Why did they remove the ability to monitor short term buffs and debuffs?

Wreaken · April 2014

I don't know about the rest of you, but I hate not being able to see buffs and debuffs on me or my target.

Why did they remove this from the API for add-on's and ZOS, do you plan to add this in to your own code so we can monitor it?

The game as it stands revolves around buffs and debuffs that last under 20 seconds, some only last the best part of maybe 3 - 4 seconds. The way our current resources are handled in terms of Magicka and Stamina means we simply cannot just spam skills in the hope these beneficial and non-beneficial skills are getting applied or removed without draining ourselves of resource in a few casts.

I for one would like to either see ZOS implement their own buff & debuff monitoring system in game that allows us to see our buffs and debuffs on ourselves and our current target OR go back to allowing add-on's do it.

dinkleton · April 2014

Couldn't agree more. This should be a staple feature. Keeping debuffs up on our targets is key, need to be able to see when they will drop etc.

cjtignub17_ESO · April 2014

on my laptop FTC still tracks short term buffs. Shows me when I cast annulment how much HP i have left and when its effect ends. Same with lightning form which is only a 6 second buff.

However, for some reason FTC on my desktop doesnt show short term buffs anything < 60 seconds....

Pawkette · April 2014

They removed the functionality because they didn't want you to have it. It's fairly straight forward.

Wreaken · April 2014

Pawkette wrote: »

They removed the functionality because they didn't want you to have it. It's fairly straight forward.

So they should remove it from the character sheet too then?

Spacefiddle · April 2014

Pawkette wrote: »

They removed the functionality because they didn't want you to have it. It's fairly straight forward.

I'm sure that felt clever to say, but it just doesn't hold up to a few seconds of logic. I'm sure they didn't WANT us to have it, but they constructed the game so you NEED it. That's not the players' fault. If they want it to be unimportant, then remove the importance of short-term buffs in combat. That is fairly straightforward. When you say "you don't need it," you are leaving out "to be effective."

There are many players who enjoy being effective as part of their combat experience. Relying on blind luck and RNG and button-mashing does not make a good combat experience for players who enjoy being effective. We have console games for that

.

edit: dear lord my smiley is making animated winks at me. i am both amused and a little creeped out.

Gamerfreak_37x · April 2014

um there is an add on that lets you see players buffs i think its WarLegendHUD

Gamerfreak_37x · April 2014

sorry for your group its WarLegend Group Frame

Elaithe · April 2014

There are no add ons that can directly track them. There are some that have work arounds that guesstimate.

ZoS has decided that giving you that information is an unfair advantage to other players.

They believe, wrongly, that their visual ques are designed well enough that you can accurately keep track of your buffs and debuffs without timers. What they don't say is that these visual ques overwrite each other, often don't work, and many visual ques share the same animations as others.

Spacefiddle · April 2014

Well, if the visual cues (i assume you mean) were fixed and improved, then while it would not be the kind of icon or meter-based tracker many of us are used to, do you think that would work? I don't care how I get the information if Zenthesda has a good idea for it, I just need to get it if they're going to make combat depend on it.

A concern, tho, is if this is really about "advantage over other players," then wouldn't high-end PC users have an extreme advantage over other players? If the cues are all graphic and visual, then someone at lower settings is going to have a harder time seeing them or not seeing them at all.

There will always be a perceived advantage. I have poor eyesight. Someone with better vision will have an advantage over me. It doesn't matter. At some point you have to stop listening to those who incorrectly believe you can make everything perfectly equal, and just go with making available what is needed.

I think clear visual cues would be cooler, personally, if it could be made to work right. More time looking at the center of the screen versus looking at icons is obviously what Zenithesda wants, and pulling it off would be awesome. The problem is not that it isn't a great idea, the problem is, as Elaithe says, it currently is not working.

Pawkette · April 2014

rob.munschub17_ESO wrote: »

Pawkette wrote: »

They removed the functionality because they didn't want you to have it. It's fairly straight forward.

I'm sure that felt clever to say, but it just doesn't hold up to a few seconds of logic. I'm sure they didn't WANT us to have it, but they constructed the game so you NEED it. That's not the players' fault. If they want it to be unimportant, then remove the importance of short-term buffs in combat. That is fairly straightforward. When you say "you don't need it," you are leaving out "to be effective."

There are many players who enjoy being effective as part of their combat experience. Relying on blind luck and RNG and button-mashing does not make a good combat experience for players who enjoy being effective. We have console games for that .

edit: dear lord my smiley is making animated winks at me. i am both amused and a little creeped out.

It was genuinely not an attempt to be clever. Simply a statement about motivations. Zenimax Online does not want you to have that information, in the game they've created. So they removed it. They feel you don't need it presented in the form traditionally associated with effects. That's their decision, they made the game, they're trying to make money off of it, and they have every right to attempt to encourage playing their game how they want.

You may not enjoy that, and thats more than okay. However, if you don't enjoy a movie you don't call up the studio and tell them to change their vision. You just go elsewhere.

cjtignub17_ESO · April 2014

They should really reconsider the short term buff tracking decision. The general consensus from players I know is that they are against not being able to see short term buffs.

Tracking buffs has been a part of MMO gameplay for a decade.

Pawkette · April 2014

@cjtignub17_ESO‌ perhaps an antiquated and uninteresting part that someone has finally decided to do away with

tbenda · April 2014

rob.munschub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure they didn't WANT us to have it, but they constructed the game so you NEED it.

That is of course, assuming that you are only interested in playing a game where not being 100% efficient is both a fatal flaw and an unforgivable sin. Don't forget that before WoW, no MMO had those kinds of stats available, all of them had dozens of short term effects, and people managed to play the game just fine.

If it's vitally important for you to never miss on re-applying a debuff, then do what the bards in EverQuest would do - get really good at counting beats. You don't need numeric tactical data to use your skills correctly - you want it because it's easier and you're comfortable with it. Know that you can become comfortable without it as well. Also, the game's a lot more fun if you learn to relax and realize there's such a thing as "good enough."

odinwise · April 2014

tbenda wrote: »

rob.munschub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure they didn't WANT us to have it, but they constructed the game so you NEED it.

That is of course, assuming that you are only interested in playing a game where not being 100% efficient is both a fatal flaw and an unforgivable sin. Don't forget that before WoW, no MMO had those kinds of stats available, all of them had dozens of short term effects, and people managed to play the game just fine.

If it's vitally important for you to never miss on re-applying a debuff, then do what the bards in EverQuest would do - get really good at counting beats. You don't need numeric tactical data to use your skills correctly - you want it because it's easier and you're comfortable with it. Know that you can become comfortable without it as well. Also, the game's a lot more fun if you learn to relax and realize there's such a thing as "good enough."

I completely agree with this. Back in the day you literally had to rely on visual cues and counting beats in your head to "play effectively." Honestly, when I see people desiring that kind of gameplay as if it's detrimental to their happiness and the games viability, I wonder what's happened to the RPG factor of MMOs. The fact that they removed this from the game, (and I'll add from another post I've seen with people complaining about the "over the shoulder" third person view), says to me they are interested in making a game that isn't entirely focused on number crunching and a little more involving with the world instead of, as previously mentioned, watching counters and icons. Personally, I'm happy about that.

Remember when there were no maps or quest journals? All navigation was done by visual memory and following roads, making your own maps and keeping notes. It was part of the experience. Of course, this isn't the same thing, but it reminds me of a time when we didn't rely on the game "counting" for us, so that we simply become reactive, button-pressing, timing machines. It also leaves room for mistake and random chance...which, let's be honest, make for the best stories.

Zackizle · April 2014

tbenda wrote: »

rob.munschub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm sure they didn't WANT us to have it, but they constructed the game so you NEED it.

That is of course, assuming that you are only interested in playing a game where not being 100% efficient is both a fatal flaw and an unforgivable sin. Don't forget that before WoW, no MMO had those kinds of stats available, all of them had dozens of short term effects, and people managed to play the game just fine.

If it's vitally important for you to never miss on re-applying a debuff, then do what the bards in EverQuest would do - get really good at counting beats. You don't need numeric tactical data to use your skills correctly - you want it because it's easier and you're comfortable with it. Know that you can become comfortable without it as well. Also, the game's a lot more fun if you learn to relax and realize there's such a thing as "good enough."

You're wrong. SWG had buff/debuff monitoring. Was before WoW.

The fact that anyone thinks there shouldn't be some sort of Buff/Debuff monitoring or enemy resource monitoring blows my mind.

They advertise about the viability of PvP, the competitiveness, yet they limit you extremely. They say *** like "unfair advantage" but that is simply false. Visual cues are an unfair advantage. The fact the the devs, and some of the mindless followers think otherwise blows my mind.

I don't need to explain, its very obvious how.

Good day.

Spacefiddle · April 2014

Without being quite as harsh as the above, that's just it. You can't pretend to be both casual and competitive. And all arguments against it about "good enough" and "back in my day..."

Back in my day, everyone knew people's phone numbers. Do you still have dozens of phone numbers memorized? Is your life diminished and your brain power reduced because they're stored in your phone? Of course not. You do other things with your brain besides memorize arbitrary number strings.

You like counting beats? Great! Do so. Enjoy. It doesn't make you a more valid player in any way. I don't want to spend combat counting measures. It's really no less an external system than any indicator.

It comes down to a subgroup determining that their play style and preference is "correct," and that everyone should be forced to conform to it. Whereas my position is people should have the option to modify their play style to their own preference, including yours. You want to dictate my play style and tell me I "should" be happy with how you want me to play, like it's some superior moral choice.

Proof: you tell me to "relax," or that the "game is more fun." Who are you to tell me what I find relaxing or fun? YOU find it relaxing. YOU find the game to be more fun, and so do some others. Great! Enjoy! I don't, and yours is, again, not some objectively "correct" definition of what fun is for everyone.

Edit again: i'd love to see stats on how exponentially forum posting goes up when the servers are unexpectedly down xD

tbenda · April 2014

Zackizleb14_ESO wrote: »

They advertise about the viability of PvP, the competitiveness, yet they limit you extremely.
...snip...
The fact the the devs, and some of the mindless followers think otherwise blows my mind.

I don't believe disagreeing with your understanding of what is "necessary" makes me a "mindless follower." I happen to have operated at a very high competitive level in RvR in DAoC, PvP in Ultima Online and PvE in EQ, Guild Wars, WoW before it had 10 thousand addons which did your thinking for you, and mountains of single player games just fine without having detailed information about timers, buffs and debuffs.

Why anyone would believe you need to know the internals of the enemy AI to be able to kill an enemy is beyond me, and sounds more like posturing and tantrum-throwing than a practical argument. What specifically can you not accomplish without this information?

Applying buffs to group members? You can do that without knowing whether they already have it.
Applying debuffs to enemies? You can do that without knowing whether they already have it.
Removing negative effects from yourself? You can tell your health is going down or your movement speed is limited or your armor is debuffed from the existing UI.

The only thing I can come up with that you can't do is know (programmatically) whether a short term buff on yourself which was cast by someone else has worn off and you need to beg them to re-apply it. Seems likely that if they're playing the game right, they will re-apply it without your "valuable feedback," and if they're not, you can gently correct their deficiency later after your group was wiped by your raid encounter.

Or, you know, you could learn to live without foreign buffs.

tbenda · April 2014

Spacefiddle wrote: »

It comes down to a subgroup determining that their play style and preference is "correct," and that everyone should be forced to conform to it.

At present the subgroup determining that their play style and preference is "correct" is the subgroup called the "ESO Developers."

I'm simply arguing that we're all fully capable of playing without that data, and nobody needs to march around in a dramatic huff claiming that the game is impossible to play without robots playing it for them.

Also, "competitive" has never equaled "perfect." If it was, no professional athlete would have a job.

Spacefiddle · April 2014

Your posts consist of hyperbole and the continued attempts to tie your position to being objectively correct by invoking the devs as being on your side. You are not addressing any actual point, and deliberately (or maybe not, you should probably go back and read again) choosing to toss out insults like "dramatic huff" and "impossible to play without robots." Nothing of the sort is occurring or being claimed, but that doesn't seem to get in the way of your grandstanding.

Present your viewpoint on its own merits or logic, rather than claiming to speak for all the devs. Maybe then your posts will have some weight.

Further: if the Devs Themselves, Praise Be Unto Them, want to narrowly constrain everyone's play style, it's still wrong. They're just people, you realize, and historically, that sort of thing doesn't succeed well in other games. It's also inconsistent, as I have already demonstrated above which you didn't read, and it further goes against reasonable expectations of coming into a game based on one of the most heavily moddable player experiences in gaming history. That is part of the logical argument. I hope it's clear to you now.

Jaburra · April 2014

Zackizleb14_ESO wrote: »

You're wrong. SWG had buff/debuff monitoring. Was before WoW.

The fact that anyone thinks there shouldn't be some sort of Buff/Debuff monitoring or enemy resource monitoring blows my mind.

They advertise about the viability of PvP, the competitiveness, yet they limit you extremely. They say *** like "unfair advantage" but that is simply false. Visual cues are an unfair advantage. The fact the the devs, and some of the mindless followers think otherwise blows my mind.

I don't need to explain, its very obvious how.

Good day.

First off if you're going to use another game as an example, how about giving an example that wasn't released a few months before WoW. What the previous person was stating is that the original MMO's (ie: EQ, UO etc) did not have any addons, and required you to LEARN YOUR TOON. Now I'm not saying that I'm against add-ons. In my gaming experience I have used them before, and enjoyed quite a few of them. However, I also love to experience the actual game without having to focus my eyesight in one location the entire time I'm playing. But that's a personal preference. Just like everything else being said on this post.

Bottom line is this guys - Zenimax has a vision for THEIR game. If you don't like their vision, go to another game. Sitting on the forums and complaining about how this game doesn't come equipped with millions of add-ons to do all the work for you like WoW is absurd and honestly childish. If you want it changed, here's a suggestion for you: Raise some money, go buy out Zenimax and all the rights to this game, and then design it how you want it. Don't want to do that? Then please stop complaining. Zeni has made their decision, and I for one applaud them.

Edit: And just to further back up the timeline of the game you used as an example, SWG was released November 29th of 2000, and WoW was released September of 2001. Not a very big time jump there.

tbenda · April 2014

Spacefiddle wrote: »

Your posts consist of hyperbole and the continued attempts to tie your position to being objectively correct by invoking the devs as being on your side. You are not addressing any actual point, and deliberately (or maybe not, you should probably go back and read again) choosing to toss out insults like "dramatic huff" and "impossible to play without robots." Nothing of the sort is occurring or being claimed, but that doesn't seem to get in the way of your grandstanding.

Present your viewpoint on its own merits or logic, rather than claiming to speak for all the devs. Maybe then your posts will have some weight.

I know it's wrong to bait a troll, so I won't respond to your personal attacks here and will simply ask "where was your logical demonstration in your previous post?"

Did you intend to actually provide a persuasive argument supported by information, but it was omitted by mistake?

My point was (the last 3 times) and continues to be that the devs removed this because it conflicts with their design philosophy. Whether you or I disagree with their design philosophy is immaterial, because they have done it anyway. They may reverse that decision later.

I'd like to be able to see short-term effects on myself, but I don't feel limited by the fact that I can't... I'll simply have to deal with them as "hey y'all, that don't feel right" and dispel appropriately.

I actually support combat data logging, because though it feeds minmaxers who will use their stats as prestige to bludgeon more casual players, it also exposes critical defects in the designs put forth by the devs, as has been amply demonstrated in previous games. If you can prove an effect or a boss is bugged and back it up with data, you can get it fixed by the devs.

Without the API data logging features, this is no longer readily accomplished without some really complex multi-log integration and some clever math on the part of the UI modders, since a lot of information will be inaccessible to them.

In the meantime, it is trivial to establish that the game is still possible to play without that information in the APIs. The core argument presented by you and the other individual below appears to be that without this data it is impossible to play at a high level of play against raid-scale endgame content or other players in a "competitive" fashion, without explaining specifically what stops you from competing in the arena of skill. This is obviously untrue for the following reason:

You will be lacking the same information without these API methods as your opponents. If the PvE AI is not lacking that information, you can take comfort in the fact that their AI is almost certainly not smart enough to take advantage of your informational deficit. This puts balance entirely in the court of the developers.

If the game doesn't give you a data-dense UI with numbers and timers, then it's not a "play style" to play the game using a data-dense UI with numbers and timers. It's a mod.

Not that there's anything wrong with playing the game staring entirely at the combat log or using a UI mod which tells you when your buffs are wearing off, or if group member C is underperforming on DPS or any of the various other kinds of information you can extract from the API (up to and including the bots which will automatically interrupt enemy skills/spells, etc.).

It's just not the game the devs have released. Ask them to change it, sure, just don't pretend that it's impossible to play competitively or intelligently without knowing the math. It's frankly insulting to those of us who do perform competitively without those sorts of "aid" mods, and can do so without getting worked up about it.

You can play fantasy football without knowing the exact daily caloric intake, medical history and current average heart rate of your favorite player too. For that matter, you can play actual football without having that information about the opposing quarterback.

Edit:
If you really find stressful activity more fun than being relaxed, then I'd think having no data about combat at all would be more fun for you... It's certainly panic inducing when you're low on the blue stuff and the whole group needs healing.

Edit2: I would bet the post count goes up logarithmically with the duration of server outage.

TheRedMage · April 2014

Elaithe wrote: »

There are no add ons that can directly track them. There are some that have work arounds that guesstimate.

ZoS has decided that giving you that information is an unfair advantage to other players.

They believe, wrongly, that their visual ques are designed well enough that you can accurately keep track of your buffs and debuffs without timers. What they don't say is that these visual ques overwrite each other, often don't work, and many visual ques share the same animations as others.

Agree'd, I often don't notice my shard procs because it doesn't stand out in lightning form

Pawkette · April 2014

I just want to understand why you'd come to a new game, and expect to play it like whatever you were playing before? Why not just keep playing what you were playing? I don't comprehend this behavior.

claudekennilol · April 2014

Jaburra wrote: »

Edit: And just to further back up the timeline of the game you used as an example, SWG was released November 29th of 2000, and WoW was released September of 2001. Not a very big time jump there.

It doesn't have to be a big time jump to be true. He simply stated that "swg was released before wow." Even if SWG released Aug. 31st, 2001, then his statement is still entirely accurate and still wouldn't even be a point of debate.

Kriptt · April 2014

Seems that most of people agree. What I understand is, for a minority of players that don't have fun being efficient in a RPG game, they removed the rendering option of the short duration buff.

ESO is my first playing as an healer (we just switched roles for no reason). I like how every characters can fight by their own (dodge, block and interrupt). But being a healer also means responsibility and not having the tools that I would like as an option is something that just feel weird. I do think that visual elements is an unfair advantage, like a skin add-on, but in that case it is double edged. Because you can see when you are effected it gives you the same edge as being able to precisely push a button in order to have a feeling of consistency. Not having such render option, only means that you will simply be less accurate, it will only takes more gameplay experience before "you know" and feels how long is 8 sec. You still can play with a clock.

Its hard to explain the bad versus the good since both of them have good fun associate to it, but in a MMO I would like to be able to time things.

dawnrise · April 2014

In my past mmo experience I've relied heavily on addons for the crunching of all sorts of numbers, be it combat or economy related. That being said I find it incredibly disenchanting. Not because it forces me to approach the game with maximum "efficiency" in mind (I actually love calculating my in-game actions), but because it pulls the gameplay further and further away from what I think (and others may disagree) the point of all this is.

I'm playing this game to remove myself from our overrationalized real-world, where I can't just fight monsters and people at my every whim. I'm playing to simulate what combat in this imaginary world might really be like. Real fights don't allow one to know when enemies are about to attack, or the duration of the buffs or performance enhancing drugs they may have used. I want to rely on visual cues, instinct, and my intellectual ability to estimate enemy attacks or buff durations. This is just my personal view though.

That all being said, the ESO combat system hasn't so far showed me that proper interpretation of visual cues and intellect are enough to reveal differences in player aptitude. And with five (to ten) total usable abilities, combat still seems limited in scope.

In summary: I dunno what's best

claudekennilol · April 2014

dawnrise wrote: »

Real fights don't allow one to know when enemies are about to attack, or the duration of the buffs or performance enhancing drugs they may have used.

Right, but in real life if you throw a drug at someone where you already know how long it's going to effect them then you already have this information available. We just want some way to track it rather than having to think about it.

Jaburra · April 2014

claudekennilol wrote: »

Zackizleb14_ESO wrote: »

Edit: And just to further back up the timeline of the game you used as an example, SWG was released November 29th of 2000, and WoW was released September of 2001. Not a very big time jump there.

It doesn't have to be a big time jump to be true. He simply stated that "swg was released before wow." Even if SWG released Aug. 31st, 2001, then his statement is still entirely accurate and still wouldn't even be a point of debate.

Actually it is a point of debate. The reason being is because the two games were released rather close together. I took the argument as saying "get over the fact that there are add-ons because they have always been around." Which in fact that is NOT true. EQ and UO were around a lot longer, before SWG or WoW were a twinkle in their creator's eye. And players during those games were able to play just fine with no additional support via add-ons. Add-ons were a luxury that was brought into the MMO scene, and honestly, as we've seen with WoW, they turn even the most proper player into a childish epeen addict (note: just wanted to clarify that it didn't do this to ALL players, just some. Not referring to the entire population)

I can understand the fact that people want to track their progress during combat, and I don't have a problem with that. But this whole forum post is null anyways, because none of us are the devs. They have decided to do something, and as the players, we either have to abide by it and continue playing, or just leave the game all together.

With all this being said, there's a saying that my other half always says when talking about combat add-ons: "Why do you need a combat tracker? Are the mobs dieing? Then you're doing your job." I guess the players in this game will have to settle with "good enough".

claudekennilol · April 2014

No, his point was that you claimed WoW was the first when it wasn't. Then he proceeded to make other points which are related. You can't argue that WoW was the first when it wasn't.

tbenda · April 2014

TheRedMage wrote: »

Elaithe wrote: »

They believe, wrongly, that their visual ques are designed well enough that you can accurately keep track of your buffs and debuffs without timers. What they don't say is that these visual ques overwrite each other, often don't work, and many visual ques share the same animations as others.

Agree'd, I often don't notice my shard procs because it doesn't stand out in lightning form

It'd be nice if these visual effects were more pronounced, in particular for rare or short-lived effects, since we're now expected to read the visual cues. The rare events (procs) and short-lived events (short-lived but potent debuffs or dots) are the most important pieces of information in a combat situation, far more important than the long-term buffs/debuffs, which you'd notice before they caused any significant hindrance anyway.