Vote kick changes to stop the abuse of the dungeon finder system.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

The random group finder in this game is heavily abused by some to use as their own personal group tool at the expense of others. The system is heavily exploited especially in vet dungeons. This leaves more and more of the player base with a bad experience and discourages the use of the RGF system for many people. In other words, because this abuse goes unchecked, it creates problems instead of solving them.

I would change how the system works as follows:

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

If you are picky who you run dungeons with, make some friends and join/start a guild. This is what guilds and friend lists are for. Use them. The dungeon finder is not your tool to find people to play with who meet your personal requirements.

Would you agree to these changes?

Avalon · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

I don't know what the changes that need to be made are, but it is annoying as can be in every MMO I have played. And worse, the devs almost never change the votekick system, apparently perfectly happy with people abusing the system.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Avalon wrote: »

I don't know what the changes that need to be made are, but it is annoying as can be in every MMO I have played. And worse, the devs almost never change the votekick system, apparently perfectly happy with people abusing the system.

The system is so abused in most games, that i actually create guilds to run content because the elitists are favored and casuals and average players get screwed over. However, it should not be that way. The system is designed so people can find others to do group content with quickly. Having to meet someones personal requirements makes the whole system pointless for anyone who isnt an elitist meta player that spends 8 hours a day playing.

Taleof2Cities · May 2018

It's been said many times ... if you don't like the blind draw for your dungeon-mates, don't use the dungeon finder.

Run with friends or guildies instead.

DuskMarine · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

It's been said many times ... if you don't like the blind draw for your dungeon-mates, don't use the dungeon finder.

Run with friends or guildies instead.

yea but if you wanna take a chance an someone kicks you cause they can abuse the system means the system in itself is worthless

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

Aliyavana · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

I only agree with the first point

DuskMarine · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

its because if its a system the game is gonna have running then it needs to be revised so we all can use it gleefully without someone thinking they can abuse it for personal gain

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

DuskMarine wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

its because if its a system the game is gonna have running then it needs to be revised so we all can use it gleefully without someone thinking they can abuse it for personal gain

Oh, I totally agree it's an imperfect system. There may be some adjustments added to make it better, but I disagree with the proposed changes here. I don't think they would solve more problems than they create in the process.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

I think you misunderstood the poll

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

I think you misunderstood the poll

My comment is toward both sides. Those that kick with little or no reason and those that get kicked for a reason which may be valid or not. All of those people would be better off grouping with like minded players instead of torturing themselves with randoms time after time.

DuskMarine · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

redspecter23 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

I think you misunderstood the poll

My comment is toward both sides. Those that kick with little or no reason and those that get kicked for a reason which may be valid or not. All of those people would be better off grouping with like minded players instead of torturing themselves with randoms time after time.

i think honestly there needs to be a point in the dungeon you cant kick the person. cause if you had a nice time with them to that point then you dont need to have the ability to kick them just cause your buddy needs the helmet.

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

DuskMarine wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

I think you misunderstood the poll

My comment is toward both sides. Those that kick with little or no reason and those that get kicked for a reason which may be valid or not. All of those people would be better off grouping with like minded players instead of torturing themselves with randoms time after time.

i think honestly there needs to be a point in the dungeon you cant kick the person. cause if you had a nice time with them to that point then you dont need to have the ability to kick them just cause your buddy needs the helmet.

Well maybe they struggled through the first couple bosses, but the final boss is just beyond their capabilities. You can ask them nicely to leave at the end, but if he chooses not to, you just get 3 people leaving him alone there to be booted anyway and everyone suffers. You may end up with a situation opposite of what you're intending where a group may vote to kick at the 9 minute mark just to make sure they'll be fine later without having a chance to see if they would or not.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

I think if people want to farm gear and speed run they should form pre made groups or join those guilds . The original purpose was to do the content for people not able to do that yet . Instead it has become a tool for elitists to push their agenda .

drjokepu · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

Next to where you select your role there should be two options you would need to chose from: “I’m a chill bro” and “I’m a grumpy person”. This way grumpy people could get grouped with other grumpy people and chill dudes and dudettes could be grouped with other chill dudes and dudettes. Or maybe do this automatically based on how often you initiate a kick of a non-offline group member.

DuskMarine · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

redspecter23 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

I think you misunderstood the poll

My comment is toward both sides. Those that kick with little or no reason and those that get kicked for a reason which may be valid or not. All of those people would be better off grouping with like minded players instead of torturing themselves with randoms time after time.

i think honestly there needs to be a point in the dungeon you cant kick the person. cause if you had a nice time with them to that point then you dont need to have the ability to kick them just cause your buddy needs the helmet.

Well maybe they struggled through the first couple bosses, but the final boss is just beyond their capabilities. You can ask them nicely to leave at the end, but if he chooses not to, you just get 3 people leaving him alone there to be booted anyway and everyone suffers. You may end up with a situation opposite of what you're intending where a group may vote to kick at the 9 minute mark just to make sure they'll be fine later without having a chance to see if they would or not.

a friend of mine got kicked on the last boss before just because they wanted a buddy to get the helmet so yea thats my point for that one. at a certain point you shouldnt be able to kick a person which is where alot of the abuse comes from.

notimetocare · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Sounds very stupid. Vote kick is there for a reason. Replacing offline or bad players. There should never be a penalty for using it

PlagueSD · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I would change how the system works as follows:

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

So what do we do about the player that just stands at the entrance not doing anything? Wait the 10 mins?

Anotherone773 wrote: »

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

And what happens if George is WORSE than Bob?

Anotherone773 wrote: »

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

Use /ignore

Anotherone773 wrote: »

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

Are you CRAZY? Why should I get a penalty for vote kicking someone? I normally vote kick players after the dungeon is complete so we don't have to break group and form up again to run another dungeon.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

If you are picky who you run dungeons with, make some friends and join/start a guild. This is what guilds and friend lists are for. Use them. The dungeon finder is not your tool to find people to play with who meet your personal requirements.

I do have friends. Sometimes they can't all be online at the same time. That means we may have to pug 1 player.

redspecter23 · May 2018

Absolutely not!

DuskMarine wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Why do people insist on running with randoms then complain when the randoms don't run the way they want? No amount of rules added to the dungeon finder will remove unwanted players. They will always be there because that is the nature of being grouped with 3 random people.

I think you misunderstood the poll

My comment is toward both sides. Those that kick with little or no reason and those that get kicked for a reason which may be valid or not. All of those people would be better off grouping with like minded players instead of torturing themselves with randoms time after time.

i think honestly there needs to be a point in the dungeon you cant kick the person. cause if you had a nice time with them to that point then you dont need to have the ability to kick them just cause your buddy needs the helmet.

Well maybe they struggled through the first couple bosses, but the final boss is just beyond their capabilities. You can ask them nicely to leave at the end, but if he chooses not to, you just get 3 people leaving him alone there to be booted anyway and everyone suffers. You may end up with a situation opposite of what you're intending where a group may vote to kick at the 9 minute mark just to make sure they'll be fine later without having a chance to see if they would or not.

a friend of mine got kicked on the last boss before just because they wanted a buddy to get the helmet so yea thats my point for that one. at a certain point you shouldnt be able to kick a person which is where alot of the abuse comes from.

Those 3 were horrible people. As I mentioned above, this proposed solution doesn't remove horrible people, it just forces them to adjust how they are horrible. Someone would likely make an addon to prompt you to remember that players are locked in in 60 seconds. Would you like to initiate a vote kick now to remove a potential problem player? Y/N.

Truthfully, those 3 people with a friend that wanted the helmet should have just formed a 4 man group and ran the dungeon. It would have saved everyone a ton of hassle.

boombazookajd · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

I want vote kick gone. If you PUG, you get who you get and thats part of PUG'ing. If you don't like it, back out and serve your 15 minute cool down OR don't PUG.

The only kick comes in the form of a ready check instead of the vote kick, if you don't respond you are kicked so a player who isn't afk or has been dc'd can come in and the group can get on with their dungeon.

Otherwise, perhaps dungeon groups can be made to be more homogenous, instead of chucking leveling players in with higher leveled players, even then, it removes the chance of experienced players helping out the lesser so.

One thing is for sure, it needs to be done, but it isn't going to be a simple solution.

Stinkyremy · May 2018

Absolutely not!

"You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline."
great so fake tanks and CP10s can queue for vet WGT and you are screwed, leaving gives you a 15 min ban...
nice logic.... (sarcasm)

WhiteNoiseMaker · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

redspecter23 wrote: »

Truthfully, those 3 people with a friend that wanted the helmet should have just formed a 4 man group and ran the dungeon. It would have saved everyone a ton of hassle.

And therein lies the rub...

There's people who don't want to form their own groups, or whom want to gain the DF bonus damage or Random Daily bonus XP, who then abuse and kick regular players who queue into Dungeon Finder because they are any combination of the following:

Playing a Support Role they queued for, i.e. Tank or Healer in a Normal Dungeon
Not at an arbitrary CP level
Not level 50
Trying to do the quest & talking to NPC's
Not keeping up with the charge-aheads

These problem players believe that it's their right to force their playstyle and play goals upon anyone that uses the Dungeon Finder. In their opinion, it's incumbent on everyone else to create guild and friend groups, while the Dungeon Finder is used for their fast elite runs, because they 'can't be bothered with scrubs'. Or they'll say...

"LOL, it's only a Normal! Nothing matters, just speed run it"

These are the people making the community toxic for new players and old players alike, bad people who are using the Dungeon Finder as originally intended.

Sting864 · May 2018

Other( see comments)

I agree that kicking should not be allowed before the first pull... but I said other because I don't think the "kick/no kick" pendulum should swing towards "no kick" too far...
Instead of time-limiting kicks, maybe kicks should not be allowed until the 2nd or 3rd miniboss... That way groups could see how others are performing before kicking someone....

I believe there are two directives that should govern group content:

The 1st is Wil Wheaton's Prime Directive of gaming... namely, "Don't be a richard..."
Secondly... slow down... where's the fire??

Pink_Violinz · May 2018

Absolutely not!

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

If you are picky who you run dungeons with, make some friends and join/start a guild. This is what guilds and friend lists are for. Use them. The dungeon finder is not your tool to find people to play with who meet your personal requirements.

Would you agree to these changes?

I understand the desire for change, but almost none of these I can get behind. You also don't mention if they go afk, and since thats kinda hard to prove that they're actually gone gone I don't see how it'd work. It's usually pretty obvious from the start if a player is problematic. I don't want to wait 10 minutes to kick him out, if he's going to go around and pull everything with an ice staff and kill us all.

For the second, more of the same. It's usually obvious if someone is being an issue. Say, we kick a false tank and get a good one. After a few pulls, we learn one of the dps is completely naked and refuses to put on armor. Welp, we can't kick him because we kicked a fake tank earlier. Hope the other dps is good enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Third one is harmless, but I'm pretty sure harassing anyone is general is bannable.

Fourth, see above. Sometimes someone becomes a problem deeper in, and if you already got rid of someone for whatever reason, you're stuck with them.

I run randoms to level characters. Good skill points, experience, undaunted, etc. Just last night we had to kick four or five tanks because they wouldn't enter the dungeon, wouldn't taunt, went afk from the start, and so on. There are some really bad players out there, and depending on the night they can be the majority. Usually, if you're getting kicked, there is a serious problem with your habits or gear and you should really look into it.

Anotherone773 · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

@PlagueSD

So what do we do about the player that just stands at the entrance not doing anything? Wait the 10 mins?

Nothing, run the dungeon. Typically the people who vote kick are vets, meta players, and elitists. Im sure they can survive for 10 minutes of trash mobs with only 3 players. But do you know how many times ive been vote kicked within the first couple of minutes of a dungeon because the port messed up and i was trying to work around it. I mean we are talking 2 minutes after "group forming" here. Dont want to wait for other players, join guild/make friends. Also your assuming because the person is in the dungeon on your client that their client is loaded. That is not always the case. Some people take a couple of minutes to load into a dungeon.

And what happens if George is WORSE than Bob?

Then you should of stuck with Bob. The vote kick system isnt there so you can screen your own personal play group. Sure being able to vote kick is helpful in many situations, but the abuse of the system actually goes against everything the system was designed for. Guilds are for player screening not the RGF.

Are you CRAZY? Why should I get a penalty for vote kicking someone? I normally vote kick players after the dungeon is complete so we don't have to break group and form up again to run another dungeon.

So you vote kick the pugger. Ive never heard of people doing this. However if its common, a simple solution is that vote kicks after the final boss/activity complete dont incur the penalty. Why should you get a penalty for vote kicking? Because its called random group finder not personal screening tool. If you want to screen people to meet your requirements, guilds fulfill this requirement. You can put in place any ridiculous requirements you desire to play with you.

I do have friends. Sometimes they can't all be online at the same time. That means we may have to pug 1 player.

Then you should either make more friends, join a guild of like minded people( or create your own), or accept that you may have to lower your standards for an extra player.

RANKK7 · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

Anotherone773 wrote: »

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

1) I can agree.

3) I very much agree. In worst case scenario one could say to another player "you are very bad at your role", no need to say words like "worthless piece of ***" and similar crap. I really would like to see such people permabanned and there are around some (it's a minority for what I've seen but there are and that's the kind of crap that really pisses me off beyond imagination, in life as in game), such low behavior should be banned for sure and not lightly.

4) The penalty for kick I do not agree, a member could be kicked for several reasons, even the reason number 3). I don't see this one as a good idea.

2) I wouldn't put a limit on the number of replacements either, 2 rude players can happen or someone who is an hindrance wasting time on purpose, there are of that kind too. It's risky.

So I kind of agree with point 1) could lower the minutes tho because can be hard trolling or rude member, and certainly I agree with point 3)

Avalon · May 2018

Yes, they are needed and overdue!

Instead of not before 10 minutes, how about not within the first 2 minutes, and not after any dungeon bosses have been killed? Not sure why, but the most often I get kicked is either right away, or right before the last boss.

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

Absolutely not!

I've never been kicked, nor have I ever seen a group start a vote to kick someone for no reason. I see no reason to change the system. It's there to let you remove toxic players from your game.

If you're frequently getting kicked from PUGs, there is probably a reason why, and it starts with you.

1. You're probably toxic
2. You might not be performing at an adequate level (listen to advice from other players if they provide it + look up builds if you're struggling)

Morgul667 · May 2018

Yes with a few minor changes(see comments)

Item 2 does not seem right to me

30 minutes penalty is too much

Dracan_Fontom · May 2018

Absolutely not!

This is more of problem with people rather than the vote to kick system itself imo.

Argruna · May 2018

Other( see comments)

Anotherone773 wrote: »

The random group finder in this game is heavily abused by some to use as their own personal group tool at the expense of others. The system is heavily exploited especially in vet dungeons. This leaves more and more of the player base with a bad experience and discourages the use of the RGF system for many people. In other words, because this abuse goes unchecked, it creates problems instead of solving them.

I would change how the system works as follows:

1) You cannot vote kick anyone in the first 10 minutes of a dungeon UNLESS they go offline.

2)A position can only be replaced once during a dungeon unless that person goes offline or quits the dungeon. So if Bob is replace by George, you are stuck with George for the rest of the dungeon. However Jane can be replace by Chris.

3)Verbally abusing people in a dungeon in order to get them to quit so you can replace them is a bannable offense.

4)If you vote to kick someone( either vote yes or initiate the vote) you get a 30 minute penalty timer before you can queue again. This timer starts when you exit the dungeon you voted to kick from NOT from the time you vote kick. So make sure its worth replacing someone.

If you are picky who you run dungeons with, make some friends and join/start a guild. This is what guilds and friend lists are for. Use them. The dungeon finder is not your tool to find people to play with who meet your personal requirements.

Would you agree to these changes?

WoW has done pretty much everything you have said and their LFD still has problems. I remember the times of not being able to kick AT ALL, despite rarely ever kicking, even though the hunter was misdirecting all the mobs onto the healer and then feigning death. Or worse, being in the LFR (looking for raid) before the Path of Daze changes and the other people deciding to systematically kick all the hunters to get rid of the troll. So, without ado:

1) Then that just means more people will alt+F4 if they don't want to run the dungeon, kicking in your 4th point as you failed to adjust for kicking offline.

2) Someone can hold that group hostage with that. Especially if George wants to afk and only jump here and there to prevent the afk timer. Queue group disbanding and being unable to do anything about George.

3) Abusing people is against the CoC anyway. Report with descriptions and a screenshot, ignore, go on way.

4) Again a group could wind up being held hostage or a person wind up being held hostage by a group. The tank doesn't wanna do the dungeon and just stands and dance, meanwhile no one can do anything because it turns out the troll tank votekicked someone to negate any further kicks. A dps could wind up in a guild group of a tank/healer/dps and not be able to do the dungeon at all because troll group wants to troll.

A better way to combat this is to actually do something like what Overwatch did. A kick report counter. Once the person has hit that threshold number, it is looked at to see what is going on. Why was this person kicked 100+ times in a span of a week? Let's look at the logs. Why has this person kicked 100+ people in a week? Log time. That would make people more wary of kicking and slowly get into a 'is it worth it?'

I've been votekicked before in WoW. Enhance shaman during cata. I was vote kicked for not hexxing the farthest enemy even though I repeated that hex has a short range, please switch my target to the mages. I've been kicked because a hunter didn't want to compete with me against gear. I've been kicked simply because I was a dps shaman and not a healer. I've been kicked for getting boss aggro and not dumping it (pro tip, shamans had no aggro dump cept hoping the tank taunts off or dying).
However I have been the initiate on kicks as well. The tank/healer who thought they could hold a group hostage while I was on my rogue, the mage that decided to warn people to leave said vote kicking them won't work. I vote kicked the healer, typed 'stupid rogue' and like that, healer was gone. The tank got upset and pulled mobs then dropped group forgetting that duh, rogue and mage. One Vanish and Ice Block and we completed the dungeon with a new tank/healer.

All in all, since this problem seems to be more prevalent in vet dungeons, it might just be simpler to lock them out. Instate a vote kick limit, not only on the kicker but on the kicked as well. Lock them out of the dungeon finder for a week. Make the limit smaller for the kickers and a bit more lenient on the kicked, though, if you are still getting kicked repeatedly by different groups, you are done for the week. Consequences for everyone.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Vote kick changes to stop the abuse of the dungeon finder system.

Vote kick changes to stop the abuse of the dungeon finder system. 243 votes