BGs and unavoidable damage

Feanor · May 2018

With the recent addition of powerful proc sets and changes to skills that allow for unavoidable burst I have been thinking. Why? Why such an obviously wrong decision from a balance standpoint?

I now think it fits very well with ZOS way of design - they want the game to be much easier for new players, and unavoidable damage is a part of that. The power gap between experienced players and new players gets much smaller.

Battlegrounds are going base game. They want the new participants to feel good about themselves in there. In that regard, it’s a consequent way of ensuring it. Just not one that’s good for the game overall.

Also the new queuing system is supposed to help new players. I really think all of this (damage increase on light attacks, powerful proc sets, unavoidable damage) is happening to make it much easier for new players.

Beardimus · May 2018

I think this is a really great point. Makes alot of sense of things.

I always feel I just wish i knew what they were thinking. In part it would help me accept the weird changes that can happen to a class if i at least knew they had a planned direction.

Right now we get left thinking.....HUH? With alot of the changes and endless debate ensures that really doesn't go anywhere as if they have a direction / justification they will stick to it.

Tell us ZOS speak to us about why you do the stuff you do!!

BNOC · May 2018

It's always to cater for the new and lesser-skilled players.

Have you ever fought against someone who was used to all of their damage being gifted to them, when they didn't have that option anymore? It's embarrassing.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime - See where I'm going with this.

CO_Gibbs · May 2018

The only set that really bothers me is Zaan, mostly because it goes through solid objects. Hopefully that's addressed in a patch soon.

LokoMatic · May 2018

These are all great points. It is a damn shame though that in its current state, it isn't nearly as bad as when the viper / veildreth was worn by every single stam class. While there is a steep learning curve to BG's, they are making the appropriate steps by adding just Deathmatch, and adding que's for group players of similar caliber. Right now I can imagine how horrible it must be for a newbie to waltz in there and go 0-15.

Thogard · May 2018

proc sets are training wheels, it's true.

But skill is such a steep learning curve in this game that I'm honestly OK with it.

I once ran tremor/viper.... there. i admitted it.

But seriously without that i probably would've quit PvP because I wouldn't have been able to compete.

Now i don't wear proc sets because they just aren't flexible.

TwistedThoughtz · May 2018

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

wheem_ESO · May 2018

TwistedThoughtz wrote: »

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

Caluurion and Skoria. Winterborn can be somewhat OK on a Magicka Warden that builds for a lot of frost based AOE damage, but that sort of setup has other problems that really limit its usefulness, and will become worse next patch. The upcoming Oblivion-DOT set might end up being ridiculous, but I'm not sure yet.

Zaan and Caluurion are the most obnoxious sets at the moment, but it's still not as dumb as Viper + monster proc set + Red Mountain used to be.

ShadowMonarch · May 2018

TwistedThoughtz wrote: »

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

Caluurion's Legacy my friend!

People complain about zaan but TBH I run them both for my current BG's gank setup and Caluurions is wayyy more deadly for a magblade to use at least.

It procs from a crit, which if I cloak and open with a concealed weapon it is a guaranteed crit, then the stun gives me enough time to get incap or assassins will off. It makes for a deadly combo. Some of the squishier glass cannon builds literally get 1 shot! I had a guy send me a tell a few weeks ago asking what I was running on my stamblade, he didn't even know I was playing magika, said he died so fast he never actually saw me appear on his screen he just fell down dead.

Caluurion's is a proc that I can guarantee when I want it to go off and I think the tooltip for it on my armor is like 16k damage. I don't know why people complain about zaan when caluurions is still around, caluurions is so much more deadly with the high burst damage and less cooldown time. I have hit people then walked away and caluurions has killed them for me with a big chunk of random damage.

With zaan I see a lot of players that when it connects to them they make 0 attempt to try to get out of its damage or they don't even block or heal themselves they just keep spamming attacks and then they die and those are almost always the ones who
send rage tells about it, There is a surprising number of good players that the second zaan connects to them they get the hell outta there and then they waste a 20second proc from you and they come right back in to finish you off. With caluurions though I can guarantee that I will proc it when your stunned so there will be no getting out majority of times what so ever.

All in all if you pair the two together you have a burst damage proc and a sustained damage proc which can take down a good majority of the players. The zaan only really comes in handy against the super tanky "me dumb me smash buttons" type of players, but the calruuions is like a small predator missile that can fire off at will or at any time for a chunk of damage.

Solariken · May 2018

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

TwistedThoughtz wrote: »

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

Caluurion's Legacy my friend!

People complain about zaan but TBH I run them both for my current BG's gank setup and Caluurions is wayyy more deadly for a magblade to use at least.

It procs from a crit, which if I cloak and open with a concealed weapon it is a guaranteed crit, then the stun gives me enough time to get incap or assassins will off. It makes for a deadly combo. Some of the squishier glass cannon builds literally get 1 shot! I had a guy send me a tell a few weeks ago asking what I was running on my stamblade, he didn't even know I was playing magika, said he died so fast he never actually saw me appear on his screen he just fell down dead.

Caluurion's is a proc that I can guarantee when I want it to go off and I think the tooltip for it on my armor is like 16k damage. I don't know why people complain about zaan when caluurions is still around, caluurions is so much more deadly with the high burst damage and less cooldown time. I have hit people then walked away and caluurions has killed them for me with a big chunk of random damage.

With zaan I see a lot of players that when it connects to them they make 0 attempt to try to get out of its damage or they don't even block or heal themselves they just keep spamming attacks and then they die and those are almost always the ones who
send rage tells about it, There is a surprising number of good players that the second zaan connects to them they get the hell outta there and then they waste a 20second proc from you and they come right back in to finish you off. With caluurions though I can guarantee that I will proc it when your stunned so there will be no getting out majority of times what so ever.

All in all if you pair the two together you have a burst damage proc and a sustained damage proc which can take down a good majority of the players. The zaan only really comes in handy against the super tanky "me dumb me smash buttons" type of players, but the calruuions is like a small predator missile that can fire off at will or at any time for a chunk of damage.

People parrot this line about just moving out of it, but that is actually incredibly difficult when the zaan user has even half a brain or can easily root/snare/cc spam you. It's not even purgeable or LOS-able. It's just stupid.

Proc sets can be fun, but IMO there is no justification for giving armor sets a truckload of free, passive, instant damage. Zaan is a prime example of garbage design - this thing can easily do 5-10 times the damage of a player's actual abilities within just a few seconds. 12-15k total damage regularly. Caluurion's, Skoria, and Selene are egregious offenders as well.

wheem_ESO · May 2018

Taking 3,759 from a Concealed Weapon, followed by 6,027 from Caluurion's Legacy proc, and 6,932 from 2 ticks of Zaan (while not being a Vampire) is totally balanced, I dunno what you're talking about. A single player's gear should absolutely be able to do like 2 Dawnbreakers worth of damage, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to L2P. Totally serious bros.

BNOC · May 2018

Solariken wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

TwistedThoughtz wrote: »

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

Caluurion's Legacy my friend!

...

People parrot this line about just moving out of it, but that is actually incredibly difficult when the zaan user has even half a brain or can easily root/snare/cc spam you. It's not even purgeable or LOS-able. It's just stupid.

Proc sets can be fun, but IMO there is no justification for giving armor sets a truckload of free, passive, instant damage. Zaan is a prime example of garbage design - this thing can easily do 5-10 times the damage of a player's actual abilities within just a few seconds. 12-15k total damage regularly. Caluurion's, Skoria, and Selene are egregious offenders as well.

You can cleanse Zaan as a Templar, not sure if purge works any differently.
+1 Should be LoS-able as well.

Kova · May 2018

BNOC wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

TwistedThoughtz wrote: »

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

Caluurion's Legacy my friend!

...

People parrot this line about just moving out of it, but that is actually incredibly difficult when the zaan user has even half a brain or can easily root/snare/cc spam you. It's not even purgeable or LOS-able. It's just stupid.

Proc sets can be fun, but IMO there is no justification for giving armor sets a truckload of free, passive, instant damage. Zaan is a prime example of garbage design - this thing can easily do 5-10 times the damage of a player's actual abilities within just a few seconds. 12-15k total damage regularly. Caluurion's, Skoria, and Selene are egregious offenders as well.

You can cleanse Zaan as a Templar, not sure if purge works any differently.
+1 Should be LoS-able as well.

Yeah, it should be. It's mostly not...but it should be.

Mihael · May 2018

Solariken wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

TwistedThoughtz wrote: »

Besides zaan, what other “powerful proc sets” are there?

Caluurion's Legacy my friend!

People complain about zaan but TBH I run them both for my current BG's gank setup and Caluurions is wayyy more deadly for a magblade to use at least.

It procs from a crit, which if I cloak and open with a concealed weapon it is a guaranteed crit, then the stun gives me enough time to get incap or assassins will off. It makes for a deadly combo. Some of the squishier glass cannon builds literally get 1 shot! I had a guy send me a tell a few weeks ago asking what I was running on my stamblade, he didn't even know I was playing magika, said he died so fast he never actually saw me appear on his screen he just fell down dead.

Caluurion's is a proc that I can guarantee when I want it to go off and I think the tooltip for it on my armor is like 16k damage. I don't know why people complain about zaan when caluurions is still around, caluurions is so much more deadly with the high burst damage and less cooldown time. I have hit people then walked away and caluurions has killed them for me with a big chunk of random damage.

With zaan I see a lot of players that when it connects to them they make 0 attempt to try to get out of its damage or they don't even block or heal themselves they just keep spamming attacks and then they die and those are almost always the ones who
send rage tells about it, There is a surprising number of good players that the second zaan connects to them they get the hell outta there and then they waste a 20second proc from you and they come right back in to finish you off. With caluurions though I can guarantee that I will proc it when your stunned so there will be no getting out majority of times what so ever.

All in all if you pair the two together you have a burst damage proc and a sustained damage proc which can take down a good majority of the players. The zaan only really comes in handy against the super tanky "me dumb me smash buttons" type of players, but the calruuions is like a small predator missile that can fire off at will or at any time for a chunk of damage.

People parrot this line about just moving out of it, but that is actually incredibly difficult when the zaan user has even half a brain or can easily root/snare/cc spam you. It's not even purgeable or LOS-able. It's just stupid.

Proc sets can be fun, but IMO there is no justification for giving armor sets a truckload of free, passive, instant damage. Zaan is a prime example of garbage design - this thing can easily do 5-10 times the damage of a player's actual abilities within just a few seconds. 12-15k total damage regularly. Caluurion's, Skoria, and Selene are egregious offenders as well.

I completely agree even fighting a bad player by the time you move out of zaans range you have already taken about 10k damage. And it’s not even easy to cleanse it on a magplar because of so many debuff you have during battle I have to spam purify like 3 times just to cleanse it.

Aznox · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

With the recent addition of powerful proc sets and changes to skills that allow for unavoidable burst I have been thinking. Why? Why such an obviously wrong decision from a balance standpoint?

I now think it fits very well with ZOS way of design - they want the game to be much easier for new players, and unavoidable damage is a part of that. The power gap between experienced players and new players gets much smaller.

I agree that proc sets do favor less experienced players because they get roughly the same output than an experienced players from it. (or at least the gap cannot be compared to the gap in gearing and rotation efficiency).

I disagree with all the rest.

The power gap between experienced players and new players gets much smaller slightly less huge.

It's all about finding the right balance of numbers for these proc sets.

Right now i'd say proc sets range from very powerful(meta) to fine in no-CP and from fine to bad in CP-enabled.

How can we balance that any better ? Not much can be done apart from tuning the few outliers (Zaan LoS, etc..)

Have you tried switching from Sotha Sil to Vivec or Shor recently ? Maybe the CP meta would fit you more ? (although it has other problems)

Or are you afraid to go in a pond with more big fishes like yourself ? ( not a taunt since i'm playing on Sotha myself

)

Battlegrounds are going base game. They want the new participants to feel good about themselves in there. In that regard, it’s a consequent way of ensuring it. Just not one that’s good for the game overall.

Also the new queuing system is supposed to help new players. I really think all of this (damage increase on light attacks, powerful proc sets, unavoidable damage) is happening to make it much easier for new players.

New players (CP <400) will continue to get absolutely crushed even in no-CP battleground, proc set or not.

Anethum · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Also the new queuing system is supposed to help new players. I really think all of this (damage increase on light attacks, powerful proc sets, unavoidable damage) is happening to make it much easier for new players.

maybe the goal is to make eso easier to new players, but real profit from procshit get experienced players, which use them in no-cp.
same as from freaking cost poisons. 1 year of complaining, and still 30% cost increase there...
poor design, toxic overall impact.
@ZOS_Wrobel the reason why u have so many haters is your (or who do them and not stopped by you) critical mistakes in fight system, which do not resolve for a very long period of time (key is very long period). IN summer u at least changed old procsets to be at least somehow counterable (after more than year of total garbage in pvp because of them). Why callurion added? Any lesson from old exp?

P.S: Investigate and fIx crap things fast (at least like on pts), and everything will be good.

Thogard · May 2018

Resource poisons used to be 60% though.