Discussion of gods: Aetherius, Trinimac, Baan dar and Mannimarco

Lyserus · May 2018

So, first we know that, each of the eight divines, aka known aedra, has its planet in the mundus. And the moons are believed to be Lorkhan. Now questions.

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）
2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?
3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?
4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?
5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

Horker · May 2018

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Roses are red, Violets are blue, Trinimac is dead, no beliefs for you.

Malacath is the only Daedra that cares for his followers! (Orcs)

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Malacath

AEAltadoonPadhome · May 2018

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

starkerealm · May 2018

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

Yeah, basically this. There's at least two dead aedra. In the case of Trinimac, he was converted from an Aedra into a Daedra. This isn't the only example of an Aedra becoming a Daedra. (Meridia is apparently able to switch between these roles at will.)

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that Baan Dar is another Aedra. Most of the time, the games focus on the Imperial pantheon, but there are a few others wandering around at the fringes. Some of those like Syrabane, Magnus, or Leki are probably real, but don't fit into the other pantheons. Others like Tu'whacca appear in different pantheons under different names. (Specifically, Tu'whacca is almost certainly Arkay and Xarxes.)

At that point, it's very likely that Baan Dar has his own realm. Actually, it's very probable that all of the Khajiiti gods have their own realms. Though it's possible some of them actually overlap with other religions.

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

So, Black Soul Gems are mentioned very rarely in ESO. The Necromancer's Moon wasn't created until the third era, so it doesn't exist in ESO. As far as I know, the only source of Black Soul Gems in the Second Era is in Cold Harbour, but the details are vague at best. There's only two Black Soul Gem references I know of. One is from Mannimarco himself, discussing the Soul Shriven, and the other one is correspondence between daedra regarding the shipment of black soul gems, though the bulk of the text is focused on the soul shriven being harvested, rather than the gems themselves.

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

I'll step back and discuss this for a second, because it's a, kind of critical, bit of insight, if you take Mankar Camoran at face value.

If you've never played Oblivion, when you get to the end, Mankar Camoran basically states that Nirn is Lorkhan's plane, and that the proper name for it is "Dawn's Beauty." With a major implication that everything in the games can be boiled down to different flavors of daedra. Including the stuff on Tamriel.

Thing is, there's some elements of truth in what he's saying. The distinction between the Aedra and Daedra isn't, entirely, concrete. At a slightly reductive level you could call them politically distinct factions. (And, yeah, that is being reductive.)

Also worth noting is that Lorkhan is, almost certainly, Shor. Which kinda blows holes in the Dawn's Beauty theory, since that would leave Lorkhan with two planes, or require Shor to actually be someone else. Also, the Tribunal have been deriving their power from licking Lorkhan's heart for centuries, which could be simply an aedric artifact infused with his power, or it could actually be a part of Lorkhan.

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

Yeah, it's really not clear what the Khajiiti gods are. They may simply be more aedra that aren't expressed in the other pantheons.

A few of them do. Lorkaj is Lorkhan, Alkosh is Akatosh, Khenarthi is Kynareth/Kyne, and S'rendarr is Stendarr. Which certainly leaves the door open for more of them to be "undocumented," Aedra.

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

This one can actually twist a bit further back into the topic of the Daedra. Specifically, Sithis is sometimes believed to be an alternate name for Padomay.

The first part is basically correct, Sithis as presented is a personification of chaos as an elemental force. The void is simply a space where nothing exists and nothing can exist. Slurp, gone. Into the void with you.

Except, it gets a little stranger. So, basically all of the Daedric/Aedric stuff comes back to elemental conflicts between Padomay and Anu. Anu is elemental order and stasis, while Padomay is a personification of chaos and change. Like all good creation myths there's an entire family tree here, involving Padomay's son, Lorkhan, and intermittently including either the Night Mother, or asserting that the Night Mother is actually Mephala as his consort/wife/something. (I think we're supposed to assume that Lorkhan would be the child of Padomay/Sithis and Nir (the goddess of creation), but... honestly, parsing this out is probably missing the point a bit.)

I mentioned the difference between the Aedra and the Daedra being political (though, religious may be a better word.) This is part of how that works out. The Daedra are attuned to Padomay, and are sometimes called Padomaic. The daedra can change things, never really make them directly, and they're supposed to be the result of Anu's blood mingling with Padomay's.

The Aedra are more the product of Anu, with less of Padomay's(?) (or potentially the product of Anu and Nir.) They can't really change things the way the Daedra can, but they can make things.

My inclination to answer the original question of, "can you have planes in the void?" is, no. Because once you create a plane in the void, it's no longer in the void, and becomes a new place excluded from it. The void is out there, it's anywhere that you find nothing. Sithis's domain is between the worlds, where nothing else exists. But, to be perfectly honest, we're getting into an area of TES's metaphysics I don't really bother sorting out.

Varana · May 2018

The difference between Aedra and Daedra is not in origin but in their role in creating the world (i.e. Nirn). Both were essentially the same kind of original spirits but the Aedra took part in the Creation and sacrificed parts of their power to bring the World about. They have, therefore, become mortal (like Lorkhan and Trinimac died) and subject to subtle changes over time through actions and veneration of (regular) mortal beings.

AlienSlof · May 2018

Mannimarco is not a god, he's just an ignominious corpse-herder.

Saturnana · May 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

Yeah, basically this. There's at least two dead aedra. In the case of Trinimac, he was converted from an Aedra into a Daedra. This isn't the only example of an Aedra becoming a Daedra. (Meridia is apparently able to switch between these roles at will.)

Like mentioned above, Trinimac was transformed (into Malacath) by Boethiah, along with his Altmer followers (who turned into what we now know as the Orsimer). I don't know if that would classify Trinimac as 'dead', though I think everyone would know what you're getting at by naming it as such. He didn't die technically speaking, but he doesn't exist any more either - not in his true form, at least.

As far as I know, Meridia was actually a Magna Ge who fled the creation of Nirn along with Magnus and several others. Though, she was eventually cast out of Aetherius by those same others for being on a very friendly basis with a couple of the Daedra (whom the Aedra did not like. At all).. At which point she took on the role of Daedric Prince herself and created her own realm in Oblivion. I don't think she switches between Aedra and Daedra. I'm assuming Magnus would make sure that Meridia couldn't just casually stroll back into Aetherius, which - to me - would probably mean taking away the 'thing' that made her 'Aedra' to begin with.

NoTimeToWait · May 2018

Lyserus wrote: »

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?
3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO?

The only time I encountered mention of Black soul gem was during main storyline in Skywatch, Auridon. The Vestige themselves only get a replica into their hands
Also, I suppose, there were black soul gems during beta test (when there were different types of soul gems for player to use), but can't remember it well, I might be wrong.

AEAltadoonPadhome · May 2018

As for Meridia, lots of theories exist, and the best IG source we have is this one: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Exegesis_of_Merid-Nunda

AlienSlof wrote: »

Mannimarco is not a god, he's just an ignominious corpse-herder.

He is arguably a god after the warp in the west (the events of TESII).

Lyserus wrote: »

A few of them do. Lorkaj is Lorkhan, Alkosh is Akatosh, Khenarthi is Kynareth/Kyne, and S'rendarr is Stendarr. Which certainly leaves the door open for more of them to be "undocumented," Aedra.

As for the different pantheons (shor vs lorkhan, kyne vs kynareth, etc.) it should be noted that these are physically different entities. They are the ancestor-spirits of the ancient Nords/Aldmer, respectively. Same holds for the Khajiit. These gods are cultural subgradients/echoes of the hypothetical/abstract Et'ada (original spirits), the common denominators (often called 'oversouls') of the often-shared deities between cultures. Their subgradients are separate, and often wage war against each other.
In fact, the nature of those different sub-gods is purely determined by their worshippers' beliefs. You could say that the difference between Alkosh, Akatosh, Auri-El, Tall Papa, etc. is an illusion, but that statement would ignore the fact that collective belief shapes reality.

All ancestor spirits are per definition Aedra. All non-ancestor spirits who did not take part in creation are per definition Daedra. For mortals turned into gods it gets trickier. Since they were not around at the moment of creation, they fall in neither category. Unless they retconned their own origin history while becoming gods, like Vivec did. If you become a god and can exist outside of time (Vivec describes this in some interview IIRC) you essentially have always existed.

I'd say Baan Dar and all those other gods not in the Eight are either ancestor spirits (Aedra) or those who ascended to godhood.

At that point, it's very likely that Baan Dar has his own realm.

It exists and is called the Five Finger Dance. It appears in ESO.

LittlePinkDot · May 2018

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

lihentian · May 2018

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac realm does exist, it is the same realm of Malacath, it is just like shivering Ilse. Also there is no such thing as Aedra, Aedra/Daedra only define if they have participate in the creation of nirn. every Aedra and Daedra have their own realm. Eg. Sovngrade is one of them.

Lyserus wrote: »

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Baan Dar Might be one of the aedra, but also he could be one of the daedra.. i have no clue. Since aedra and deadra are basically the same.. though not likely Baan Dar a Aedra, since most of the Aedra lost all their power in the creation of nirn.. Mannimarco on the ohter hand is a Mer...he is a creation of the Aedra. he was believe to achieve godhood.. but he did not participate in the creation of nirn.. just like talos

Lyserus wrote: »

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

mannimarco aid in the creation of the black soul gem, n

Lyserus wrote: »

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Lyserus wrote: »

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

Yes, When a brotherhood member die, or when they slay their opponent, they sent their soul to sithis. in Skyrim you were able to summon the spirit of Lucien Lachance. therefor there must be a void plane or some sort...

starkerealm · May 2018

lihentian wrote: »

Yes, When a brotherhood member die, or when they slay their opponent, they sent their soul to sithis. in Skyrim you were able to summon the spirit of Lucien Lachance. therefor there must be a void plane or some sort...

To be fair, it's entirely possible he's been being held in the Spiral Skein. Though this only makes sense if you run with the idea that the Night Mother is an aspect of Mephala.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2018

lnsane wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

Yeah, basically this. There's at least two dead aedra. In the case of Trinimac, he was converted from an Aedra into a Daedra. This isn't the only example of an Aedra becoming a Daedra. (Meridia is apparently able to switch between these roles at will.)

Like mentioned above, Trinimac was transformed (into Malacath) by Boethiah, along with his Altmer followers (who turned into what we now know as the Orsimer). I don't know if that would classify Trinimac as 'dead', though I think everyone would know what you're getting at by naming it as such. He didn't die technically speaking, but he doesn't exist any more either - not in his true form, at least.

As far as I know, Meridia was actually a Magna Ge who fled the creation of Nirn along with Magnus and several others. Though, she was eventually cast out of Aetherius by those same others for being on a very friendly basis with a couple of the Daedra (whom the Aedra did not like. At all).. At which point she took on the role of Daedric Prince herself and created her own realm in Oblivion. I don't think she switches between Aedra and Daedra. I'm assuming Magnus would make sure that Meridia couldn't just casually stroll back into Aetherius, which - to me - would probably mean taking away the 'thing' that made her 'Aedra' to begin with.

I've never read anything like that regarding Meridia. Its my understanding that she is waging a war with the Daedra and commanding space within their sphere by bending light from aetherius to tear holes into the daedric planes. I see Meridia more as a crusader type although there is clearly something 'wrong' about her as she has something to do with Azura and Sheogorath. Interestingly enough however, Azura and Sheogorath don't seem to be bent on destroying life like the other daedra (I exclude Malacath as well because he is a strange case). Meridia is responsible for the likes of Umaril the Unfeathered. This makes her somewhat suspect as far as I'm concerned, but I have my own theories about Elven origins that tend to take a dim view of most of their past. I suspect something most foul went on in early elven history and is deeply rooted with the Daedra.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2018

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Lorkhan is in Sovngarde ergo Not Daedra. His wife is Kyne/Kynareth/Khenarthi, an Aedra. I also suspect Akatosh is the result of the clash between Auriel and Shor and I argue that Akatosh is both of them, Time and Matter united.

Shezzarrine · May 2018

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

This is generally how I view it as well.

I also think the battle between Auriel and Shor essentially annihilated them both and made something new (Space-Time Akatosh) that allowed Nirn to be. The elves hold firm to their beliefs, but ultimately they are very prideful. The Altmer are essentially intellect without wisdom, on the whole.

ExcaliburESO · May 2018

Not Mannimarco its Minimarco!

TheNuminous1 · May 2018

This whole thread has given some insight to different peoples grasp on lore. Some intellectual responses. Others not so much, but trying.

LittlePinkDot · May 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

Graydon · May 2018

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Yes please! The forums are ruined and unusable until this happens! So first things first.

The mods will be sure to thank you for telling them how to do their job.

Shezzarrine · May 2018

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

TheShadowScout · May 2018

Lyserus wrote: »

So, first we know that, each of the eight divines, aka known aedra, has its planet in the mundus. And the moons are believed to be Lorkhan. Now questions.

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is not dead, merely... transformed into Malacath. Which may or may not mean that trinimac is still an aspect of malacath, it might be somewhat similar to Jyggalag and Sheogorath... thus it stands to reason that if trinimac had a planet, it fell into oblivion and became the ashlands, yes?

Lyserus wrote: »

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Baan dar was never mentioned as aedra, and thus most likely is some formerly mortal hero come into some sort of power and worshipped as god, much like the Wilderking/queen...

Lyserus wrote: »

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

At this ESO point in time, Mannimarco is a mortal necromancer with delusions of godhood.
Nothing more.
At some point several centuries in the future, he will be worshipped as diety, which he may or may not have achieved - the lore is a little bit unclear at this point (thanks to a dragon break being involved, warp of the west and all that...). Though most sources believe he actually did it, so...

Soul gems are in ESO, yet there is no distinction between those and "black" soul gems - all can trap humanoid souls, though one could argue that -might- be a side effect of the soulburst and the curently inactive dragonfires... once those protections are restored by Talos, it might be that black soul gems will be invented to get around them.

Lyserus wrote: »

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Who is to say that those are not all parts of aetherius anyhow?

Although, the Magna Ge are generally considered those who left with Magnus weay back when during the creation of the mundus, and not everyone else who later joined them in aetherius, so its a bit more iffy to call those people that. Same with aedra, that name is reserved for those who gave their essence to crerate the mundus, and daedra are those who did not.

Who is to say those have to be one of those three categories tho? Talos may be some mortal who ascended to divinity, or not, but that does not make him aedra, or magna-ge, or a daedric prince - merely the ninth divine (and people can argue if there is actual power behind that, or if its just an ideal worshipped)

Lyserus wrote: »

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the void. It is the epitome of nothingness. It is the darkness in between the stars.

For further information, and a great deal of visual goodieness, I would suggest taking a look at: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/194676/visualization-of-the-pantheon-of-the-elder-scrolls-final-version-uploaded-d
It may be old, but the overview grafic is super-nifty!

starkerealm · May 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

lnsane wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

Yeah, basically this. There's at least two dead aedra. In the case of Trinimac, he was converted from an Aedra into a Daedra. This isn't the only example of an Aedra becoming a Daedra. (Meridia is apparently able to switch between these roles at will.)

Like mentioned above, Trinimac was transformed (into Malacath) by Boethiah, along with his Altmer followers (who turned into what we now know as the Orsimer). I don't know if that would classify Trinimac as 'dead', though I think everyone would know what you're getting at by naming it as such. He didn't die technically speaking, but he doesn't exist any more either - not in his true form, at least.

As far as I know, Meridia was actually a Magna Ge who fled the creation of Nirn along with Magnus and several others. Though, she was eventually cast out of Aetherius by those same others for being on a very friendly basis with a couple of the Daedra (whom the Aedra did not like. At all).. At which point she took on the role of Daedric Prince herself and created her own realm in Oblivion. I don't think she switches between Aedra and Daedra. I'm assuming Magnus would make sure that Meridia couldn't just casually stroll back into Aetherius, which - to me - would probably mean taking away the 'thing' that made her 'Aedra' to begin with.

I've never read anything like that regarding Meridia. Its my understanding that she is waging a war with the Daedra and commanding space within their sphere by bending light from aetherius to tear holes into the daedric planes. I see Meridia more as a crusader type although there is clearly something 'wrong' about her as she has something to do with Azura and Sheogorath. Interestingly enough however, Azura and Sheogorath don't seem to be bent on destroying life like the other daedra (I exclude Malacath as well because he is a strange case). Meridia is responsible for the likes of Umaril the Unfeathered. This makes her somewhat suspect as far as I'm concerned, but I have my own theories about Elven origins that tend to take a dim view of most of their past. I suspect something most foul went on in early elven history and is deeply rooted with the Daedra.

Meridia is a complex subject. The simple explanation is the bit about her being one of the Magna Ge. The basic idea is that she transitions between being an Aedra and a Daedra at will. There are some explanations for this, but, really, it boils down to, she can be whichever she wants. How and why she does this are somewhat beside the point, and might not be entirely accurate.

I'm going to step back a minute and just phrase it this way: It doesn't really matter how Meridia is able to be both a Divine and a Prince. She is one, or the other, depending on the situation. It's probably her choice at the moment.

Now, the funny thing is, being a daedra or a divine are fundamentally different natures of being.

The Daedra cannot create. They can destroy, they can change, they can transform things, but they cannot create something new. Even their realms are (at least in part) an extension of themselves. This also includes their artifacts. The daedric artifacts are literally part of the associated Prince.

If you ever played Oblivion you came face to face with this in the main quest. When you need the blood of a Daedra, any artifact will do.

The Aedra can create, but, generally speaking, they can't change things. They make new planes (including Nirn), but once those places have been created, they continue to exist, even if the Aedra creating them ceases to be. Again, Lorkhan is gone, but Tamriel remains. (Or Lorkhan became Shor, or always was Shor, and simply went into hiding.)

Also going back to the Oblivion main quest, it's worth remembering that Martin sends you to find a mortal memento of Tiber Septum rather than sending you after one of the Aedric artifacts (none of them appear in Oblivion, but several do exist, including Auriel's Bow and Stendarr's Hammer.) The goal is to obtain "the blood of a divine," but their artifacts won't provide that because they're not, literally, part of the divine, the way daedric artifacts are.

If the bit with Meridia is confusing, don't worry, I'm pretty sure that's intentional. My impression is that the information available doesn't really explain what's going on "behind the curtain," with the character. That's actually true of most of the Princes and Divines, but it's especially visible here.

Menelaos · May 2018

I seem to recall that Azura was a Magna Ge once, the same as Meridia. But I can't locate the source of that, does anybody have some info on that?

Varana · May 2018

An important aspect to keep in mind is that most bits of information in TES lore are the view of a particular in-world author or people, not necessarily "objective fact".
Some accounts describe the Creation in very philosophical terms, as the world emanating from the Aedra who are transformed in the process - in that, it draws many inspirations from later Neoplatonism, including the reincarnation bit.
Other accounts paint the Creation in more traditional religious terms, with gods fighting and marrying and having children, and with a clearer distinction between "good" and "evil" gods.
The various accounts may contradict each other, and that's intentional. There is no unified cosmology.

LittlePinkDot · May 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

Its not as simple as limitations. Take for example the genocide that happened in shadowfen, theres no excuse for it.
And obviously the divines must understand joy in order to create a world for the purpose of joy.
If you dont understand something or know it exists then how can you create it?
If you cannot keep your memories from one life to the next, then creation and rebirth is nothing but a trap.
Extinction would be preferable if theres somewhere you can go (aetherius) thats better.
Even if an asteroid or something were coming to destroy the whole planet, who cares? Theres somewhere else thats better anyway, might as well have just let Molag Bal have it. Good riddance.

Shezzarrine · May 2018

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

Its not as simple as limitations. Take for example the genocide that happened in shadowfen, theres no excuse for it.
And obviously the divines must understand joy in order to create a world for the purpose of joy.
If you dont understand something or know it exists then how can you create it?
If you cannot keep your memories from one life to the next, then creation and rebirth is nothing but a trap.
Extinction would be preferable if theres somewhere you can go (aetherius) thats better.
Even if an asteroid or something were coming to destroy the whole planet, who cares? Theres somewhere else thats better anyway, might as well have just let Molag Bal have it. Good riddance.

You're missing the point, Lorkhan knew it existed and thus created the mortal plane to have the ability to show others. The others weren't trying to create joy, they were just following Lorkhan, joy arose out of the mortality that the plane imposed. Besides each individual soul (besides Argonians) is accually a fragment of a spirit that took place in the creation of Nirn, once they lost the majority of their power in creation many could not continue without "reproducing" and gradually fragmenting themselves. This is why the Altmer worship their Ancestors and believe they are decended from gods, because their souls are litterally fragments of gods.

Something else to remember is that the divines had no real idea what they were doing, they had no emotions untill their power started to wane. You cannot have happiness when you are limitless. If you have never been without how can you truely appreciate what you have. And your point of view is very similar to that of the elven point of view, they quite literally view the mortal plane as a trap. That is the reason the Thalmor have been looking for objects of great power, such as the eye of Magnus in Skyrim, because they quite simply want to destroy the mortal plane in hopes it frees the spirits that created it and gives them their divinity back. Elves view it as a trap, humans view it as a test. That is the fundamental division between them and everything can pretty much be traced back to that division.

Also, I fail to see how genocide relates to this at all?

Saturnana · May 2018

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

Its not as simple as limitations. Take for example the genocide that happened in shadowfen, theres no excuse for it.
And obviously the divines must understand joy in order to create a world for the purpose of joy.
If you dont understand something or know it exists then how can you create it?
If you cannot keep your memories from one life to the next, then creation and rebirth is nothing but a trap.
Extinction would be preferable if theres somewhere you can go (aetherius) thats better.
Even if an asteroid or something were coming to destroy the whole planet, who cares? Theres somewhere else thats better anyway, might as well have just let Molag Bal have it. Good riddance.

In 1879, Russian chemist Constantin Fahlburg forgot to wash his hands after a spending a day combining coal tar with several chemicals. When he came home, he noticed that his fingers tasted sweet - he'd accidentally discovered saccharin, an artificial sweetener.

English pharmacist John Walker attempted to scratch off a lump of dirt that had gathered at the end of a stick with which he was mixing a bunch of chemicals, in 1827. The scratching ignited the lump, accidentally giving him a modern match.

Ninth-century Chinese alchemists accidentally discovered gunpowder while trying to create the elixir of eternal life.

And arguably the most famous of all; Sir Alexander Fleming went on vacation after doing some sloppy influenza experiments in 1928 and came back to find his samples contaminated by mold. Lucky for us, he happened to notice that bacteria weren't able to grow anywhere near the mold, and he changed the medical field forever by accidentally discovering penicillin.

Just goes to show how many things were created that we didn't even knew existed.
Accidents happen, I'm sure the Divines had them too.

LittlePinkDot · May 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

Its not as simple as limitations. Take for example the genocide that happened in shadowfen, theres no excuse for it.
And obviously the divines must understand joy in order to create a world for the purpose of joy.
If you dont understand something or know it exists then how can you create it?
If you cannot keep your memories from one life to the next, then creation and rebirth is nothing but a trap.
Extinction would be preferable if theres somewhere you can go (aetherius) thats better.
Even if an asteroid or something were coming to destroy the whole planet, who cares? Theres somewhere else thats better anyway, might as well have just let Molag Bal have it. Good riddance.

You're missing the point, Lorkhan knew it existed and thus created the mortal plane to have the ability to show others. The others weren't trying to create joy, they were just following Lorkhan, joy arose out of the mortality that the plane imposed. Besides each individual soul (besides Argonians) is accually a fragment of a spirit that took place in the creation of Nirn, once they lost the majority of their power in creation many could not continue without "reproducing" and gradually fragmenting themselves. This is why the Altmer worship their Ancestors and believe they are decended from gods, because their souls are litterally fragments of gods.

Something else to remember is that the divines had no real idea what they were doing, they had no emotions untill their power started to wane. You cannot have happiness when you are limitless. If you have never been without how can you truely appreciate what you have. And your point of view is very similar to that of the elven point of view, they quite literally view the mortal plane as a trap. That is the reason the Thalmor have been looking for objects of great power, such as the eye of Magnus in Skyrim, because they quite simply want to destroy the mortal plane in hopes it frees the spirits that created it and gives them their divinity back. Elves view it as a trap, humans view it as a test. That is the fundamental division between them and everything can pretty much be traced back to that division.

Also, I fail to see how genocide relates to this at all?

How genocide relates? Because its an example of how the creation has just created misery. War, starvation. All of it. Lorkhan failed.
And hapiness isnt something outside of yourself. Its internal, its a CHOICE. If you choose to be happy then you are happy. But you know what doesnt make anyone happy? All of the horrors I explained above.
The horrors in Tamriel are real, but the idea that the purpose of mortality is joy is just what people would tell themselves to make themselves feel better amongst all the horrors they witness. Theres no evidence in Tamriel that Lorkhan was trying to create joy. Its just stories on paper. Meanwhile the horrors are whats actually real.

Im a nihilist and I can be happy because I choose to be. There doesnt need to be some grand purpose.

Shezzarrine · May 2018

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

Its not as simple as limitations. Take for example the genocide that happened in shadowfen, theres no excuse for it.
And obviously the divines must understand joy in order to create a world for the purpose of joy.
If you dont understand something or know it exists then how can you create it?
If you cannot keep your memories from one life to the next, then creation and rebirth is nothing but a trap.
Extinction would be preferable if theres somewhere you can go (aetherius) thats better.
Even if an asteroid or something were coming to destroy the whole planet, who cares? Theres somewhere else thats better anyway, might as well have just let Molag Bal have it. Good riddance.

You're missing the point, Lorkhan knew it existed and thus created the mortal plane to have the ability to show others. The others weren't trying to create joy, they were just following Lorkhan, joy arose out of the mortality that the plane imposed. Besides each individual soul (besides Argonians) is accually a fragment of a spirit that took place in the creation of Nirn, once they lost the majority of their power in creation many could not continue without "reproducing" and gradually fragmenting themselves. This is why the Altmer worship their Ancestors and believe they are decended from gods, because their souls are litterally fragments of gods.

Something else to remember is that the divines had no real idea what they were doing, they had no emotions untill their power started to wane. You cannot have happiness when you are limitless. If you have never been without how can you truely appreciate what you have. And your point of view is very similar to that of the elven point of view, they quite literally view the mortal plane as a trap. That is the reason the Thalmor have been looking for objects of great power, such as the eye of Magnus in Skyrim, because they quite simply want to destroy the mortal plane in hopes it frees the spirits that created it and gives them their divinity back. Elves view it as a trap, humans view it as a test. That is the fundamental division between them and everything can pretty much be traced back to that division.

Also, I fail to see how genocide relates to this at all?

How genocide relates? Because its an example of how the creation has just created misery. War, starvation. All of it. Lorkhan failed.
And hapiness isnt something outside of yourself. Its internal, its a CHOICE. If you choose to be happy then you are happy. But you know what doesnt make anyone happy? All of the horrors I explained above.
The horrors in Tamriel are real, but the idea that the purpose of mortality is joy is just what people would tell themselves to make themselves feel better amongst all the horrors they witness. Theres no evidence in Tamriel that Lorkhan was trying to create joy. Its just stories on paper. Meanwhile the horrors are whats actually real.

Im a nihilist and I can be happy because I choose to be. There doesnt need to be some grand purpose.

Again, tell me how happiness can exist when you are limitless and everyone is limitless, you have not said that. It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that it CAN'T exist. You can't simply tell yourself you're happy if happiness as a concept doesn't exist. And once again, misery and joy are two sides of the same coin. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about that. Just like the book "The Giver" you either have no emotions, no joy, no suffering or all of it.

"Only the horrors are real," so Tamriel doesn't have art? Does it not have love, companionship, and those who simply love life? Does it not have the little things that cause joy? You are only seeing what you want to see.

And no, Lorkhan did not fail, not as long as any mortal ascended. Which has happened.

And it's all just words on paper, it doesn't matter what you think of the lore, it is that it is.

Edit to include this: One important piece evidence of Lorkhan's intentions is when he tried and failed (purposely) to achieve CHIM so he could show the way. You could say that's just a "story on paper" but then where does knowledge of CHIM come from? How could he fail if he is the one with the knowledge of it?

LittlePinkDot · May 2018

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Shezzarrine wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

First of all, can some mod move this thread to the Lore subforums?

Lyserus wrote: »

1.Are there records of planet of Trinimac? Is he the only known “dead aedra”, or was he just an “earth bone” like Y'ffre ? （especially since he walked among mortals?）

Trinimac is dead. He never had an aedric planet in the current Wheel, and if he had, it might be taken over by another (one theory says Arkay took his place). Currently he owns a Daedric plane named the Ashpit, and he is known under the name of Malacath.

2. The only mundus planets not included in the eight and moons are Five Fingers and Necromancers moon. so are Baan Dar and Mannimarco “aedra-ish”? We are know Mannimarco, but was Baan Dar an original aedra and help created mundus?

Mannimarco is not an Aedra or Daedra, rather a Man who made himself a god in the TES2: Daggerfall storyline. Perhaps you could compare him to the Tribunal rather than the Eight.
Baan dar? No idea. He is the rogue plane and a god specific to the Khajiit and Bosmeri pantheons. Probably a demi-god or another mortal who achieved apotheosis.

3. Are there mentions of necromancers moon and black soul gem in ESO? If not can we concluded that they are indeed created by mannimarco?

I haven't noticed any mentions in ESO, but I might be wrong. But since Mannimarco has not become a god yet in ESO, I suppose he used his godlike powers to create the Necromancer's moon in order to eclipse the planet Arkay during that time of the year.

4. Far Shore, Sovengarde and Sands behind the stars are believed to be places where dead ppl （redguard, nord and khajiit）go. We visited Sovengarde and almost visited Far Shore. So do ppl go to aetherius after they die? And are Shor （maybe = Talos）, Sektsomething and Riddle Thar Magna Ge （since they are in Aetherius）, Aedra （since most ppl believed so）or Daedra （They have planets but are not visible as stars since they are not stated to be in the castellans, fits daedra's Oblivion planets description）?

Aetherius is not a permanent afterlife. It is a waiting place where normal souls (those which did not achieve godhood or were claimed by others like Daedra) go. There, they are in wait to be recycled in the Dreamsleeve, and then reborn. Yes, reincarnation is a thing in TES. To quote Vehk: "Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE". So the spirits' AE (their essence) is in some sense annihilated in such a way that the souls can be recycled.

Some Aedra fled to Aetherius after the creation of the Mundus. That does not make them Magne Ge. Magne Ge are thought to be the children of Magnus, who, like him, withdrew themselves from creation and fled Mundus before they could be sacrificed in order to finish Mundus like the Aedra. They fled Mundus to Aetherius through Oblivion, and by doing so tore holes in Oblivion which became the stars.

Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan. He is an Aedra (or a Daedra if you believe Mankar Camoran) who created the mortal plane.

Riddle'thar is a personification of the Khajiit Lifestyle. If you ask me (though this is speculative) his powers (incarnations) are the product of Mythopoeia through Khajiiti Faith. It is not an Aedra/Daedra (or as the Khajiit say, not a child of Ahnurr and Fadomai)

5. We saw sithis in dark brotherhood line, so are there actually planes in void?

The void is the emptyness in which the universe lies. So yes, all planes are technically in the void. The void is a metaphor of this metaphysical nothingness and Sithis is the personification of that metaphor. The beliefs of the DB are largely based off the Argonians' veneration of Sithis, which hold that souls "go around, follow the river, and when they die go back to Sithis", where back to Sithis can be seen as being annihiliated into nothingness, and Sithis is again the personification of this nothingness. Even the Argonians hold that Life and Death are a cycle just like the Water in the River reaches the sea, becomes clouds, rain down into the river again, rinse and repeat.

I think Lorkhan is a Daedra, he came from sithis via padomay.

As for the dreamsleeve. There is no attaining Godhood if you have to lose your memories after every life, at least for the majority. Nirn would be nothing but a pointless trap. If everyone on Nirn is already part of the dream of the godhead then the godhead could just dream that all know chim instead of forcing everyone to repeat the same pointless cycle. Its sado-masochistic.
Theres no point or meaning to the creation other than as enertainment for the godhead at the expense of everyones ignorance and suffering.

Not necessarily true, I personally believe the human perspective of Lorkhan's reasons for his part in creation. The whole point of creation is that he realized there can be no true joy or understanding of happiness if every spirit was unlimited and that joy and happiness can only come if you know limitation. So the whole plane is a sort of place for mortals to ascend and know the joy and happiness of surpassing their limitations.

This is at least how I interpret it.

Thats cliche. I fail to see how ignorance and suffering create joy.

How can you be happy if you have never had limitations? It's similar to the concepts of good and evil, one cannot exist without the other. Happiness and suffering. Duality is a core concept in the metaphysical lore

Its not as simple as limitations. Take for example the genocide that happened in shadowfen, theres no excuse for it.
And obviously the divines must understand joy in order to create a world for the purpose of joy.
If you dont understand something or know it exists then how can you create it?
If you cannot keep your memories from one life to the next, then creation and rebirth is nothing but a trap.
Extinction would be preferable if theres somewhere you can go (aetherius) thats better.
Even if an asteroid or something were coming to destroy the whole planet, who cares? Theres somewhere else thats better anyway, might as well have just let Molag Bal have it. Good riddance.

You're missing the point, Lorkhan knew it existed and thus created the mortal plane to have the ability to show others. The others weren't trying to create joy, they were just following Lorkhan, joy arose out of the mortality that the plane imposed. Besides each individual soul (besides Argonians) is accually a fragment of a spirit that took place in the creation of Nirn, once they lost the majority of their power in creation many could not continue without "reproducing" and gradually fragmenting themselves. This is why the Altmer worship their Ancestors and believe they are decended from gods, because their souls are litterally fragments of gods.

Something else to remember is that the divines had no real idea what they were doing, they had no emotions untill their power started to wane. You cannot have happiness when you are limitless. If you have never been without how can you truely appreciate what you have. And your point of view is very similar to that of the elven point of view, they quite literally view the mortal plane as a trap. That is the reason the Thalmor have been looking for objects of great power, such as the eye of Magnus in Skyrim, because they quite simply want to destroy the mortal plane in hopes it frees the spirits that created it and gives them their divinity back. Elves view it as a trap, humans view it as a test. That is the fundamental division between them and everything can pretty much be traced back to that division.

Also, I fail to see how genocide relates to this at all?

How genocide relates? Because its an example of how the creation has just created misery. War, starvation. All of it. Lorkhan failed.
And hapiness isnt something outside of yourself. Its internal, its a CHOICE. If you choose to be happy then you are happy. But you know what doesnt make anyone happy? All of the horrors I explained above.
The horrors in Tamriel are real, but the idea that the purpose of mortality is joy is just what people would tell themselves to make themselves feel better amongst all the horrors they witness. Theres no evidence in Tamriel that Lorkhan was trying to create joy. Its just stories on paper. Meanwhile the horrors are whats actually real.

Im a nihilist and I can be happy because I choose to be. There doesnt need to be some grand purpose.

Again, tell me how happiness can exist when you are limitless and everyone is limitless, you have not said that. It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that it CAN'T exist. You can't simply tell yourself you're happy if happiness as a concept doesn't exist. And once again, misery and joy are two sides of the same coin. I don't understand what is so hard to grasp about that. Just like the book "The Giver" you either have no emotions, no joy, no suffering or all of it.

"Only the horrors are real," so Tamriel doesn't have art? Does it not have love, companionship, and those who simply love life? Does it not have the little things that cause joy? You are only seeing what you want to see.

And no, Lorkhan did not fail, not as long as any mortal ascended. Which has happened.

And it's all just words on paper, it doesn't matter what you think of the lore, it is that it is.

Edit to include this: One important piece evidence of Lorkhan's intentions is when he tried and failed (purposely) to achieve CHIM so he could show the way. You could say that's just a "story on paper" but then where does knowledge of CHIM come from? How could he fail if he is the one with the knowledge of it?

Theres no proof that you cannot be happy and be limitless. You're just making an assumption just as much as I am making the assumption that you can be happy while limitless.

It just sounds like you think joy is only created through these things you've described which are nothing more the neurotransmitters in the brain like dopamine and oxycotin.

And if godhood realization is the purpose then everyone should keep their memories from each life time. If they had got close in one life, it would make sense to be able to continue from where you left off. Its sadistic.