is far too delayed cause of flight time and will be blocked routinely by good players.

That is to say nothing of all the times you simply wont launch because the game cant decide on a path to the guy standing on your face. Or launching and dealling no damage because the opponent walked out of your damage range while you were in the air.

DBOS suffers from none of these deficiencies. There are only two reasons to use Incap over DBOS: cost and debuffs. Otherwise more NBs would join the crowd and adopt DBOS.

I can't remember when I last died to Sweeps. The area is so tiny it mostly fails to connect. Leap has it's issues that are on the devs to fix, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a good and common ultimate. BTW many skills have issues on uneven terrain.

But on the bolded part: you seem to agree that if Incap would be worse than it is, people would chose DB over it. And that's the whole point. Not every class has the luxury of a good stam class ultimate - or of any physical dmg ultimate at all. So the solution can't be to nerf the only viable ult these classes depend on, but to bring other ultis on par with DB. Sweeps needs at least a slightly bigger radius, may as well make leap more reliable on steep terrain. Throw stam sorcs a bone. Dunno about stamdens, they are already in a great place but diversity is always good. Last time I used Lascerate it was purged.

See, I think nobody denies that DB is a really nice ultimate. But if you nerf it, what's left for those who rely on it?

Raudgrani · May 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

I see more stam Templars using Crescent Sweep than DKs using Take Flight. Take Flight is far too delayed cause of flight time and will be blocked routinely by good players.

That is to say nothing of all the times you simply wont launch because the game cant decide on a path to the guy standing on your face. Or launching and dealling no damage because the opponent walked out of your damage range while you were in the air.

DBOS suffers from none of these deficiencies. There are only two reasons to use Incap over DBOS: cost and debuffs. Otherwise more NBs would join the crowd and adopt DBOS.

I can't remember when I last died to Sweeps. The area is so tiny it mostly fails to connect. Leap has it's issues that are on the devs to fix, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a good and common ultimate. BTW many skills have issues on uneven terrain.

But on the bolded part: you seem to agree that if Incap would be worse than it is, people would chose DB over it. And that's the whole point. Not every class has the luxury of a good stam class ultimate - or of any physical dmg ultimate at all. So the solution can't be to nerf the only viable ult these classes depend on, but to bring other ultis on par with DB. Sweeps needs at least a slightly bigger radius, may as well make leap more reliable on steep terrain. Throw stam sorcs a bone. Dunno about stamdens, they are already in a great place but diversity is always good. Last time I used Lascerate it was purged.

See, I think nobody denies that DB is a really nice ultimate. But if you nerf it, what's left for those who rely on it?

The problem is these "meta people", following all these trends. Some months ago they were doing the Eye of Flame thing, now they stack Dawnbreaker. It's boring and repetitive. We learned how to tackle the Eye of Flame thing, now we need to deal with the Dawnbreaker mess. Even sorcs, healers, magicka nightblades join the Dawnbreaker trend. Just to get that juicy effect when a dozen does it simultaneously...

Raudgrani · May 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

A stamden using Sub assault plus dawnbreaker plus steelnado makes me rage.

The zerg fotm will always have this effect, just the way it works. But imo the rage inducing zerg tactics peeked with the destro pain train meta prior to eots nerfs. Honestly I don’t find the warden/DBoS/steel tornado meta to be anywhere near as bad. I will say though, that it feels as if Summerset has the chance to bring some real salt with the Psijic order line and how strong mag builds will be.

I wonder what happened to the destro train meta?

As for my group, we started to ignore them when they ran into towers etc. We spread out when they rushed us, we dropped negates and put up trees and/or sleet storm, and we put Corrupting pollen on them. We really didn't have to do that more than a few days before they decided that they didn't want to get wiped more times. :-)

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

I see more stam Templars using Crescent Sweep than DKs using Take Flight. Take Flight is far too delayed cause of flight time and will be blocked routinely by good players.

That is to say nothing of all the times you simply wont launch because the game cant decide on a path to the guy standing on your face. Or launching and dealling no damage because the opponent walked out of your damage range while you were in the air.

DBOS suffers from none of these deficiencies. There are only two reasons to use Incap over DBOS: cost and debuffs. Otherwise more NBs would join the crowd and adopt DBOS.

I can't remember when I last died to Sweeps. The area is so tiny it mostly fails to connect. Leap has it's issues that are on the devs to fix, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a good and common ultimate. BTW many skills have issues on uneven terrain.

But on the bolded part: you seem to agree that if Incap would be worse than it is, people would chose DB over it. And that's the whole point. Not every class has the luxury of a good stam class ultimate - or of any physical dmg ultimate at all. So the solution can't be to nerf the only viable ult these classes depend on, but to bring other ultis on par with DB. Sweeps needs at least a slightly bigger radius, may as well make leap more reliable on steep terrain. Throw stam sorcs a bone. Dunno about stamdens, they are already in a great place but diversity is always good. Last time I used Lascerate it was purged.

See, I think nobody denies that DB is a really nice ultimate. But if you nerf it, what's left for those who rely on it?

The problem is these "meta people", following all these trends. Some months ago they were doing the Eye of Flame thing, now they stack Dawnbreaker. It's boring and repetitive. We learned how to tackle the Eye of Flame thing, now we need to deal with the Dawnbreaker mess. Even sorcs, healers, magicka nightblades join the Dawnbreaker trend. Just to get that juicy effect when a dozen does it simultaneously...

Indeed. The meta chasing is why something seems "obvious OP bc everyone uses it" or "I died to 23 simultanious ultimates. Please nerf". When Zeni decides to nerf DB into uselessness, the meta/zerg will simply hop to the next best thing. And then the forum outrage repeats. Maybe the ball groups even go full circle and all slot bats.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

I see more stam Templars using Crescent Sweep than DKs using Take Flight. Take Flight is far too delayed cause of flight time and will be blocked routinely by good players.

That is to say nothing of all the times you simply wont launch because the game cant decide on a path to the guy standing on your face. Or launching and dealling no damage because the opponent walked out of your damage range while you were in the air.

DBOS suffers from none of these deficiencies. There are only two reasons to use Incap over DBOS: cost and debuffs. Otherwise more NBs would join the crowd and adopt DBOS.

I can't remember when I last died to Sweeps. The area is so tiny it mostly fails to connect. Leap has it's issues that are on the devs to fix, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a good and common ultimate. BTW many skills have issues on uneven terrain.

But on the bolded part: you seem to agree that if Incap would be worse than it is, people would chose DB over it. And that's the whole point. Not every class has the luxury of a good stam class ultimate - or of any physical dmg ultimate at all. So the solution can't be to nerf the only viable ult these classes depend on, but to bring other ultis on par with DB. Sweeps needs at least a slightly bigger radius, may as well make leap more reliable on steep terrain. Throw stam sorcs a bone. Dunno about stamdens, they are already in a great place but diversity is always good. Last time I used Lascerate it was purged.

See, I think nobody denies that DB is a really nice ultimate. But if you nerf it, what's left for those who rely on it?

The problem is these "meta people", following all these trends. Some months ago they were doing the Eye of Flame thing, now they stack Dawnbreaker. It's boring and repetitive. We learned how to tackle the Eye of Flame thing, now we need to deal with the Dawnbreaker mess. Even sorcs, healers, magicka nightblades join the Dawnbreaker trend. Just to get that juicy effect when a dozen does it simultaneously...

Indeed. The meta chasing is why something seems "obvious OP bc everyone uses it" or "I died to 23 simultanious ultimates. Please nerf". When Zeni decides to nerf DB into uselessness, the meta/zerg will simply hop to the next best thing. And then the forum outrage repeats. Maybe the ball groups even go full circle and all slot bats.

Yes I mean, I've never gone from good health to dead because of a Dawnbreaker. But I've been hit by Meteor for example without realizing it, and ended up very dead. The problem is the sad fact that it's become seen as some kind of "spammable", and it kind of takes much of the fun out of the game. One could just wish more people actually found more dynamic and varying gameplay more appealing. Than just (like now) pull back and stand and cover like little shy boys until ultimate is up, and then rush forth to use one skill, hoping to wipe as many as possible - and then repeat over again.
These days it's becoming less about actually mastering combat, and more about having the bigger zerg and being better at dropping ultimates on command.

Berenhir · May 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

No stam spec is superior to mageblade as raid damage, in a vacuum. As long as vicious death is magika only bomb blade is simply more efficient and effective. Plus it has a larger aoe range making your burst less likely to be mitigated by spreading

@Lexxypwns
I actually disagree. Bomblades are still really important and they do better AOE burst, but in most raids I see, the most raw damage done for the entire session is done by stamina. This is why you are seeing so many groups running stam at this point. You still need bomblades, but you dont need as many.

Total damage done is almost completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is spike damage and as long as you can get 1 VD proc Mageblade has superior spike damage.

Stam warden is more survivable, more mobile, offers superior group buffs, and has a smaller amount of burst that is available more often. The higher availability of said burst allows a raid lead more opportunities to deliver a potentially lethal ulti dump.

However, a stam warden bomb is significantly less damage than a mageblade bomb in the presence of a Vicious Death proc.

This is why I prefaced my statement with”in a vacuum” as there are other considerations than just who has the dankest bombs that goes into raid comp.

I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment of your assessment at all, I’m just pointing out that it’s a matter of things besides just damage that is making stam warden appealing.

The correlation you’re seeing with more stamina raids isn’t because stam warden is a better damage spec, it’s because stam warden can do more than just bomb. A raid that depends solely on mageblade bombs is all about delivering the bomb on target, with stam warden you have more tools available for your group overall while delivering a smaller burst

@Lexxypwns Probably the combination of both is key as the VD proc will also trigger stamden/stamsorcs heemja and the buffed steel tornado will synergize very well with the battered health bars any proxy combo inflicts. It is just a way of further capitalising the bursty bombblade trains with some form of reaper build that has upfront burst on a 3 sec timer and mows down everything that the 8 second proxyburst leaves behind.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

No stam spec is superior to mageblade as raid damage, in a vacuum. As long as vicious death is magika only bomb blade is simply more efficient and effective. Plus it has a larger aoe range making your burst less likely to be mitigated by spreading

@Lexxypwns
I actually disagree. Bomblades are still really important and they do better AOE burst, but in most raids I see, the most raw damage done for the entire session is done by stamina. This is why you are seeing so many groups running stam at this point. You still need bomblades, but you dont need as many.

Total damage done is almost completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is spike damage and as long as you can get 1 VD proc Mageblade has superior spike damage.

Stam warden is more survivable, more mobile, offers superior group buffs, and has a smaller amount of burst that is available more often. The higher availability of said burst allows a raid lead more opportunities to deliver a potentially lethal ulti dump.

However, a stam warden bomb is significantly less damage than a mageblade bomb in the presence of a Vicious Death proc.

This is why I prefaced my statement with”in a vacuum” as there are other considerations than just who has the dankest bombs that goes into raid comp.

I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment of your assessment at all, I’m just pointing out that it’s a matter of things besides just damage that is making stam warden appealing.

The correlation you’re seeing with more stamina raids isn’t because stam warden is a better damage spec, it’s because stam warden can do more than just bomb. A raid that depends solely on mageblade bombs is all about delivering the bomb on target, with stam warden you have more tools available for your group overall while delivering a smaller burst

@Lexxypwns
Like I said, that's why you need both. You use stamina to maintain pressure in zerg v zerg with their more frequently available, yet smaller burst and consistent AOE pressure from S(and the utility/survival doesnt hurt either), and you carefully time your NB/VD bombs for the wipe. I really dont think we are disagreeing here at all. Haha. In any event, the frequency of Spin to Win has gone up noticeably since AOE cap removal. This is my best guess at an explanation.

ShadowMonarch · May 2018

Wait for the insane high damage pvp builds in summerset, You will be wanting a Dawnbreaker nerf unless you're the one dropping them.

schwarzman1 · May 2018

It shouldn’t be invisible (animation cancelled). I’d like to see a ground marker i.e. selenes or some kind of indication one is coming so there is a chance to counter.

WeylandLabs · May 2018

Absolutely agree might as well tell the other players we are about to DB and give him a call.

Anti_Virus · May 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

I agree in DBoS spamm being very potent and annoying. I’d also go as far as saying it’s cause lies in the outperformance of DB over other ultimates. I myself slot this ult on most of my chars. It kind of offers too many effects and passive bonuses to decide against it. Strong initial hit, strong dot, strong stun, unpredictable to some extend, all effecting a group of enemies and on top you get free weapon damage.

Good change would be to have a stunning morph and a damage morph, maybe even decrease overall damage and buff damage against undead so it becomes the hunter skill it is designed for.

Or, you know, make other ultimates attractive? What ultimate should I choose on e.g. a stamplar or a stam sorc? Should I hope people are stupid enough to stand next to my lightning damage dealing, immobilem cc/kill-able atronach? Or should I count on the rare occurance of sweeps actually hitting someone?

At first, ask yourself why you see Incap and Leap used by the respective classes instead of DB. And then ask yourself why other classes revert to "spam" DB instead of their own ultis. Now ask yourself if it's an issue that you die to multiple timed ultimates. And only then go on about nerfing an ultimate that some classes really rely on.

I see more stam Templars using Crescent Sweep than DKs using Take Flight. Take Flight is far too delayed cause of flight time and will be blocked routinely by good players.

That is to say nothing of all the times you simply wont launch because the game cant decide on a path to the guy standing on your face. Or launching and dealling no damage because the opponent walked out of your damage range while you were in the air.

DBOS suffers from none of these deficiencies. There are only two reasons to use Incap over DBOS: cost and debuffs. Otherwise more NBs would join the crowd and adopt DBOS.

I can't remember when I last died to Sweeps. The area is so tiny it mostly fails to connect. Leap has it's issues that are on the devs to fix, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a good and common ultimate. BTW many skills have issues on uneven terrain.

But on the bolded part: you seem to agree that if Incap would be worse than it is, people would chose DB over it. And that's the whole point. Not every class has the luxury of a good stam class ultimate - or of any physical dmg ultimate at all. So the solution can't be to nerf the only viable ult these classes depend on, but to bring other ultis on par with DB. Sweeps needs at least a slightly bigger radius, may as well make leap more reliable on steep terrain. Throw stam sorcs a bone. Dunno about stamdens, they are already in a great place but diversity is always good. Last time I used Lascerate it was purged.

See, I think nobody denies that DB is a really nice ultimate. But if you nerf it, what's left for those who rely on it?

Some good stam ult changes:
Stam Sorc
Summon Storm Atronarch:
I think the other morph of storm Atro (summon charged Atronarch) should be changed to "Summon Air Atronach" and drop an air atro that is stationary and deals ranged wind(physical) damge

Stam Sorc
Overload:
One of the morphs could be changed to charging your fists with Air and shoot wind bolts dealing phyical damage.

gives stam sorc a class based stam ultimate other than dawnbreaker of the two I personally would like to see an Air atro be implemented as it would help with sorc sustained damage

Stam templar
Crescent Sweep:
Base skill and morphs now stuns for 2 secs

Makes skill more relaible to use and stun is helpful for combat

Two handed
Berserkers Strike:
Base and morphs need a cost reduction to about 100 ultimate since its single target Onslaught should passively increase 2h light attack damage by 5% at max

This skill cost is too high for a single target ultimate, cost reduction brings it inline with skills like Incap and Cresant Sweep

Dual wield
Lacerate:
Base and morphs should cost 125 ultimate and should stun all targets hit.

same as 2H ultimate its too high for the damage and since its a dot it can be purged

Bow
Arrow Barrage:
Base and Toxic barrage morphs should cost 100 ultimate to match soul assault in addition it should be dodgeable *note that the ballista morph should remain dodgeable*

The ult cost is way to high for a single target channel skill and since soul assault cost less and hits harder this should bring it more inline with the magicka channeled ultimate

olsborg · May 2018

Basicly...its the best ultimate for general cyrodiil play. Nothing else to say.

Vapirko · May 2018

I swear to god if DBoS gets nerfed... there are no words.