Are Crown Crates getting removed from EU servers this summer?

Vaelen · April 2018

I read that a handful of European governments have determined certain loot boxes to be considered illegal gambling under their laws... I don't play on EU servers thankfully, so I was just wondering if Zenimax will have to make changes to their policy if several other MMO companies will have to as well due to EU law enforcement actions.

Source: https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=0f64f990-19b4-43f0-b5e0-4b113153e811
https://eurogamer.net/amp/2018-04-25-now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

Depends on how much teeth those laws actually have, which doesn't look like much right now. If they do get some teeth, then yes, crown crates might be removed from the game in Europe (or ZOS will just reclassify the game as AO and pay whatever gambling taxes they need to, if they deem it won't hurt profits substantially).

DanteYoda · April 2018

I hope so yes i've dabbled in them but if they are removed it would be awesome also Australia is looking to ban them as well last i saw.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

But why should I even care for a system that is designed to rob me out of my money without even guaranteeing me the thing I wanted in the first place?

Vaelen · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

But why should I even care for a system that is designed to rob me out of my money without even guaranteeing me the thing I wanted in the first place?

Well the fact that you get a free crown crate each day you log in during an event to a maximum of 6 matters, because if they remove them from EU players they would have to add in something else. Maybe hand out free crown gems instead which you can then spend to buy something that you are guaranteed to obtain, although isn't that how crowns work anyway? Anyhow I am just wondering if Zenimax has any plans on changing the system soon, or will they let themselves get sued and taken to court?

Kodrac · April 2018

Hahaha wishful thinking

Tandor · April 2018

I've seen nothing that makes me think that crown crates will be affected by any anti-lootbox measures announced thus far. The fact that they always contain a number of items with the ability to convert them into gems if you don't get the particular item you're after makes them rather different from lootboxes in most games, and very different from pure gambling where you either win or lose.

Vaelen · April 2018

Tandor wrote: »

I've seen nothing that makes me think that crown crates will be affected by any anti-lootbox measures announced thus far. The fact that they always contain a number of items with the ability to convert them into gems if you don't get the particular item you're after makes them rather different from lootboxes in most games, and very different from pure gambling where you either win or lose.

True, but with the next update they will for the first time become transferable from one player to another through the gift system, which the EU governments have scrutinized for giving them economic trading value.

"The Authority further noted that in these cases, a transaction can be made with these specific in-game goods, including sale of these goods. When opening loot boxes, the consumer cannot influence the outcome (so the contents of a given loot box only become known to a player after they complete the purchase). It concluded that those games that feature in-game goods that can be traded fall under Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act. Under the Dutch Betting and Gaming Act, the promotion of games of chance and the distribution of items with a market value without the necessary license is prohibited.
The Authority found that the other six games with loot boxes that were studied do not contravene the law, as there are no in-game goods with a market value in these games. It thus concluded that these games do not satisfy the definition of a prize in Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act.
The Authority did not elaborate in its report what constitutes the goods being tradeable. For example, it did not address whether the existence of an authorized secondary market would trigger a finding that the goods have value. In its “Guide on Assessing Games of Chance” it provided an example."

https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=0f64f990-19b4-43f0-b5e0-4b113153e811

Tandor · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Depends on how much teeth those laws actually have, which doesn't look like much right now. If they do get some teeth, then yes, crown crates might be removed from the game in Europe (or ZOS will just reclassify the game as AO and pay whatever gambling taxes they need to, if they deem it won't hurt profits substantially).

If by "AO" you mean America only, that would be absurd given the popularity of the game in Europe. They'd lose more that way than by changing crown crates to comply with whatever law was introduced. In any event, we're not talking here about the whole of Europe, we're talking about one very small country, Belgium. If need be I imagine ZOS could block the crown crates purchase routine from those players registered in, or playing from IP addresses in, Belgium.

I've no doubt they're keeping an eye on the situation internationally, as it is an issue that may or may not gather pace globally. They may, however, feel that their crates are a very different concept to the lootboxes that are gaining all the attention in some other games.

As always, my advice to those campaigning against crates is to be careful what you wish for.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Vaelen wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

But why should I even care for a system that is designed to rob me out of my money without even guaranteeing me the thing I wanted in the first place?

Well the fact that you get a free crown crate each day you log in during an event to a maximum of 6 matters, because if they remove them from EU players they would have to add in something else. Maybe hand out free crown gems instead which you can then spend to buy something that you are guaranteed to obtain, although isn't that how crowns work anyway? Anyhow I am just wondering if Zenimax has any plans on changing the system soon, or will they let themselves get sued and taken to court?

This is like giving kids free drugs to make them addicted. They could have just offered free crowns or other goodies instead.

Or they could have given nothing. I really don't mind. I don't expect ZOS to give free premium stuff every once in a while. It means nothing to me.

Especially not when it is all there to make sure you buy more crates. You can live without some free crates, lets stop being so cheap allright?

logarifmik · April 2018

Crown crates designed very tricky, all these free giveaways and gems. My guess, they'll not be affected by any anti-lootbox laws.

MLGProPlayer · April 2018

Tandor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Depends on how much teeth those laws actually have, which doesn't look like much right now. If they do get some teeth, then yes, crown crates might be removed from the game in Europe (or ZOS will just reclassify the game as AO and pay whatever gambling taxes they need to, if they deem it won't hurt profits substantially).

If by "AO" you mean America only, that would be absurd given the popularity of the game in Europe. They'd lose more that way than by changing crown crates to comply with whatever law was introduced. In any event, we're not talking here about the whole of Europe, we're talking about one very small country, Belgium. If need be I imagine ZOS could block the crown crates purchase routine from those players registered in, or playing from IP addresses in, Belgium.

I've no doubt they're keeping an eye on the situation internationally, as it is an issue that may or may not gather pace globally. They may, however, feel that their crates are a very different concept to the lootboxes that are gaining all the attention in some other games.

As always, my advice to those campaigning against crates is to be careful what you wish for.

AO = Adult Only

Many EU retailers refuse to sell AO games, which is what might make removing crown crates the more appealing option.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Also, you know why this video is here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZJdaiJF84

Imza · April 2018

You really need to check out the gifting option in the new patch/summerset isle chapter before you jump to conclusions.

Gifting cannot be traded... you open your gift in a special window of the crown store - once you take it it is bound like any normal crown store item is bound.

AlienatedGoat · April 2018

This summer? Probably not.

Next summer? If legislation keeps going this way in other countries, quite possibly.

Juju_beans · April 2018

Vaelen wrote: »

I read that a handful of European governments have determined certain loot boxes to be considered illegal gambling under their laws... I don't play on EU servers thankfully, so I was just wondering if Zenimax will have to make changes to their policy if several other MMO companies will have to as well due to EU law enforcement actions.

Source: https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=0f64f990-19b4-43f0-b5e0-4b113153e811
https://eurogamer.net/amp/2018-04-25-now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal

No they probably won't because of the 2 criteria used.

Here's the 2 criteria taken right from the article you posted:

Two key criteria to decide if a loot box qualifies as a chance game under Dutch law are whether or not (i) these loot boxes are determined by chance and (ii) the prizes to be won can be traded outside of the game: the prizes have a market value.

Tandor · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Depends on how much teeth those laws actually have, which doesn't look like much right now. If they do get some teeth, then yes, crown crates might be removed from the game in Europe (or ZOS will just reclassify the game as AO and pay whatever gambling taxes they need to, if they deem it won't hurt profits substantially).

If by "AO" you mean America only, that would be absurd given the popularity of the game in Europe. They'd lose more that way than by changing crown crates to comply with whatever law was introduced. In any event, we're not talking here about the whole of Europe, we're talking about one very small country, Belgium. If need be I imagine ZOS could block the crown crates purchase routine from those players registered in, or playing from IP addresses in, Belgium.

I've no doubt they're keeping an eye on the situation internationally, as it is an issue that may or may not gather pace globally. They may, however, feel that their crates are a very different concept to the lootboxes that are gaining all the attention in some other games.

As always, my advice to those campaigning against crates is to be careful what you wish for.

AO = Adult Only

Many EU retailers refuse to sell AO games, which is what might make removing crown crates the more appealing option.

Oh right. I guess that in part depends on whether any new laws recognise when a game is labeled for a mature age rating as it is with ESO. In the UK at least the age rating went up with Tamriel Unlimited to 18 (from 16 at launch). The question of how many copies are actually bought in shops as opposed to online would also be a factor in any decision.

Tandor · April 2018

Vaelen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I've seen nothing that makes me think that crown crates will be affected by any anti-lootbox measures announced thus far. The fact that they always contain a number of items with the ability to convert them into gems if you don't get the particular item you're after makes them rather different from lootboxes in most games, and very different from pure gambling where you either win or lose.

True, but with the next update they will for the first time become transferable from one player to another through the gift system, which the EU governments have scrutinized for giving them economic trading value.

"The Authority further noted that in these cases, a transaction can be made with these specific in-game goods, including sale of these goods. When opening loot boxes, the consumer cannot influence the outcome (so the contents of a given loot box only become known to a player after they complete the purchase). It concluded that those games that feature in-game goods that can be traded fall under Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act. Under the Dutch Betting and Gaming Act, the promotion of games of chance and the distribution of items with a market value without the necessary license is prohibited.
The Authority found that the other six games with loot boxes that were studied do not contravene the law, as there are no in-game goods with a market value in these games. It thus concluded that these games do not satisfy the definition of a prize in Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act.
The Authority did not elaborate in its report what constitutes the goods being tradeable. For example, it did not address whether the existence of an authorized secondary market would trigger a finding that the goods have value. In its “Guide on Assessing Games of Chance” it provided an example."

https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=0f64f990-19b4-43f0-b5e0-4b113153e811

Have you seen a direct confirmation that crown crates will be included in those crown store items that can be gifted? I haven't, but may have missed something.

Syncronaut · April 2018

Well there is clearly a domino effect.

From battlefront when this started we got to a ban quite fast when it comes to laws.

Dymence · April 2018

Juju_beans wrote: »

Vaelen wrote: »

I read that a handful of European governments have determined certain loot boxes to be considered illegal gambling under their laws... I don't play on EU servers thankfully, so I was just wondering if Zenimax will have to make changes to their policy if several other MMO companies will have to as well due to EU law enforcement actions.

Source: https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=0f64f990-19b4-43f0-b5e0-4b113153e811
https://eurogamer.net/amp/2018-04-25-now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal

No they probably won't because of the 2 criteria used.

Here's the 2 criteria taken right from the article you posted:

Two key criteria to decide if a loot box qualifies as a chance game under Dutch law are whether or not (i) these loot boxes are determined by chance and (ii) the prizes to be won can be traded outside of the game: the prizes have a market value.

This post right here pretty much answers the question.

The lootboxes in ESO are currently very legal.

POps75p · April 2018

Vaelen wrote: »

I read that a handful of European governments have determined certain loot boxes to be considered illegal gambling under their laws... I don't play on EU servers thankfully, so I was just wondering if Zenimax will have to make changes to their policy if several other MMO companies will have to as well due to EU law enforcement actions.

Source: https://lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=0f64f990-19b4-43f0-b5e0-4b113153e811
https://eurogamer.net/amp/2018-04-25-now-belgium-declares-loot-boxes-gambling-and-therefore-illegal

first good thing any government has done.

Conduit0 · April 2018

Tandor wrote: »

Have you seen a direct confirmation that crown crates will be included in those crown store items that can be gifted? I haven't, but may have missed something.

Doesn't matter, even if you can gift a crown crate to someone else, the contents of the crown crate can not traded and therefore has no value under the law.

Vaelen · April 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Have you seen a direct confirmation that crown crates will be included in those crown store items that can be gifted? I haven't, but may have missed something.

Doesn't matter, even if you can gift a crown crate to someone else, the contents of the crown crate can not traded and therefore has no value under the law.

Are you 100% sure that crown crates and their contents/crown gems, cannot be gifted? proof?

Slick_007 · April 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

I hope so yes i've dabbled in them but if they are removed it would be awesome also Australia is looking to ban them as well last i saw.

we are a nanny state but where are you getting this from?

Beardimus · April 2018

I'm sure the strategy team at ZOS will look at it, ensure they comply to small print, and work around it.

Rightly so too its a good source of income for them and keeps our game afloat

zaria · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Depends on how much teeth those laws actually have, which doesn't look like much right now. If they do get some teeth, then yes, crown crates might be removed from the game in Europe (or ZOS will just reclassify the game as AO and pay whatever gambling taxes they need to, if they deem it won't hurt profits substantially).

If by "AO" you mean America only, that would be absurd given the popularity of the game in Europe. They'd lose more that way than by changing crown crates to comply with whatever law was introduced. In any event, we're not talking here about the whole of Europe, we're talking about one very small country, Belgium. If need be I imagine ZOS could block the crown crates purchase routine from those players registered in, or playing from IP addresses in, Belgium.

I've no doubt they're keeping an eye on the situation internationally, as it is an issue that may or may not gather pace globally. They may, however, feel that their crates are a very different concept to the lootboxes that are gaining all the attention in some other games.

As always, my advice to those campaigning against crates is to be careful what you wish for.

AO = Adult Only

Many EU retailers refuse to sell AO games, which is what might make removing crown crates the more appealing option.

Believe this is more an US thing, more games are AO as in 18 year in Europe because Europe rate violence harder

Runschei · April 2018

Vaelen wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

But why should I even care for a system that is designed to rob me out of my money without even guaranteeing me the thing I wanted in the first place?

Well the fact that you get a free crown crate each day you log in during an event to a maximum of 6 matters, because if they remove them from EU players they would have to add in something else. Maybe hand out free crown gems instead which you can then spend to buy something that you are guaranteed to obtain, although isn't that how crowns work anyway? Anyhow I am just wondering if Zenimax has any plans on changing the system soon, or will they let themselves get sued and taken to court?

Only if you already give money to ZOS by being a subscriber and having ESO+. So are they really that free?

Ancientwolf · April 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Have you seen a direct confirmation that crown crates will be included in those crown store items that can be gifted? I haven't, but may have missed something.

Doesn't matter, even if you can gift a crown crate to someone else, the contents of the crown crate can not traded and therefore has no value under the law.

^^^ Pretty much this. Next...

Danikat · April 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Depends on how much teeth those laws actually have, which doesn't look like much right now. If they do get some teeth, then yes, crown crates might be removed from the game in Europe (or ZOS will just reclassify the game as AO and pay whatever gambling taxes they need to, if they deem it won't hurt profits substantially).

If by "AO" you mean America only, that would be absurd given the popularity of the game in Europe. They'd lose more that way than by changing crown crates to comply with whatever law was introduced. In any event, we're not talking here about the whole of Europe, we're talking about one very small country, Belgium. If need be I imagine ZOS could block the crown crates purchase routine from those players registered in, or playing from IP addresses in, Belgium.

I've no doubt they're keeping an eye on the situation internationally, as it is an issue that may or may not gather pace globally. They may, however, feel that their crates are a very different concept to the lootboxes that are gaining all the attention in some other games.

As always, my advice to those campaigning against crates is to be careful what you wish for.

AO = Adult Only

Many EU retailers refuse to sell AO games, which is what might make removing crown crates the more appealing option.

That's not entirely accurate. AO is an ESRB rating, meaning it only applies in countries that use that rating system. Europe uses the PEGI system instead, and they've rated ESO 18+ since the Dark Brotherhood DLC was added and it became possible to murder innocents for no reason.

18+ is the highest rating PEGI has but it's far more common than ESRB AO ratings (including things like The Witcher 3, Skyrim after the vampire DLC was added, most Call of Duty games, all the Grand Theft Auto games etc.). It also doesn't have the same social stigma as an AO rating (maybe because there was never the same push to ban controversial games in Europe as there was in America in the 80's and early 90's). I admit I haven't tried buying games in every country in Europe but certainly in the UK you can buy 18+ games in supermarkets and high street stores. You have to be over 18 to buy them of course, but they're not hidden away like AO games are in America.

So under the current system even if crown crates are declared a form of gambling it can't lead to an increase in the age rating and is highly unlikely to lead to the game being banned or even harder to buy. There has been talk of PEGI adding a new warning symbol for gambling systems like loot crates (they have a gambling one already, but that's for things like games where you can play poker as a mini-game - on the basis that it teaches you how to do it so you could then gamble elsewhere).

Alternatively it might mean ZOS needs a gambling licence, depending on the specifics of the law (if one even gets put in place), but given the number of online casinos, and real casinos, operating over here that doesn't seem difficult to get.

They may decide it's not worth it however. But even then I think it's highly unlikely they'd shut down the EU servers or ban people from playing in Europe. More likely they'd remove the ability to buy crown crates and either we go without those items or they sell them another way. Or they change the way crates work so they're not classed as gambling under the new legislation.

So in summary here's the possibilities I see now:

Nothing happens - new EU-wide laws never get put in place and things carry on as they are
New laws are introduced but because ESO is already rated 18+ it's already compliant and nothing changes
ZOS buys a gambling licence to continue selling crown crates in Europe
ZOS removes crown crates on EU servers and sells the items through another system
ZOS removes crown crates on EU servers and there is no way to get those items

The only reason I could see them shutting down the EU servers completely is if they decide selling crown crates is now the main purpose of the game and it's not worth running it if they can't do that and they cannot get a gambling licence. In other words it's not going to happen.

DanteYoda · April 2018

Slick_007 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I hope so yes i've dabbled in them but if they are removed it would be awesome also Australia is looking to ban them as well last i saw.

we are a nanny state but where are you getting this from?

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/gamers-call-for-action-on-loot-boxes/9485856
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/11/victorias-gambling-regulator-loot-boxes-constitute-gambling/

Danikat · April 2018

Ancientwolf wrote: »

Conduit0 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Have you seen a direct confirmation that crown crates will be included in those crown store items that can be gifted? I haven't, but may have missed something.

Doesn't matter, even if you can gift a crown crate to someone else, the contents of the crown crate can not traded and therefore has no value under the law.

^^^ Pretty much this. Next...

That's the bit some politicians are talking about changing. That's why they're not currently classed as gambling - (along with the fact that you don't buy them directly - you buy fake currency which itself has no real-world value, and the fact that you're always guaranteed something).

Some people think that's an out-dated view and for a lot of people items in video games absolutely do have value and that should be recognised. Considering a lot of items, jewellery for example, have entirely arbitrary value entirely based on the fact that some people like how it looks it's not a totally new concept under law, but it isn't covered by any current EU legislation.

But it's very early days yet. There's a lot of ways they could work a new law, and at the moment they can't even agree on what, exactly, the problem is so it's going to be a few years at least before anything comes of it.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Are Crown Crates getting removed from EU servers this summer?

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