Direct damage attacks: what, exactly, is this?

Jayman1000 · May 2018

Is there some way of knowing what a "Direct damage attack" is? Which attacks are this?

EDIT: Ok so just tested by adding some cp points into Master-at-Arms that says it "Increases damage with direct damage attacks". But both reflective light and light + heavy attack gets no extra damage. Obviously these are not "direct damage attacks". I really don't it.

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I don't get it, it's so confusing and incomprehensible.

Here are my guesses:
- Light+heavy attack damage on the target being aimed at (but NOT potential damage aoe on surrounding enemies from for example destruction passive for lightning staff heavy attacks)
- Directly aimed skills on the target being aimed at, for example templars reflective light (only the target being aimed at, not for example the two targets for the morphed split version that can hit 3 enemies at once).

- But Jabs for example I would not consider direct damage at all.

What are you thoughts? Do you know something with certainty?

Sergykid · May 2018

direct damage and damage over time are greatly wrongly explained in the game. Take aoes like elemental blockade, they show white damage. The game says that white damage is (direct) damage and damage over time is orange. Selene procs from direct attacks but it procs from dots too. Jabs are both direct damage and dot, procs anything, but gets bonus damage from nothing. Lightning staff heavy attack seems to be a dot since it has orange damage, same with flurry from dual wield.

Spacemonkey · May 2018

My understanding (and it may be wrong) was that direct damage was anything that wasnt a status damage (like a dot).

Kalgert · May 2018

I will probably take a guess that this is any attack that doesn't come from a Damage Over Time effect or an Area of Effect attack.

Which means that attacks from general abilities get a bonus from that direct attack buffer.

mesmerizedish · May 2018

Kalgert wrote: »

I will probably take a guess that this is any attack that doesn't come from a Damage Over Time effect or an Area of Effect attack.

Which means that attacks from general abilities get a bonus from that direct attack buffer.

AoEs can be direct damage or damage over time. It depends on the specific spell or ability.

The game really needs to include this information on the skill tooltips.

Sergykid · May 2018

some aoes have white damage, some aoes have orange damage. Game says orange damage is dot, but some people say all aoes are dots. Really if you want to build perfectly, the game confuses you more than helping.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

Ok so just tested by adding some cp points into Master-at-Arms that says it "Increases damage with direct damage attacks". But both reflective light and light + heavy attack gets no extra damage. Obviously these are not "direct damage attacks".

I don't get it.

maltinkilic · May 2018

Vampires bane is both direct damage and dot. Initial damage is direct, then dot. Have you tried on that?

Thogard · May 2018

Direct damage means the skill hits them once for one amount of damage. Dizzy swing, snipe, crystal frags, etc.

Things like flurry, soul assault, the bow ult, etc, are abilities that, when activated, hit the opponent multiple times. Therefore they are not considered direct damage, but rather DOTs.

The best example to illustrate the difference is the Templar skill jabs. Jabs itself is a channel / dot because one skill activation leads to multiple “jabs” on the target, each with its own damage amount.. and therefore not a direct damage ability.

But it has a chance to proc “burning light” in the Templar passives, which is considered a direct damage attack, because each proc of that ability leads to one and only one damage number.

Light attacks and heavy attacks do not count AFAIK

Jayman1000 · May 2018

But here's something interesting. Some of the damage from Jabs actually count as direct damage attack. Again tested by adding and removing points into master-at-arms. It's only some of it, it seems like it's the one that has 25% hit chance from the passive Burning Light.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Jabs itself is a channel / dot.

But it has a chance to proc “burning light” in the Templar passives, which is considered a direct damage attack.

yeah I just figured that out. Does it make sense though? Why is this a direct damage attack?

mesmerizedish · May 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Ok so just tested by adding some cp points into Master-at-Arms that says it "Increases damage with direct damage attacks". But both reflective light and light + heavy attack gets no extra damage. Obviously these are not "direct damage attacks".

I don't get it.

Basic attacks get their damage boost from different CP stars. It would be dumb for them to double-dip. It would not be terrible for the text to be changed from "attacks" to "abilities" or something to avoid the basic attack confusion.

Ladislao · May 2018

The most important thing to understand is that in general direct damage is the opposite of damage over time.
So, for example, Twin Slashes deals initial direct (instantaneous) damage and apply DoT on target. Another example: Impulse deals AoE damage but it is still direct damage.
As far as I know, the first tick of AoE DoT skills (like Wall of Elements) is direct damage as well (because it immediately deals damage). But I can be wrong.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Basic attacks get their damage boost from different CP stars. It would be dumb for them to double-dip. It would not be terrible for the text to be changed from "attacks" to "abilities" or something to avoid the basic attack confusion.

I don't understand it; how do I know if something is a direct damage attack? Is it only damage from passives that counts as direct damage attacks?

Elsterchen · May 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Jabs itself is a channel / dot.

But it has a chance to proc “burning light” in the Templar passives, which is considered a direct damage attack.

As far as i figured the initial Hit of jabs is direct damage (proccing selene), the subsequent Hits are dots... the whole skill is a channel.

However, last time i tested (many patches ago) soulshine 5 piece bonus did not work with jabs

Soulshine Set

LEVEL 50 CHAMPION 160

(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka

(3 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical

(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage.

(5 items) Adds 450 Spell Damage to your cast time and channeled abilities.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

This cryptic BS has been going on since the beginning of time, sadly, and ZoS has yet to make the tooltips, or even better yet, an almanac to break down direct, indirect, DoT, Proc, AoE, Single Target, and Status effects. Then you have skills that have combinations of these.

There have been other threads about this, but tbh, these also assume that a skill is working as truly intended from patch to patch.

DD will typically be something that requires both a target (you have to choose who gets the damage, so splash doesn't count) and perform an action yourself (you cast a skill/spell, not your armor, not a glyph, not a passive.)

Because there are exceptions to every ZoS rule:

Your best bet in determining if something qualifies is to test while wearing Nerien'eth

If it procs a crystal, it's DD. If it doesn't (after several attempts), it is not.

Damage increases can come from so many places, you may not always catch which CP, skill, WTFever changed the damage. The lich crystal, however, does not lie. (Even if the tooltip flat out says "This skill will never be direct damage." If it procs the crystal, the game's own engine indicates it is.)

And don't feel one bit bad, OP. We shouldn't have to be guessing about this stuff four years into the game.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Wearing the Nerien'eth was a good suggestion to aid in figuring this out when testing, thanks. It's still amazing that we actually have to do this. I would think that it should be a trivial matter for ZOS to make a list of what constitutes what; instead of us having to test out all skills and abilities to figure out what they ZOS really mean with the words they are using.

Merlin13KAGL · May 2018

Yeah, as they should know.

An almanac...could even be a lorebook in game, listing all skills, all morphs and a nice neat little grid indicating what kind of categories they fall under.

They could even leave it to us to figure out which part was which, as long as you knew something did something somewhere.

(You can use Scathing Mage too, but 2 pc Monster is usually far easier to come by.)

MLGProPlayer · May 2018

Spacemonkey wrote: »

My understanding (and it may be wrong) was that direct damage was anything that wasnt a status damage (like a dot).

This is correct.

If damage is not a status effect, then it is direct damage. Even though Wall of Elements, for example, is a DoT, it is classified as direct damage by the game.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Yeah, as they should know.

An almanac...could even be a lorebook in game, listing all skills, all morphs and a nice neat little grid indicating what kind of categories they fall under.

They could even leave it to us to figure out which part was which, as long as you knew something did something somewhere.

(You can use Scathing Mage too, but 2 pc Monster is usually far easier to come by.)

Oh yes, a lorebook that told about this; could even be in several volumes, integrated in some nice stories. Great suggestion!. I don't think it's gonna happen sadly

MerlinPendragon · May 2018

A damage almanac would be awesome.

mesmerizedish · May 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Basic attacks get their damage boost from different CP stars. It would be dumb for them to double-dip. It would not be terrible for the text to be changed from "attacks" to "abilities" or something to avoid the basic attack confusion.

I don't understand it; how do I know if something is a direct damage attack? Is it only damage from passives that counts as direct damage attacks?

I don't understand why you think passives have anything to do with it.

Damage from status effects attached to the enemy (the status effect from searing strike, fiery breath, or lacerate, for example) is damage over time. Any other ability damage (including the initial hit from the aforementioned abilities) is direct damage.

Jayman1000 · May 2018

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

mesmerizedish wrote: »

Basic attacks get their damage boost from different CP stars. It would be dumb for them to double-dip. It would not be terrible for the text to be changed from "attacks" to "abilities" or something to avoid the basic attack confusion.

I don't understand it; how do I know if something is a direct damage attack? Is it only damage from passives that counts as direct damage attacks?

I don't understand why you think passives have anything to do with it.

Damage from status effects attached to the enemy (the status effect from searing strike, fiery breath, or lacerate, for example) is damage over time. Any other ability damage (including the initial hit from the aforementioned abilities) is direct damage.

Sorry I don't understand it either. It was just because you mention that passive from templar that, when it procced on jabs, was direct damage, but the rest of jabs wasn't. Which just didn't make sense to me. So I thought perhaps it was only passives?

Reflective lights doesn't benefit from +direct damage bonus (it didnt when I tested=, even though reflective light does a damage on hit. I understand why the dot doesn't benefit, but why doesn't the damage on hit qualify as a direct damage?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · May 2018

Ignore the color of the numbers. Get valkyn or nerienth.

Also keep in mind there are exceptions to the rules. Like dks flames of Oblivion, you activate the skill once but it does 4 different damage ticks, you would think that is a dot, as it does it's damage over time but nope, it is a direct damage skill and gets buffed by master at arm's.

In general there are 4 types of damage in the game. Single target, AOE, direct damage and damage over time. Skills are a combination of those four. For example, surprise attack is a single target, direct damage ablity. Jabs, or more precisely, punchering strikes and both it's morphs are AOE, damage over time. Impulse and whirling blades are direct damage AOE ablity. Some skills have more then one part to the damage, like reflective light, the initial three hits are AOE direct damage but the six second of damage after are considered single target damage over time.

On light or heavy attacks, yes they get buffed by thaumaturge or master at arm's and also the physical weapon expert or staff expert, depending on the type. Lightning staff heavys are 3 ticks of damage over time with the last pulse being direct damage. Restoring heavys are all damage over time. All other heavys are direct damage, even daul weilds 2 hits in a row. All light attacks are direct damage.

Also pro tip, do not trust tooltips. They are regularly incorrect.

KeiruNicrom · May 2018

Direct damage is opposite to DoTs i believe. So any "x damage every y seconds" or "z damage over v seconds" is not affected. I think ground aoe damage also doesnt work whether dot or not (ie fire rune initial damage)

Wreuntzylla · May 2018

It's a bonus to t-bag damage. Put 100 points in.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2018

I feel like they can add this to the tooltip like cost and radius you can have what attack type it is. This would be a-roundabout way to make sure all powers fall somewhere in a CP tree and we would better able to make builds that fully benefit from CP stars.

Aesthier · May 2018

Maybe ZoS themselves don't even remember anymore hence the difficulty in balancing skills or abilities when they don't even understand the damage types those things affect until they are actually in live.

Beardimus · May 2018

Someone tested all this with the CP stars changed. Unsure who

Summoning the maths gods @Asayre & @dpencil1 as they are bound to know!

phaneub17_ESO · May 2018

I honestly don't know jack about what does what damage, so my Champion points are pretty straight forward on every character regardless of what spells and abilities they actually have on their bars. I mainly focus one bar being AOE and ground effects while the other bar focused heavily on Single Target with Damage Over Time. Rather than trying to figure out every character's needs, my placement is a blanket selection.

All the casters have:
Thaumaturge - 72 (23%)
Piercing - 3 (to get Exploiter)
Master At Arms - 37 (15%)
Staff Expert - 8 (5%)
Elemental Expert - 75 (14%)
Elfborn - 37 (15%)
Blessed - 7 (2%)
Spell Erosion - 1 (for Arcane Well)

Stamina Characters are more simple with:
Mighty - 75 (14%)
Thaumaturge OR Precise Strikes (Crit heavy build) - 72 (23%)
Master At Arms - 37 (15%)
Physical Weapon Expert - 56 (28%)

dpencil1 · May 2018

The comments so far have pretty much answered the question. The premise is simply that any attack is not considered continuous is considered direct. A light attack, a skill that does a single hit of damage, or a damage proc from a source like an armor set all would generally be considered direct damage. A lightning/resto heavy attack, a skill that does multiple ticks of damage over time (dot), or a dot from an armor set would all generally be considered damage over time. Occasionally, there are qualities of both in one attack, like in the Lightning heavy attack, there is a final pulse that is calculated separately from the channel that precedes it. So the channel is a dot but the final burst is direct damage. Other skills may have an initial hit that is calculated separately from the remaining ticks. But on the whole, if you just make your decisions off of the general principle you'll be fine.