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So, Death and... Well, just Death really...

Duffdin
Duffdin
I tend to think death is a big deal. And having already crossed significantly over the half-century mark, it seems like an even bigger deal -- though, perhaps oddly, it concerns me less...

I tend to think the same about games in which I play a character -- typically myself (somewhat idealized) in whatever environment, no matter how fanciful, and not some largely scripted character whether concocted by the game developers or by other overly dramatic players. However, most games, MMO or single-player, tend to treat death little different from the arcade games of the 1980s -- though without the limits to three, five, or some augmented number before being forced to start over from the beginning.

In that regard, a majority of RPG or MMORPG games play like -- and are played by a large proportion of the player base, especially if PvP is supported -- like the arcade game, Gauntlet, a "dungeon crawler" for one to four players who could rampage through hoards of skeletons, ghosts, whatever as a warrior, wizard, valkyrie, or elf -- think something like fighter, mage, tank, thief where "thief" means faster than the other characters and often used to "steal" food and treasure from the other players by getting to it first. Great fun, but still an arcade game. Meaning, the player in no way identifies with the character being driven around the screen -- i.e. not "role-playing," scripted or otherwise.

However, games like those in the Elder Scrolls or Fallout series provide the opportunity to play yourself or some kind of alter-ego in a parallel universe with different history and, often, very different physics. (Well, for the most part. Bethesda Softworks still over-scripts the player character for my taste. It really isn't necessary to push the player into a main quest line -- or worse, saddle them with a fictional family as another means of driving player motivation. Various "alternate start" mods have been popular for good reasons.) But if I "live," in some sense, in an alternate reality, then my death should also make some kind of sense.

Years ago, playing Shadowbane -- a very good PvP MMO game in its day -- death led to graves other players could rob while players were whipped back to a respawn point to be reconstituted. Since that game had very little lore, quests, or any other RPG elements, it was possible to think of the world as some kind of hell in which player characters were doomed to fight and die for eternity -- an "eternity" which ended when the last free-to-play severs shut down. Now, Shadowbane's world was not nearly as "rich" as the world provided in The Elder Scrolls Online, but it did provide a great environment for PvP, including the construction and siege of castles -- trebuchets for the win!

However, The Elder Scrolls Online does not drop the player into hell -- not an intentional hell in any case. There is a rich world with one of the most developed histories and lore of any alternate reality ever conceived thanks to the larger Elder Scrolls franchise of which it is a part. As such, death should be "explained" by something which "fits" and is more "sophisticated," in some sense, than the Gauntlet arcade game.

Beginning as a soul-shriven "vestige" seems like a promising start. After all, having already "died" once before, death certainly is not permanent. (Eve Online does something similar with its clones -- which I considered heirs I could play when the current patriarch died rather than an endless respawning of the "same" character over and over. Still, the first death could be "troubling" until reading the Eve Online lore which explains that every capsuleer begins their career by "jumping" into their first space-based clone. Well, if you die to begin your new life, what's another death. Though, no matter what every clone activated with the memories and property of the preceding generation may feel, his or her predecessor could very easily be expected to develop a new sense of mortality as death came crashing into their final moments.) However, the vestige dies...and then just pops up at a wayshrine...fully clothed and carrying all the stuff he or she was hauling around at the moment of their demise. Hmm... Not really very satisfying. Being soul-shriven and, at least, once dead already...I just...teleported?

Granted, there really isn't a significant game mechanic that needs to be "fixed." I also get that many players -- and probably most of the self-identified "hard-core" PvPers -- would be enraged if they lost the stuff they were carrying when they die and no ally is available to either raise them from the dead or recover their stuff to return it. Still, that seems like a minimal "death penalty" that should be imposed while a better story for why the soul-shriven are reconstituted at a respawn point would be appreciated. Now, at veteran ranks, equipment may be far more "dear" and painful to lose -- assuming no ally or your own ability to return to recover your own dropped loot. But so far, before rising to such exalted levels, none of the equipment acquired seems so irreplaceable that it cannot, in fact, be replaced.

Yeah, too long...a daunting wall of words...probably signifying nothing...

The short version, it would be nice if the soul-shriven vestige had a better explanation for why he or she are doomed to a never-ending cycle of death and rebirth. That, and they really should not be able to take their stuff with them -- and consider the benefit that would convey to the PvP participants who should see looting those they kill as just compensation for losing their own stuff to others when bested on the field of battle.
  • Duffdin
    Duffdin
    So, it seems the initial release of The Elder Scrolls Online did address the infinitely -- or nearly so -- recyclable vestige:

    Chaotic Creatia: The Azure Plasm by Doctor Rhythandius
    On Soul Shriven by Mannimarco

    In summary, being soul shriven to become a vestige, the vestige now reconstitutes itself upon death in much the same way as Daedra are dispatched back to Oblivion upon death in Nirn only to be reformed from chaotic creatia -- seen as "Azure Plasm" in Coldharbour -- in the fullness of time.

    But of course, that doesn't really work when starting new characters since the release of the Morrowind Chapter.

    The trouble is that characters begun in Morrowind are not vestiges. They are people -- "beastfolk" included for the sake of inclusivity -- with all the mortality that implies, not vestiges. (Please ignore eternally respawning NPCs for the purposes of this discussion...) So, when the mortal dies without starting the original main quest, death should be permanent. Or...the first time a character dies, it should awaken to find itself a prisoner in Coldharbour and remade as a vestige. (I recently had a new character die at a dolmen thanks to fumble fingered gameplay. Being hypothetically snatched into Coldharbour through the available portal still open long after I fell with no other players around at the inglorious moment seemed like an excellent opportunity for soul shriving as long some denizen of Coldharbour were quick about it... Perhaps, other "first deaths" could be vestige making opportunities by assuming worm cultists happened upon a nearly lifeless body in time for a serendipitous harvesting.)

    So, a "solution" and a more seamless way to begin the main quest than to search out the patiently waiting worm cultist in each alliance's first city following the old "starter" islands.

    But...

    Having just traveled from my character's death at a dolmen to seek out the Coldharbour ticket master (assuming the trip and transition images were just some weird dreamscape traversed on the path to vestigehood), I was more than a bit surprised to find myself imprisoned fully equipped and burdened with everything I possessed when I fell. A damned convenient oversight on the part of Molag Bal's minions. I get that losing stuff on death may well trigger rage-quitting, but perhaps something like stripping characters down to their prison skivvies, but letting them find a chest full of their stuff before completing their escape might be a better choice.
  • Thannazzar
    Thannazzar
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    I choose cake.
  • DenniMyuu
    DenniMyuu
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    Too much to read
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  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    Well....i know one thing.

    This thread won't die.

    Asked in July 2016 resurrected two years later :)
    Xbox One | EU | EP
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  • Dapper Dinosaur
    Dapper Dinosaur
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    Way too much to read. If you're going to make some kind of point, we don't need references to several other games, stop rambling and get to the point. You could have just said "I don't like how trivial death is in this game".
  • Enslaved
    Enslaved
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    Maybe there is no death in ESO, but failure... We have tons of that stuff.
  • Duffdin
    Duffdin
    Beardimus wrote: »
    Well....i know one thing.

    This thread won't die.

    Asked in July 2016 resurrected two years later :)

    True, but seemed better than spawning a new thread to discuss death, vestiges, and the weird Morrowind warp of the main quest start...
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    The Grim Reaper always wins.
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    All chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • bloodthirstyvampire
    bloodthirstyvampire
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    Well I'm undead does that count and besides I have my soul
    Edited by bloodthirstyvampire on May 11, 2018 9:36AM
  • KeiruNicrom
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    Woah these necromancers are getting really ambitious, just look at that wall of text.

    On topic: i must agree with the OP and the necromancer just below them. The fact we resawn fully equipped is strange. We may be essentially daedra now but our equipment is not. Now if there was some kind of lore regarding the wayshrines specifically mentioning how it reforms us and brings our stuff along this wouldnt be an issue. It could even be swung towards why non vestiges/non soulshriven can be reformed there and therefore cover the Morrowind(and soon to be Summerset i believe?) oversight.

    In the end the decision was likely about choosing gameplay over lore. Though honestly i prefer how WoW handles death with making you walk back to your corpse or have that angel thing rezz you at the graveyard and deliver the gear to you. Why she had to bash my stuff against the rocks and break it everytime i will never know
  • DoonerSeraph
    DoonerSeraph
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    Dragon Breaks explain everything? :D
  • Violynne
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    Having played my share of games where we get penalized for lost loot upon death, I refuse to play those games ever again.

    It's not so much that I can't accept the punishment, but there are mechanics in the game which make a death more about bad things happening and not the death itself.

    For example, falling off that cliff in Grahtwood for the 12th damn time in a row. To lose my legendary gear because of this? No freaking way would I accept this.

    I don't look at these as deaths, but knockouts. We're resuscitated, not brought back from the dead.

  • Istoppucks
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    There are plenty of games that have consequence for death. Conan Exiles just came out you want to die and lose everything that would be your game.
  • MaleAmazon
    MaleAmazon
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    or worse, saddle them with a fictional family as another means of driving player motivation

    Yeah, I also played those 2 games.

    The contrivances I´ve come up with to motivate why my character plays along with Bethesda´s little scripted events...

    Really, this kinda annoyed me in several Bethesda games (and is one reason I won´t touch The Witcher). TES3 Morrowind was better in this case, and Oblivion is kinda dumb. Why am I in prison? Why am I willingly being executed in Skyrim?

    And why did they even bother with that intro video in ESO...?

    Meh.

    It´s not that bad in ESO though, I basically just ignore it and roleplay other parts. But then, even the ability TO roleplay in-game is basically zero ("Yes my Queen", "Anything for you, my Queen" - yeah that sounds like stuff my character would say...).

    It´s back to fantasizing in my own head for me when I do some slight thinking about my character. Which isn´t a bad thing, really.

    As to the original problem, it´s apparent the most when you are treated as if you do not have a soul, when in fact you never started the MQ (which you were initially forced to start back in the day).

    The only thing I do about it is to make sure I always have a soul gem, then I make up some house rule that the soul gem is the only reason I can revive in the first place. Which has basically zero effect on gameplay, just a little something to anchor me somewhat to Nirn.


    Anyway, initial character motivation can be really quite interesting even though it is intrusive. The TES3 start was brilliant (and I think Todd Howard said they "really nailed that one"). Fallout New Vegas also has a basically perfect opening (including the intro video), and the wonderful quest writing makes me forgive them forcing me to be (have been) a courier.
    Edited by MaleAmazon on May 11, 2018 12:00PM
  • Lysette
    Lysette
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    Well, I have pointed that out a couple of times already, that ESO pvp is pointless, because there is nothing to loose and the enemy will be back on the battlefield pretty quickly again. This is in my opinion not pvp, but a friendly brawl - arcade style, ok, one could say it like this as well, I guess. There is no lasting impact of any kind, so what are these guys fighting for then?

    To the comparision with EVE - in EVE "you" are basically just consciousness - which is transferable between different clones. If your clone dies, "you" don't, your consciousness is transferred in the moment of death into your medical clone, waiting in your home station to host your consciousness in the case of your current clone dying. So you are basically a clone driver in EVE, called a capsuleer, because that clone is housed in a capsule, which supports the clone. Clones can die, but you are (i.e. your transferable consciousness is) truely immortal.
    Edited by Lysette on May 11, 2018 12:12PM
  • DMuehlhausen
    DMuehlhausen
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    I died while reading this cause it took to long.
  • Danikat
    Danikat
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    I don't mind reading long posts, but I agree that this one would benefit from being shorter and more concise. It seemed to be a lot of vaguely connected nostalgic ramblings about other games, inter spaced with occasional speculation on ESO lore and game mechanics and even having read the whole thing it was hard to understand what the point actually is.

    IMO starting a forum topic, especially if you know it's going to be a long post, should be approached like writing an article for a magazine or scientific journal (I realise many people will have no experience with either, but it is basically taught in school).
    • Start with a clear title to let the reader know what it's about.
    • Summarise your point in the very first paragraph - if you want something changed state that clearly and immediately. If you want other people's opinions give the question first. If you just want to share an idea then summarise what it is.
    • Then go over any background needed to explain or justify your point.
    • When you're done re-read it, or it's really important get someone else to read it, and look for anything you can remove, anything which isn't really relevant or is likely to provoke undesirable reactions in readers (and mistakes of course).

    So in this case start with the last paragraph - you'd like the game to make it clearer that the Vestige, having been killed and resurrected once, now cannot die permanently so if you're killed again you will always come back. And maybe explain how that works for characters who start in Morrowind (or Summerset) and don't start the main story.

    Then add that you enjoyed the older games where dying meant you lose everything you have with you (if you don't have a friend to keep it safe) and you'd like that brought back. Although in that case I think you'd need to bear in mind that games like that have become much rarer for good reason - it's not popular with a lot of people, and with MMOs today trying to target older audiences with less time to commit to grinding up from nothing it's going to be a hard sell.

    Long lists of games you played which featured those mechanics and your memories of them can come later, if you think it helps reinforce the point.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    "Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"
  • ADarklore
    ADarklore
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    I have an explanation for being able to resurrect... it's called VIDEO GAME and is for ENTERTAINMENT, not meant to mimic reality.
    CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
    ~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~
  • red_emu
    red_emu
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    Woah these necromancers are getting really ambitious, just look at that wall of text.

    On topic: i must agree with the OP and the necromancer just below them. The fact we resawn fully equipped is strange. We may be essentially daedra now but our equipment is not. Now if there was some kind of lore regarding the wayshrines specifically mentioning how it reforms us and brings our stuff along this wouldnt be an issue. It could even be swung towards why non vestiges/non soulshriven can be reformed there and therefore cover the Morrowind(and soon to be Summerset i believe?) oversight.

    In the end the decision was likely about choosing gameplay over lore. Though honestly i prefer how WoW handles death with making you walk back to your corpse or have that angel thing rezz you at the graveyard and deliver the gear to you. Why she had to bash my stuff against the rocks and break it everytime i will never know

    Technically you can also carry 7000 metal ingots, 12000 flowers that never wither and a ton of armour all without even a handbag, so immersion is not a strong point in any RPG games.
    PC - EU:
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  • jedtb16_ESO
    jedtb16_ESO
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    ADarklore wrote: »
    I have an explanation for being able to resurrect... it's called VIDEO GAME and is for ENTERTAINMENT, not meant to mimic reality.

    ^this.

    second time for this particular comment today:

    it's not a documentary.

    edit to add:

    if the op really wants death in the game to mean something for him/her then when you wipe delete that toon with all its gear etc. job done.
    Edited by jedtb16_ESO on May 11, 2018 3:41PM
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    Well....i know one thing.

    This thread won't die.

    Asked in July 2016 resurrected two years later :)
    To be fair, it probably took that long to read the OP.

    Looking forward to next update in 2020.

    WTFL;DR;

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • purple-magicb16_ESO
    purple-magicb16_ESO
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    I doubt they'll allow player looting on death. If it were my decision, I definitely wouldn't. So much qq and rage quits would be the death of eso. In terms of greater purpose and sense of reason behind the ability to ressurect multiple times, I think @Duffdin is correct that the answer lies in the Chaotic Creatia and previously developed lore.
    I don't comment here often but when I do, I get [snip]
  • Sting864
    Sting864
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    Thannazzar wrote: »
    I choose cake.

    Mmmmm.... cake...
  • LMar
    LMar
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    You answered it yourself regarding resurrection. Now i agree that first death should take you to Coldharbour. Would be a nice alternative to the shadowy figure.

    Now as for the gear. You could say that the strong annuic affinity that our vestige has means that everything that is on our person is recreated perfectly. After all Azure plasms can form all sorts of functioning things.

    Just think that all your respawning flowers are reformed from the stuff of Oblivion itself
    "If a stick of fish is a fish stick, it will stick like other fish sticks stick"
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  • Katahdin
    Katahdin
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    If you want perma death, you can do that all by yourself. Every time you die, no matter where you are, immediately log out to the character select screen, delete the character and make a new one. Let us know how many times that remains interesting to you
    Beta tester November 2013
  • Sekero
    Sekero
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    MY only question about the shadowy figure and the cinematic is: OK Now I know how I became the Vestige, but WHY did I become the Vestige? I imagine I somehow annoyed Mannimarco at some point, but it would be nice to know.
  • Pink_Violinz
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    You went back... from two years ago... to restate your point. I don't even know what game I was playing two years ago, let alone a specific post I made about it.
  • platonicidealgirlfriend
    anyone who wants to suggest that gear be lost on death should first have to grind out a full set of trial gear, undaunted helm+shoulder, vma or asylum gear, and all the stones to transmute 'em.
    Allanm wrote: »
    MY only question about the shadowy figure and the cinematic is: OK Now I know how I became the Vestige, but WHY did I become the Vestige? I imagine I somehow annoyed Mannimarco at some point, but it would be nice to know.

    mannimarco was running a meat grinder to feed souls to bal, it was literally nothing personnel, kid.
  • Sekero
    Sekero
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    anyone who wants to suggest that gear be lost on death should first have to grind out a full set of trial gear, undaunted helm+shoulder, vma or asylum gear, and all the stones to transmute 'em.
    If they have the stones to do it. (! don't)
    mannimarco was running a meat grinder to feed souls to bal, it was literally nothing personnel, kid.
    Ah ok good to know. BUT why didn't the other sacrifices become Vestiges too?
  • platonicidealgirlfriend
    Allanm wrote: »
    mannimarco was running a meat grinder to feed souls to bal, it was literally nothing personnel, kid.
    Ah ok good to know. BUT why didn't the other sacrifices become Vestiges too?

    they did! but most who undergo the process become mindless soul shriven, like the zombie trash mobs you find in coldharbor.

    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vestige_(creature)
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