When is the next "Balance" changes & Will the entire class finally be addressed?

MaxwellC · May 2018

So clearly after the massive disappointment and ill communication, I'd assume most if not a large portion of those who participated & wasted their time compiling class feedback are desperately looking forward to the next balance changes (I sure am). Summerset isle was hyped up to be something big (other than the actual zone its-self); We were suppose to see much needed improvements with the class as a whole but unfortunately that clearly wasn't the case. I'm sure Summerset isle will also bring forth stability in the PvP area (thanks @ZOS_BrianWheeler you the MVP mate) but frankly that's all I'm looking forward to besides possibly the jewelry crafting.

Regarding the "Will the entire class finally be addressed" comment; This is primarily geared to my class (Dragon Knight). As stated Summerset isle was hyped to be something that would bring game changing development in our class skills but take a look at the DK class. Yet again for the idk 4th or possibly 5th patch in a row, the class struggles have been ignored once again. Mag DK received some buffs but also received something completely stupid (IMO) i.e heals attached to offensive skills when this class is a lockdown/pressure & a "Stand your ground" class; So much for class identity huh.

The "buffs" the DK class received never addressed most of the pain problems mainly stam DKs faced i.e dealing decent damage in PvP (PvE wise we're solid). The buffs did not address the pain points Mag DKs faced in PvE (PvP wise we're solid). After have tested on the PTS it has become clear that only the combustion passive addition was decent while every single change aside from that, was a terrible change.
Both classes face a serious sustain issue in PvP while Mag DKs will continue to face sustain issues in PvE & PvP. In the feedback thread many players suggested change useless passives like elder dragon & some voiced bringing back battle roar but unfortunately that was ignored too. Wing changes remained unchanged even though testing showed snaring AoEs/DoTs would re-apply the snare even when you cleanse it with the new changes to reflecting plate (DK wing skill).

I'll close with asking do you feel that your entire class has been addressed this time & what changes did you actually want.
P.S hopefully communication is better next time.

Moloch1514 · May 2018

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

madchuska83 · May 2018

I just wish they would put Magicka characters back on par with Stam builds. One of the best players I know has hit 72k during a group parse on a StamDK. His MagBlade hovers around 50k+. Don't you think a wielder of powerful magic would be more powerful(or at least as powerful) as someone with blades & bow?

MaxwellC · May 2018

@Moloch1514
Yeah the cycle has repeated for a long time now; I've been preaching about Stam DK needs when it comes to PvP & have spoken out on Mag DK changes e.g the first iteration of their dragons' blood change (which was terrible).

DuskMarine · May 2018

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

MaxwellC · May 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

So that means we should stop trying to achieve it, glad to see you're working back from your conclusion. Also games that feature the holy trinity have come close to what balance is.

Moloch1514 · May 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

DuskMarine · May 2018

Moloch1514 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

well the thing is most people want class balance mostly for pvp(go figure) which they keep yelling class balance when they should be yelling fix battle spirit. i mean battle spirit is the perfect way to balance out pvp. pve its really just got to go on weve got the gear its time to quit nerfing and just start giving us harder content with each update with gear that keeps up with that.

Tasear · May 2018

Balance includes different forms of gameplay. For a very long time some tanks and healers in certain classes been neglected into non existent. The patch focused on this issue while making some minor adjustments elsewhere. The extra damage from heavy and light attacks will make Magicka classes quite strong. Stamina lost almost 9k or so Penetration. On focus magdk got sustain issues accounted for so I ask describe more of your issue. What isn't working. What do you wish was better?

Tasear · May 2018

Moloch1514 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

You get double resources from heavy attacks on off balanced opponents.

Moloch1514 · May 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

You get double resources from heavy attacks on off balanced opponents.

Yes, and I run a HA Pet Sorc build because of Morrowind (I solo or duo Vet dungeons, no Trials). For Maelstrom I ran a 1 bar version. Doesn't make sustaining via HA fun though.

Tasear · May 2018

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

You get double resources from heavy attacks on off balanced opponents.

Yes, and I run a HA Pet Sorc build because of Morrowind (I solo or duo Vet dungeons, no Trials). For Maelstrom I ran a 1 bar version. Doesn't make sustaining via HA fun though.

What would make it fun?

Moloch1514 · May 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

You get double resources from heavy attacks on off balanced opponents.

Yes, and I run a HA Pet Sorc build because of Morrowind (I solo or duo Vet dungeons, no Trials). For Maelstrom I ran a 1 bar version. Doesn't make sustaining via HA fun though.

What would make it fun?

Feeling as powerful as my character felt this time last year.

casparian · May 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

something completely stupid (IMO) i.e heals attached to offensive skills when this class is a lockdown/pressure & a "Stand your ground" class

This is backward. Sources of healing that you get by staying on the offensive are exactly what allows classes to stand their ground in PVP.

Sting864 · May 2018

***(PvE wise we're solid).***

ZOS doesn't rely heavily on PvP feedback RE: balance issues.... Why?? Every build in PvP (or almost every build...) has different attributes... Therefore there are too many variables to consider...
An NPC DD in the PvE ENVIRONMENT (That's the "E" part...) is very predictable, thus the balance is "solid..."

Tasear · May 2018

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Same as always...next patch, aka Soon. Then repeat next PTS cycle.

you know yall are hopeing for something that no game has ever reached right? true balance will never be a thing you just have to take the good with the bad. no company will ever get it perfect

Most of us don't expect perfect balance. Expecting reasonable attempts at balance/fun gameplay more than every other year isn't asking too much. Honestly I just wanted to see some of the Morrowind/HOTR nerfs to sustain, mundas stones, and traits revised. My build interest started to peak going into Morrowind, and since then it has been nothing but NERF NERF NERF to anything I try (PVE).

You get double resources from heavy attacks on off balanced opponents.

Yes, and I run a HA Pet Sorc build because of Morrowind (I solo or duo Vet dungeons, no Trials). For Maelstrom I ran a 1 bar version. Doesn't make sustaining via HA fun though.

What would make it fun?

Feeling as powerful as my character felt this time last year.

But what about balance for game. It's typically thought stamina has a small edge because of greater risk. On point, what makes you feel powerful? Was it just numbers or skills themselves?

MaxwellC · May 2018

@casparian
No it isn't backwards, attaching a ridiculous heal to cinderstorm and petrify isn't what allows someone to stand their ground in PvP. I've played this class for years & what the class had originally was close to what standing your ground was. Healing with cinderstorm played out in PvP pretty strong iirc & again as stated above Mag DKs are strong in PVP as they're close to what the lockdown part of the DK class is suppose to be.
On the Stam front... uh yeah changing petrify so it gives a weird heal to the target the enemy hits next is just stupid.

Lastly in PvP the healing given to those abilities isn't what allows you to stand your ground, & that is your misconception. In PvP what helps us DKs stand our ground on the Stam side is battle roar, take flight, fossilize; So one passive, one ability & one ultimate, allows us to stand our ground. Mag side you've got choking talons, embers, flame lash, ferocious leap, dragons' blood,etc.

Edit: Also the changes to cinderstorm and petrify were clearly in a dueling sense as OW PvP both were rendered useless while in dueling (my comment intended) it was strong.

MaxwellC · May 2018

@Sting864
Actually ZOS balances PvE with the use of PvP, also your statement after that regarding different builds is completely defeated as PvE uses different builds; I'm not sure why you're obfuscating but okay.

Juhasow · May 2018

In future update™

Sting864 · May 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Sting864
Actually ZOS balances PvE with the use of PvP, also your statement after that regarding different builds is completely defeated as PvE uses different builds; I'm not sure why you're obfuscating but okay.

Actually the "balance" you speak of is not PvP vs PvE... Players are a variable... One tank build can have different attributes, skills, etc. than the next. That's an ESO selling point... So in trying to balance, one is balancing the two sides of the "v..."

Because ZOS is only responsible for the "E" (Environment of the game...), in an encounter with a certain number of tanks, all the tanks ("Goblin Marauder" or whatever...) can be produced by ZOS to have similar skills and attributes. So the "E" in "PvE" can be maintained as a constant versus one player or another... Whereas the "P's" in "PvP" are both variables.... An equation with one variable is easier to balance than one with two variables... What obfuscation?? It's EZPZ...

MaxwellC · May 2018

@Sting864
Okay no ZOS balances the game not by looking at one side but rather both sides hence why most PvP changes influence PvE in a negative way and vise versa. This is backed up by past threads and patch notes so I've got no clue what you're stating.

Okay again you're obfuscating lol, like you're trying to make a statement & it's jumbled in incoherent nonsense. ZOS isn't solely responsible for one kind of balance as you seem to state but they're responsible for both sides & after that you completely lost me.

VexingArcanist · May 2018

You could be on the receiving end of class tweaks when they aren't tweaking like warden magicka sub assault morph removing the stun (nerf). Yeah, those not class tweak tweaks.

Sting864 · May 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Sting864
Okay no ZOS balances the game not by looking at one side but rather both sides hence why most PvP changes influence PvE in a negative way and vise versa. This is backed up by past threads and patch notes so I've got no clue what you're stating.

Okay again you're obfuscating lol, like you're trying to make a statement & it's jumbled in incoherent nonsense. ZOS isn't solely responsible for one kind of balance as you seem to state but they're responsible for both sides & after that you completely lost me.

Nonsense??? Like, stay in school....
Can ZOS determine each individual's playstyle (Hint: no....)? Who besides the developer of the content in the environment can develop the environment?? (Ergo... oops... THEREFORE... ZOS IS solely responsible for the environment....)Trying to balance the game using characteristics from the entire player base is lunacy.... Trying to balance the game using characteristics from the content you develop yourself makes more sense...

zaria · May 2018

VexingArcanist wrote: »

You could be on the receiving end of class tweaks when they aren't tweaking like warden magicka sub assault morph removing the stun (nerf). Yeah, those not class tweak tweaks.

Yes, note that an class balance patch has an high chase of beeing an morrowind level hurt.
Hopefully the bean counters will veto that level of pain as it will also hurt the bottom line.

The difference between good players who can do all vet dlc dungeons and the best who can do 75K unbuffed is 3X.
This is far higher than in wow, and this obviously only includes player you want in an vet dlc dungeon.
In pvp you will always loose against that level of skill unless in an group.

Again fixing this will seriously hurt, face it SoZ is not very skilled.
Read my sig, you ask for close air support from an deathstar.

ak_pvp · May 2018

The sustain changes were fine, sustain could be built around already though. Everything else was suckish and barely useful for PvE

Bigevilpeter · May 2018

I play stam DK pve and I sustain pretty well and do good damage, will get even more sustain in summerset so yaay. got nothing to complain about.

I hate pvp so dont play it that much don't know if stam dks are good or bad, just got vigor and caltrops

MaxwellC · May 2018

@Sting864
Mate lol I graduate this spring with two degrees & plan to go back for another in the fall or next spring so you can stop right there.
See you've already lost when you have to resort to ad-hominems; I now know what I wanted to say, it's that you lack any substantive refute so you resorted to obfuscating your entire response so you can sound like you actually had a substantive argument which you clearly lacked and still do.

Touching on the "Can ZOS" paragraph; Again I've got no idea what you're trying to state. It sounds like you're making an argument about "Only ZOS knows how to balance & therefore you're wrong *sad face*". Unfortunately if you are making such an statement well you would be wrong as there are PTS, Feedback threads

, and the upcoming class representative thing

.
If you're making an argument about balancing between PvE and PvP well again you're wrong as they balance both. They balance PvP based on how a class, skill, or cp, performs in PvP. A clear example would be the changes to dawnbreaker but clearly there's a plethora of changes which have impacted PvE from PvP changes.

Sting864 · May 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Sting864
Mate lol I graduate this spring with two degrees & plan to go back for another in the fall or next spring so you can stop right there.
See you've already lost when you have to resort to ad-hominems; I now know what I wanted to say, it's that you lack any substantive refute so you resorted to obfuscating your entire response so you can sound like you actually had a substantive argument which you clearly lacked and still do.

Touching on the "Can ZOS" paragraph; Again I've got no idea what you're trying to state. It sounds like you're making an argument about "Only ZOS knows how to balance & therefore you're wrong *sad face*". Unfortunately if you are making such an statement well you would be wrong as there are PTS, Feedback threads , and the upcoming class representative thing .
If you're making an argument about balancing between PvE and PvP well again you're wrong as they balance both. They balance PvP based on how a class, skill, or cp, performs in PvP. A clear example would be the changes to dawnbreaker but clearly there's a plethora of changes which have impacted PvE from PvP changes.

Definition of ad hominem
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect: an ad hominem argument

"Mate," you clearly think you know the meaning of "ad hominems." I do not think that word means what you think it means... For someone who claims to be so smart, I was stressing that you should do what you like to do, and stay in school...
Re: Balance, I cannot explain it any more basically than I have... PvP feedback obviously isn't used in that regard... ZOS cannot regulate HOW a player plays, and still claim that you "can play how you want." ZOS cannot determine how anyone plays... If they could, there would be no need for "build" videos would there?
So that leaves the environmental content that ZOS develops... THAT's the feedback (PvE "E" is for "ENVIRONMENT...") I don't know how much more basic II can make it... There's PvP and PvE.... The only variable that ZOS can control is the "E" that they develop... So they can balance based on that constant....
Nowhere in the preceding post was anything approaching an ad hominems attack displayed... I find it curious that you can state that you have no idea what I'm trying to state, yet call my idea wrong...

brandonv516 · May 2018

All classes have been addressed. They want a tank, dps, and healing skill line for each class. Eventually every class will be desired as healers and tanks.

There are no "stand your ground", "stick to the shadows", "bless ye friends", etc. classes.

MaxwellC · May 2018

@Sting864
Okay mate you can stop I've clearly used the word correctly but I honestly haven't claimed to be "smart" you implied I wasn't which is why you've ignored my argument and went to attack my character i.e an ad hominem.

Okay again after you attack my character again you go on this tangent about balance and you jumble your words. Mate don't take offense because I'm not attacking you but I'm assuming English is your second language? If so then if you speak Japanese I'll more than be able to accommodate you with this back n forth but if not then I cannot help you because you're making no sense; All I can do is simply guess what you're stating which again is incoherent.

MaxwellC · May 2018

@brandonv516
Isn't it weird though, like before wrobel was all about class diversity & what one class does another should be able to do it better. All of a sudden it's a complete 180 to what he actually wanted i.e less homogenizing of the classes in general.

I did hear a rumor or maybe it isn't one but that they have a new combat lead or something like that. If so this person needs to make a thread so we can address the current mind set of homogenizing the classes.

When is the next "Balance" changes &amp; Will the entire class finally be addressed?

When is the next "Balance" changes & Will the entire class finally be addressed?