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CYRODIIL SCORE, AP AND REWARD SYSTEM NEED AN OVERHAUL

  • lao
    lao
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    callen4492 wrote: »
    CYRODIIL MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO DIE!!!

    I love the the PvP found in Cyrodiil more than any other game I have ever played. It's my build vs your build, my skill vs your skill, my group vs your group and my alliance vs your alliance. The thrill of overcoming your enemies to have a dance/teabag party over their dead bodies is amazing. I'm sure that many of you love Cyrodiil just as much as I do and desperately want it to thrive into the future.

    That being said, I believe there's a consensus among the player base that something needs to change in Cyrodiil to bring back its edge. Most people suggest changes to the mechanics of certain abilities but what I think will bring the most effective and lasting improvement is a change to the Campaign Scoring, AP and End of Campaign Reward System. I have a series of (mostly) simple ideas that, if implemented, I believe will REDUCE THE AMOUNT AND EFFECTIVENESS OF MASSIVE ZERGS AND INCENTIVIZE HIGHLY-SKILLED, SMALL-GROUP PLAY. If you love Cyrodiil, please read on and comment.

    1) The more allies in your immediate area, the less AP you get for combat and captures.
    For example:
    10+ allies nearby = 25% reduction in AP earned
    20+ allies nearby = 50% reduction
    30+ allies nearby = 75% reduction
    40+ allies nearby = 90% reduction

    It even makes sense to get more AP when not part of a zerg because it is harder to get kills and captures with the help of fewer allies.


    2) Keeps/resources reward exponentially higher "campaign points" to your alliance (with a specific ceiling) the longer they are held without being captured by another alliance AND campaign points tick more often (every 10 minutes instead of every hour)
    For example:
    At the tick, keeps reward:
    Held for less than 10 min- 0 pts
    Held for 10 to 20 min - 1 pt
    Held for 20 to 30 min - 2 pts
    and so on...
    Held for 60+ min - 6 pts


    3) The longer it has been since a resource/keep was captured, the more AP you get from capturing it
    For example:
    Keep held for less than 10 min = 3,000 AP reward
    Keep held for more than 10 min but less than 30 min = 6,000 AP reward
    Keep held for more than 30 min but less than an hour = 12,000 AP reward
    Keep held for more than an hour = 18,000 AP reward
    - The reward for capturing resources could be similar, just scaled down


    4) Scrolls reward more Campaign Score than keeps and keeps reward more Campaign Score than resources.
    -This almost seems like common sense and I know the community has asked for this. Not sure why this hasn't changed already.


    5) While defending a keep/resource you earn 100% more AP than at other times (from combat and from the "successful defense" tick) to help prevent it from becoming like Domination in Battlegrounds where the most successful teams avoid contact with the enemy and just capture unguarded flags
    - If needed, there could be a better system for alerting everyone when a keep is under attack to prevent too many keeps/resources from falling with no defense.


    6) All-Star Royale:
    Every hour, the top 45 AP earners during the past hour (top 15 from each alliance) are transported to a 5 minute battleground style fight
    and the winners get:
    - Campaign Score for their Alliance
    - A large combat bonus for the next 20 minutes
    - A large AP tick (which doesn't count toward the next hours All-Star Royale)

    - This would make it so that the best and most committed players can affect their alliance's score more than your average joe and most importantly, it balances the scale toward the alliance with a lower population because only the top 15 players from each alliance can contribute.

    I even have an idea for what the arena could look like - Imagine PUBG where the alliance with the last man standing wins...

    While I realize proposition #6 would be a large effort for the developers, it doesn't seem like the previous changes would be too cumbersome of a task. Maybe you're wondering how some of these changes would affect Cyrodiil. Well, before I continue with my final proposed change, I would like to explain how the previous changes would affect Cyrodiil.

    Reasons why this would change Cyrodiil:

    1) Players (especially the "most committed players"; read: zerg ball leaders) would have incentive to fight in smaller groups. When fighting with a zerg, you would still have the benefit of being a more effective combat unit and getting kills/captures faster, but you would have the drawback of less AP earned per kill/capture. This means BALANCE!

    2) The areas where most of the action is occurring would constantly be shifting around the map. Right now, the bulk of the action in Cyrodiil occurs in the same 3 corridors with massive zerg balls going back and forth. With my changes, players would be less likely to attack the same keep after it was just captured because it offers fewer AP reward and is accumulating less Campaign Score. Combat would shift elsewhere until the keep offered greater incentive, at which time, players would be more likely to attack there.

    To better explain I'm going to list the advantages of attacking a keep deep behind enemy lines which hasn't been captured in a while versus the advantages of attacking a keep in the center of the map which was recently captured:

    Center keep, recently captured:
    - It's close and won't take very long to get there or get reinforcements/more allies
    - You'll gain a spawn point to strike deeper in enemy territory while removing an enemy spawn point
    - They're important for emperorship reasons

    Enemy home keep, last captured over an hour ago:
    - More AP gained upon capture
    - Taking an enemy keep which was allocating a high amount of points.
    - Cutting off enemy travel routes

    There are good reasons to attack both types of keeps instead of the same one over and over, which again, means BALANCE!

    3) A small group would actually make a difference in taking a keep deep behind enemy lines because you would reset the points gained from that keep/resource. It would also be important to defend those keeps/resources instead of just letting a zerg gobble them back up later on. On top of that, if you gave greater AP combat rewards to defenders, it would encourage some players to defend rather than just go take a keep deep behind enemy lines at the same time yours is being taken. Again, this means BALANCE!

    If this Campaign Scoring/AP plan already exists to some degree, it should be significantly increased to have a greater influence. To my final proposed change to Cyrodiil.

    7) HUGE rewards for winning your campaign. The reward for winning really needs to increase. On top of that, if the alliance with a smaller population wins, they should get an even greater reward.
    I even have a formula for this:
    End of Campaign Reward = (Standard campaign reward for winning)* (1/(1 - Avg pct. of full population during campaign for your alliance below average of other two campaigns))*(Multiplier for added difficulty of having less people in alliance; Ex. 1.3)
    For example:
    If AD had an average population of 50% full throughout the campaign, while EP and DC were and average of 60% full combined, AD would get 144% the standard campaign reward for winning while DC or EP would only get 91% of the standard campaign reward. With a large enough reward, this would entice players to balance between alliances over time.

    Note: I am an EP player and have only ever been an EP player.

    - This would give players incentive to fight for the alliance with the least players in it (Aldmeri)
    - Only receive campaign reward for highest AP earning character per account
    - If your character isn't in the top 25% of AP earners, you only get 50% of the reward
    - For this to be feasible, the End of Campaign Reward would have to be given in either AP, gold or valuable raw mats.

    If you read all, or even a fraction of that, you have my admiration and thanks. Let me know what you think of them and hope you enjoyed. Maybe someone from ZoS uses ideas on the forums to make their game better.

    Gt: ThePhatLard
    Xbox NA server
    Ebonheart Pact
    Moderately talented "try-hard randy" PvP'er



    alot of good ideas. however real pvpers dont need any other incentives than bragging rights and a ranking system which in its own way gives bragging rights too aslong as the games mechanics make sure that zerglings will always get considerably less AP per hour than small groups and solo players. since your ideas imply alot of these mechanics that would help achieve that you have my support.

    +10 internetz
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    callen4492 wrote: »
    CYRODIIL MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO DIE!!!

    1) The more allies in your immediate area, the less AP you get for combat and captures.

    They already get less AP because kills and captures are divided among all the players. Also, at heart, the game is meant for big battle/epic keep captures and that should not penalized.

    Though I do agree a 24 man should not get a total of 36K for PvDooring an empty resoruce
    2) Keeps/resources reward exponentially higher "campaign points" to your alliance (with a specific ceiling) the longer they are held without being captured by another alliance AND campaign points tick more often (every 10 minutes instead of every hour)

    Not a bad idea. But this sort of thing would only work on a pop-locked campaign
    3) The longer it has been since a resource/keep was captured, the more AP you get from capturing it

    Seems redundant with your #2. Also not sure rewarding a group for PvDooring a undefended Black Boot is what we want.
    4) Scrolls reward more Campaign Score than keeps and keeps reward more Campaign Score than resources.

    Agree this is dumb. Normally I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but I would not be surprised to learn ZoS made this change because scroll-fights were, next to last emperor keeps, the most notorious lag inducing faction-stacking fights.
    5) While defending a keep/resource you earn 100% more AP than at other times (from combat and from the "successful defense" tick) to help prevent it from becoming like Domination in Battlegrounds where the most successful teams avoid contact with the enemy and just capture unguarded flags

    In essence you want to reward people more for contesting attacked objectives and that something I can get behind. I do think, however, that attacking is also important. I think for a suggestion like this to work, there would need to be more objectives spread out because as it is, we do the vast majority of fighting at the objectives in the Emperor ring. There would be even less of an incentive to move out of it.
    6) All-Star Royale:
    Every hour, the top 45 AP earners during the past hour (top 15 from each alliance) are transported to a 5 minute battleground style fight
    and the winners get:
    - Campaign Score for their Alliance
    - A large combat bonus for the next 20 minutes
    - A large AP tick (which doesn't count toward the next hours All-Star Royale)

    Cute but impractical. It would be very disrupting if the campaign clock struck 2:00 and I was instantly transported to a Battleground while in the middle of a good fight.

  • Ranger209
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    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Ranger209 wrote: »
    I would think that maybe an announcement upon entering the point of interests radius should go to the player entering it saying something to the effect of "The area you are entering has a X% AP reduction for your alliance" upon entering and another announcement to the player when he/she leaves the area so that everyone is aware when they enter what the situation is.


    thats not likely to help the lag everyone complains about.

    Everyone already gets a message when they enter an area, now it would also say whether AP for your alliance has a reduction or not. The calculations to perform all of this from the original post, plus the converse calculations I suggested might cause some issues, but the messages wouldn't be much of a hit. Depends how they gather the information, though again much of this is already happening so that AP can be divided up between participants as is based on participation. Not sure it would be much of an addition over what the game is already doing, just using it in different ways. If a system like this helps spread people out though, it would definitely help the lag at least client side.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Ranger209 wrote: »
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Ranger209 wrote: »
    I would think that maybe an announcement upon entering the point of interests radius should go to the player entering it saying something to the effect of "The area you are entering has a X% AP reduction for your alliance" upon entering and another announcement to the player when he/she leaves the area so that everyone is aware when they enter what the situation is.


    thats not likely to help the lag everyone complains about.

    Everyone already gets a message when they enter an area, now it would also say whether AP for your alliance has a reduction or not. The calculations to perform all of this from the original post, plus the converse calculations I suggested might cause some issues, but the messages wouldn't be much of a hit. Depends how they gather the information, though again much of this is already happening so that AP can be divided up between participants as is based on participation. Not sure it would be much of an addition over what the game is already doing, just using it in different ways. If a system like this helps spread people out though, it would definitely help the lag at least client side.

    I dunno. If my group has been riding to a keep because we want to help capture or defend the keep, I don't think we're going to go "Whelp, there's too many people here and not enough AP here to be worth our effort" and then turn around and ride, ride, ride back to where we came from without bothering to fight.

    Sometimes we'll ride up to an obviously won location, go "Okay, let's move on to the next objective, they've got this" but that's not really the same thing.
  • Ranger209
    Ranger209
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    Ranger209 wrote: »
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Ranger209 wrote: »
    I would think that maybe an announcement upon entering the point of interests radius should go to the player entering it saying something to the effect of "The area you are entering has a X% AP reduction for your alliance" upon entering and another announcement to the player when he/she leaves the area so that everyone is aware when they enter what the situation is.


    thats not likely to help the lag everyone complains about.

    Everyone already gets a message when they enter an area, now it would also say whether AP for your alliance has a reduction or not. The calculations to perform all of this from the original post, plus the converse calculations I suggested might cause some issues, but the messages wouldn't be much of a hit. Depends how they gather the information, though again much of this is already happening so that AP can be divided up between participants as is based on participation. Not sure it would be much of an addition over what the game is already doing, just using it in different ways. If a system like this helps spread people out though, it would definitely help the lag at least client side.

    I dunno. If my group has been riding to a keep because we want to help capture or defend the keep, I don't think we're going to go "Whelp, there's too many people here and not enough AP here to be worth our effort" and then turn around and ride, ride, ride back to where we came from without bothering to fight.

    Sometimes we'll ride up to an obviously won location, go "Okay, let's move on to the next objective, they've got this" but that's not really the same thing.

    No, I wouldn't either, generally, but now it may not take an obviously won location to inspire moving on to the next objective. A "They should have this", or "If they don't get this we'll come back, but that next keep has been owned by Alliance X for 2 hours we need to get that back" may now figure into consideration.

    For some people it would be enough, some are all about the AP, some are into the score, some are into both, some are more into good fights. Different people will react to stimuli in various ways. Also please don't look at this in a vacuum, as it is part of the whole system being presented by the OP. If you don't make people aware of the AP gain or loss that they may incur then the system presented doesn't work. If you don't find out until after a battle that you got bonus AP/bonus Score or a reduced amount, then you really haven't been persuaded to stay and fight or leave.

    Honestly, I am more in favor of a mission system, or combat orders system that distributes players across the map, but there are some good ideas here in the OP. Things that could be considered in lieu of that.
  • Rohamad_Ali
    Rohamad_Ali
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    I liked all the suggestions except I am unsure on #6 . That would be a very painful situation for a defending emperor . I like the the ideas though and hope @ZOS_BrianWheeler would read these . Thank you for putting good effort into posting this .
  • callen4492
    callen4492
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    Ranger209 wrote: »

    Honestly, I am more in favor of a mission system, or combat orders system that distributes players across the map, but there are some good ideas here in the OP. Things that could be considered in lieu of that.

    That's an interesting idea. How do you think that would best be implemented? Maybe each alliance could be split up into 10 or so "squads" (have a maximum capacity but not a minimum capacity and allow people to swap if there's room) like the Battlefield titles, and each squad is given appropriate objectives (such as Capture and hold Chalman or Defend Allessia) with double xp for playing the objective.

    Maybe there could be an npc at each keep/resource standing right next to the siege merchant called a "Strategist" where group leaders can pick objectives. Each objective could only be selected by one group (once selected by one group leader, not available to others) and to select and to keep that objective (and the double xp that goes along with it) your group has to be a certain size. Smaller groups could get bonuses for smaller objectives such as "defend the resources around Arrius" and larger groups could have more important objectives like "attack and hold Castle Alessia". Of course, your group could only have one objective at a time.

    Also, for all those who are reminding us that Cyrodiil was built for massive battles- we know that. The suggestions that have been put forth would not put an end to the massive fights in Cyrodiil. That will never go away. They would simply add more variety to Cyrodiil.
  • gepe87
    gepe87
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    Just invert keep bonus (I know it may look weird, but it could work): Few homekeeps=more critical, ap and exp. Massive faction population + all those bonus incite zerging even more.
    Edited by gepe87 on January 6, 2018 6:21AM
    Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General

    If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    callen4492 wrote: »
    Ranger209 wrote: »

    Honestly, I am more in favor of a mission system, or combat orders system that distributes players across the map, but there are some good ideas here in the OP. Things that could be considered in lieu of that.

    That's an interesting idea. How do you think that would best be implemented? Maybe each alliance could be split up into 10 or so "squads" (have a maximum capacity but not a minimum capacity and allow people to swap if there's room) like the Battlefield titles, and each squad is given appropriate objectives (such as Capture and hold Chalman or Defend Allessia) with double xp for playing the objective.

    There's already a mechanism for doing that: the repeatable "Capture Fort/Castle/Keep Whatever" quests. Now, whether or not you can get enough people to go capture the castle for you is up to your organizational skills and ability to herd cats in zone chat.

    Honestly, I like playing PVP with my friends. When we run as an organized raid, we are doing what you want from a squad - focusing on our own objectives that doesn't always include running with the zerg. (But then you yell at us if we PVP something that not on the main corridors of fighting.) We generally pick our targets based on what's important or what will force the enemy to come back and defend or to cut off transit, etc.

    So unless your squad idea allows for playing with friends and your mission idea actually has some clue as to what's strategic movement on the map given the time to the next score tick and based on sensible prediction of the enemy's movements, I think that we as players actually do a better job of deciding where to go for ourselves. The Bounty quests are there if you want to do them for extra AP but they aren't forced on players.

    (Besides, what happens when the AI is sending a EP force to take Aleswell and a DC force to defend Aleswell? For one, no one needs an AI to tell them there's a conflict waiting to happen at Aleswell. If EP has Bleakers, the Bleakers to Ales corridor fight is going strong. Second, having a "squad" doesn't mean that the squads are equal, so how exactly is the AI determining which squad to send? Randomly or ranking?

    It just seems like a much more complex way to get extra rewards for something players already naturally do. My guild doesn't need an AI to tell us to defend Chalman when DC attacks it. The thought of having to recapture Chalman from DC is enough to motivate us.)

  • callen4492
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    @VaranisArano
    What I described is very very different than what is currently available - the mechanism which gives you bonuses for attacking a certain place. What I described made the bonus to attack/defend a certain area available to only a certain group of people. Other players could obviously fight there too, just without bonus AP. I think most PvPers are motivated more by playing the map most strategically and getting in good, fun fights with the enemy than they are by bonus AP. However, it would provide just a nudge for players to fight across the whole map.
  • elijafire
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    One thing at a time, this has been a known issue for years.
  • Draxys
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    I wouldn’t mind these changes minus #6, that’s just ridiculous. They get ported somewhere? What happens if they’re helping defend emp or against an emp push? What happens if they just don’t want to do that? Too many things can go wrong with that, and quite frankly, it doesn’t sound fun at all.
    2013

    rip decibel
  • KillingUGirl
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    2 major things would help Cyrodiil tremendously.

    1. Eliminate guest campaigns. There is absolutely no reason for guest campaign other then allowing certain alliances to bring their full force to any campaign they wish at any time they wish to do so. You get one campaign to join, no switching period.

    2. Elimainte alliance swapping mid campaign. As soon as one side starts to lose, usually because a certain alliance has brought in everyone from other campaigns, then everyone starts jumping ship to hop on the bandwagon. It should be once you’re in you’re in. No alliance hopping period.
    Edited by KillingUGirl on May 2, 2018 5:09AM
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