These Dawnbreakers...

Raudgrani · May 2018

I'm not calling for any "nerfs" or whatever. But it's starting to become really old, having like 2-3 Dawnbreakers on your death recap every time you die. A while back, it was Eye of Flame, but that stopped for whatever reason. Now it's all Dawnbreaker, with a touch of Steel Tornado. Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

How do you best counter this ultimate? It's really fast, so you hardly have any time to react and block or try to roll dodge or whatever, suddenly you just can't move and then you're dead. It seems kind of glitched as well, the reach should be like 10 meters - but I know I've been just a couple of meters into a keep, and had some guys running down from the stairs of the back flag, suddenly I can't move and *poow*, I'm dead.
Where do you invest champion points to decrease this damage, I mean the skill itself hits for about 5-6k, and then there's usually a couple of dot ticks of an equal amount that does the job. The reach makes it kind of hard to dodge too, I know I've rolldodged forward sometimes, and seemingly successfully dodged the attack, but the problem is to even be able of having the time to do so.

Some of my toons are vampires, more specifically the nightblade ones. That's only for the sneak bonus, but it sure hits harder then. I can't imagine playing NB without vampire, the agonizing slow sneak would drive me completely nuts. LOL On my werewolves, I usually don't die because of just a couple of dawnbreakers, so the problem isn't that bad on those toons.

SilasMurder · May 2018

I agree. Only time I die in pvp is to a damn dawnbreaker on vamp characters. Immovable pots to avoid the cc from the initial bust and dodge roll. If you are 1vx you got to kite them around. Yeah, it’s what pvp is atm. Only way to avoid the problem is avoid being undead. Hope you like crafting potions if that’s the route you go.

Raudgrani · May 2018

SilasMurder wrote: »

I agree. Only time I die in pvp is to a damn dawnbreaker on vamp characters. Immovable pots to avoid the cc from the initial bust and dodge roll. If you are 1vx you got to kite them around. Yeah, it’s what pvp is atm. Only way to avoid the problem is avoid being undead. Hope you like crafting potions if that’s the route you go.

All evil shall eventually pass hahaha... But yeah, it's getting tiresome to see the same skill on the death recap every time. People are so trend sensitive, it's always all about one ultimate. I almost got tears of joy on my eyes last night, when I was being onslaught ganked while packing up a trebuchet! LOL

In fights, I run Immovable/M. Enducance/M. Savagery pots like 24/7 on my werewolves, might be part of the explanation why I go through them way better on my ww's. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll actually try it next time on Cyrodiil.

Beardimus · May 2018

I think part of the increase is cos loads of Magika builds run it, especially sorcs as out Ults dont cut it. It's a go too for Stam & Magika alike.

Will only get worse with U18 empower changes

Syncronaut · May 2018

If you need to sneak just use Night's Silence. (if you play stamblade)

Dawnbreaker weakness in pvp is simply not worth it.
When summerset is out you can combine it with another set (2 piece for monster set, 5 for damage set and 5 for night)

And it only needs 2 traits to research.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Syncronaut wrote: »

If you need to sneak just use Night's Silence. (if you play stamblade)

Dawnbreaker weakness in pvp is simply not worth it.
When summerset is out you can combine it with another set (2 piece for monster set, 5 for damage set and 5 for night)

And it only needs 2 traits to research.

Know I could, but I feel it's too much to give up an entire set just to sneak faster. I want to kill as well, not just survive and move faster. ;-)

Lexxypwns · May 2018

You can block the CC.

To counter DB you have to be proactive, if your opponent has a DBoS ready then you need to watch your health closely and not fall into dangerous levels of health OR pop an immovable pot.

Not being able to CC you shortens the burst window by a significant margin or eliminates it completely

Syncronaut · May 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You can block the CC.

To counter DB you have to be proactive, if your opponent has a DBoS ready then you need to watch your health closely and not fall into dangerous levels of health OR pop an immovable pot.

Not being able to CC you shortens the burst window by a significant margin or eliminates it completely

Putting some points into cheaper rolls also works. If you are low, just roll araund them and they will miss.
(if you use a trap set -- even better)

Maulkin · May 2018

It's because many classes don't have a good, cheap, dmg+CC ult for PVP. Apart from Incap and Dragon Leap, the rest are completely meh.

StamSorc, Stamden, Stamplar and MagPlar use it religiously. The others maybe use Meteor or Soul Assault if they're playing a ranged build or also resort to DBoS.

ak_pvp · May 2018

Its basically the go to ult for most classes. Instant, stuns, high damage+dot, AoE, decent price. Both wardens, 99% of templars and both sorcs use it. Even some StamDKs do.

umagon · May 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

I'm not calling for any "nerfs" or whatever. But it's starting to become really old, having like 2-3 Dawnbreakers on your death recap every time you die. A while back, it was Eye of Flame, but that stopped for whatever reason. Now it's all Dawnbreaker, with a touch of Steel Tornado. Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

How do you best counter this ultimate? It's really fast, so you hardly have any time to react and block or try to roll dodge or whatever, suddenly you just can't move and then you're dead. It seems kind of glitched as well, the reach should be like 10 meters - but I know I've been just a couple of meters into a keep, and had some guys running down from the stairs of the back flag, suddenly I can't move and *poow*, I'm dead.
Where do you invest champion points to decrease this damage, I mean the skill itself hits for about 5-6k, and then there's usually a couple of dot ticks of an equal amount that does the job. The reach makes it kind of hard to dodge too, I know I've rolldodged forward sometimes, and seemingly successfully dodged the attack, but the problem is to even be able of having the time to do so.

Some of my toons are vampires, more specifically the nightblade ones. That's only for the sneak bonus, but it sure hits harder then. I can't imagine playing NB without vampire, the agonizing slow sneak would drive me completely nuts. LOL On my werewolves, I usually don't die because of just a couple of dawnbreakers, so the problem isn't that bad on those toons.

A lot of burst builds rely on critical damage. You can not do much to lower other players critical chance or forced criticals but what you can do is lower the damage. What you need to first do is determine which build your opponents are using and figure out how much additive damage they are getting from criticals. Once you know this then increase your critical resistance percentage past that point. This will make their attacks never higher than normal damage. From there you can control how much additional defense you want. You will be surprised how much more survivability you have once you push incoming critical damage off the table so to speak.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

It's because many classes don't have a good, cheap, dmg+CC ult for PVP. Apart from Incap and Dragon Leap, the rest are completely meh.

StamSorc, Stamden, Stamplar and MagPlar use it religiously. The others maybe use Meteor or Soul Assault if they're playing a ranged build or also resort to DBoS.

Yeah, Meteor I'm completely fine with. I use it a lot myself, and there's loads of time to prepare for the impact. Unless you have no stamina at all to block, or if you are feared or knocked down, it's a shame being nailed by Meteor. I mostly use it against zerglings myself, using my magblade. Buff up in all ways possible and drop it into a crowd, usually the ulti is nearly back up after that.
What I dislike about Dawnbreaker, is that you suddenly can't move and then: Dead. I find it kind of hard to see it coming, it's rather damn fast and the animation is like instant. :-/ If it wasn't for the stun, it would be pretty ok I guess. As someone said, Immovable pots might be the key to start getting through them, right now I feel pretty helpless against them.

Lexxypwns · May 2018

Syncronaut wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You can block the CC.

To counter DB you have to be proactive, if your opponent has a DBoS ready then you need to watch your health closely and not fall into dangerous levels of health OR pop an immovable pot.

Not being able to CC you shortens the burst window by a significant margin or eliminates it completely

Putting some points into cheaper rolls also works. If you are low, just roll araund them and they will miss.
(if you use a trap set -- even better)

You can only effectively use dodge roll to avoid a DB on console, on pc it is much easier to aim.

Also, @Raudgrani meteor is the most buggy ult in the game. I routinely have the circle render late and since Dragon Bones launched it will randomly decide to ignore block and CC anyway. Plus, if it hits a group of players only 1 has to not be blocking for them all to get CC’ed and there’s the rubber banding that occurs open world.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Syncronaut wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You can block the CC.

To counter DB you have to be proactive, if your opponent has a DBoS ready then you need to watch your health closely and not fall into dangerous levels of health OR pop an immovable pot.

Not being able to CC you shortens the burst window by a significant margin or eliminates it completely

Putting some points into cheaper rolls also works. If you are low, just roll araund them and they will miss.
(if you use a trap set -- even better)

You can only effectively use dodge roll to avoid a DB on console, on pc it is much easier to aim.

Also, @Raudgrani meteor is the most buggy ult in the game. I routinely have the circle render late and since Dragon Bones launched it will randomly decide to ignore block and CC anyway. Plus, if it hits a group of players only 1 has to not be blocking for them all to get CC’ed and there’s the rubber banding that occurs open world

I get that. Given the reach (10m?), I suppose it's better to roll dodge forward instead of backwards? It's a frontal cone effect I think?

the_broo11 · May 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Syncronaut wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You can block the CC.

To counter DB you have to be proactive, if your opponent has a DBoS ready then you need to watch your health closely and not fall into dangerous levels of health OR pop an immovable pot.

Not being able to CC you shortens the burst window by a significant margin or eliminates it completely

Putting some points into cheaper rolls also works. If you are low, just roll araund them and they will miss.
(if you use a trap set -- even better)

You can only effectively use dodge roll to avoid a DB on console, on pc it is much easier to aim.

Also, @Raudgrani meteor is the most buggy ult in the game. I routinely have the circle render late and since Dragon Bones launched it will randomly decide to ignore block and CC anyway. Plus, if it hits a group of players only 1 has to not be blocking for them all to get CC’ed and there’s the rubber banding that occurs open world

I get that. Given the reach (10m?), I suppose it's better to roll dodge forward instead of backwards? It's a frontal cone effect I think?

Yes (to both questions), but that touches back on the original point. Roll dodging is only beneficial if you can get out of the cone. Otherwise you're taking the full effect (no block) as you get caught mid dodge. The best bet is to try to track the timing of enemies that are using dbos, that way you know when you need to be extra defensive and avoid that CC/death.

Lexxypwns · May 2018

the_broo11 wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Syncronaut wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You can block the CC.

To counter DB you have to be proactive, if your opponent has a DBoS ready then you need to watch your health closely and not fall into dangerous levels of health OR pop an immovable pot.

Not being able to CC you shortens the burst window by a significant margin or eliminates it completely

Putting some points into cheaper rolls also works. If you are low, just roll araund them and they will miss.
(if you use a trap set -- even better)

You can only effectively use dodge roll to avoid a DB on console, on pc it is much easier to aim.

Also, @Raudgrani meteor is the most buggy ult in the game. I routinely have the circle render late and since Dragon Bones launched it will randomly decide to ignore block and CC anyway. Plus, if it hits a group of players only 1 has to not be blocking for them all to get CC’ed and there’s the rubber banding that occurs open world

I get that. Given the reach (10m?), I suppose it's better to roll dodge forward instead of backwards? It's a frontal cone effect I think?

Yes (to both questions), but that touches back on the original point. Roll dodging is only beneficial if you can get out of the cone. Otherwise you're taking the full effect (no block) as you get caught mid dodge. The best bet is to try to track the timing of enemies that are using dbos, that way you know when you need to be extra defensive and avoid that CC/death.

Dodging is a valid tactic ON CONSOLE ONLY as long as you’re able to predict the DBoS and roll through them.

But you’re right, the best method of defense is definitely being aware when one could potentially be coming and play things safe

Nevasca · May 2018

While I do agree DB could use a ult cost nerf(+10 or +15), you're complaining that you're dying after you took 3 ultimates on your face.

Casul · May 2018

Once I dropped vamp it doesn’t feel so bad.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

While I do agree DB could use a ult cost nerf(+10 or +15), you're complaining that you're dying after you took 3 ultimates on your face.

Point is, I probably wouldn't if they was a little more easy to tell when they're coming. If there wasn't a weeks stun time, and if the reach wasn't like from Dragonclaw half way to Bruma. If the devs and the community feels this is all fine, all I can do is ask for suggestions as how to live through them the best way.

Lord-Otto · May 2018

Honestly, it sounds to me like you just ran into the usual suspects.
There are certain groups on our server that will only ult dump DBs and do little else. After a while playing and memorizing their names, you should see the multiple Dawnbreakers coming. Just try to stay away from ally clusters and you should avoid most DBs.
When it gets to small fights, just predict the DB hit based on your ult generation since the last one. It shouldn't kill you, and that is important, as long as you didn't let your guard drop and got too offensive when it dropped!

But I agree, Dawnbreaker is leagues above 90% of all ultimates.

f047ys3v3n · May 2018

Yea, it is better than 90% of ultis because:
1) It's cheap, a lot cheaper than meteor for instance.
2) Animation is quick and not so easy to make out so dogging or blocking is hard. This makes it hit harder than a meteor because I have always both blocked and shielded long before the meteor arrives.
3) It is a sticky DOT unlike the meteors small ground one.
4) Hits vamps harder and vamp is basically required for mag in PVP since it has the only skill that drops snares (most cleanses like mutagen do not and purge does no help if it is a ground based snare as it instantly re-applies.)

It is funny because dawnbreaker is opposite of meteor in the magic / stam divide but it is basically superior in every way. This was less of an issue when class ultis were stronger but most of them are not so great now and really a lot of mag and stam users now use these two ultis of which dawnbreaker is probably twice as good. I'm not sure that a nerf is in order. It is more a case of why have so many class mag ultis been turned to garbage and why do all mag ultis cost 200 or more.

Beardimus · May 2018

One answer is to buff Meteor so more of us magika dudes run that

Cheaper cost, moar pew pew pls

Qbiken · May 2018

Personally I would like a small tweak on Dawnbreaker:

1. Lower the base-tooltip of the skill
2. Buff the "Skilled Tracker"-passive to 25%.

This way, Dawnbreaker becomes less effective against non-daedric creatures, but more effective against undead and werewolfs.

Sharee · May 2018

Best counter so far for me has been: have a major expedition potion up at all times (47 duration, 45 cooldown), and then orbit the guy as fast as possible. The only weakness of dawnbreaker is the frontal cone. Make it impossible to aim, thats the best way to survive it.

Vapirko · May 2018

Wardens using DBoS and steel tornado is the new fotm zerg tactic. The best way to avoid going down to this is to learn to anticipate it coming. If you have snare immunity pop that and get your shields or self heals up and kite out of the way or dodgeroll. Use cc immunity pots. Once you learn how, these groups typically aren’t very good, and you can avoid them for quite some time. Granted if your faction or group doesn’t pull their act together you’ll die eventually unless you’re running a counter group with the wardens and earthgores. The other reason is that there aren’t any good stamina offensive ultimates other than DBoS. They’re almost all underperforming. So until there’s a really good option for stam sorcs, Templars or wardens in terms of class ults other than DBoS it’s just gonna show up.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Honestly, it sounds to me like you just ran into the usual suspects.
There are certain groups on our server that will only ult dump DBs and do little else. After a while playing and memorizing their names, you should see the multiple Dawnbreakers coming. Just try to stay away from ally clusters and you should avoid most DBs.
When it gets to small fights, just predict the DB hit based on your ult generation since the last one. It shouldn't kill you, and that is important, as long as you didn't let your guard drop and got too offensive when it dropped!

But I agree, Dawnbreaker is leagues above 90% of all ultimates.

That's exactly right. There are unfortunately loads of like "zero-skill-being-alone" groups, that do little beyond rushing and dropping Dawnbreaker. Sad thing is, people imitate them and you run into more and more of these. Admittedly, I have started to do it myself - not in group though.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2018

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

Lexxypwns · May 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

No stam spec is superior to mageblade as raid damage, in a vacuum. As long as vicious death is magika only bomb blade is simply more efficient and effective. Plus it has a larger aoe range making your burst less likely to be mitigated by spreading

aeowulf · May 2018

If it's not dawnbreaker, it will be something else. At least it's not a class skill...

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

No stam spec is superior to mageblade as raid damage, in a vacuum. As long as vicious death is magika only bomb blade is simply more efficient and effective. Plus it has a larger aoe range making your burst less likely to be mitigated by spreading

@Lexxypwns
I actually disagree. Bomblades are still really important and they do better AOE burst, but in most raids I see, the most raw damage done for the entire session is done by stamina. This is why you are seeing so many groups running stam at this point. You still need bomblades, but you dont need as many.

Raudgrani · May 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless I've been completely zerged down (i.e. by innumerable enemies), I can hardly remember when I actually died from something else over the last two months.

Funny, I usually find that is in fact when I see my death recap covered in dawnbreakers.

Since they removed AOE caps, you have seen a lot of Raid (zerg) DPS go towards stamina. Stam warden for example has great survival, great burst, and with Steel Tornado, great AOE. Stam players have actually pulled ahead of bomblades for raw damage in terms of zerg DPS.

If you got hit by 3 dawnbreakers, you were in a bad spot. Sometimes that happens, but If three people dump their ult on you at the same time (dawnbreaker or other), you are probably going to die, and you were probably over extended.

Yeah, I'm often not too cautious. But I mean, I go through being "Incap Striked" by a number or people within a few seconds. It's an ulti with a very distinct sound, and it feels the stun is easier to break out of - or perhaps it's just that you don't die almost instantly from it. LOL With Dawnbreaker I'm still clueless sometimes, like "Hmmm, what really hit me there? Ahh, two different Dawnbreakers, and yeah - the dot tics from those. Nice...".