Here you go!

DanteYoda wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

Interesting, I just got to really appreciate Argonians since I started playing this game, even though I know the elder scrolls franchise since Morrowind.

I wanted to create a character that resembles one I played in another game and it was most fitting with this race. And yes, they are the most funny in terms of voice for example, also quite in terms of their culture/way of living.

DanteYoda wrote: »

Honestly Argonians in ESO are pretty comical and well a bit silly..

Kinda like the Hobbits of ESO no one takes them seriously..

Yes, and we all know, who carried the ring.

Losing a hobbit to the ring was far less dangerous than anyone else..

Exactly, they were far underestimated.

Scaly things and furry things are useless... unless you're Raz of course. Hiiiiissssssssmeow!

I've enjoyed all the Argonian content I've played so far, and found most Argonian characters (in TES and ESO) both sympathetic and interesting. Not wild about the Argonian uprising that led to the eradication of House Telvanni but that's some time in the future anyway.

phermitgb wrote: »

Argonians are great atmospheric characters for the elder scrolls franchise in general, but yes, I agree, they don't seem to get any significant hero spotlight time. To be fair, I can't remember any admirably distinctive Argonians in any of the elder scrolls games - I'm sure there were some there, but I can't seem to remember them.

However, I think ESO is a step ahead of the game in that regard, as the presence of the shadowscales and some of the relatively well-written questlines at least give you a chance to get immersed in Argonian culture to a much greater degree than any previous elder scrolls title I can remember

Morrowind did have a side questline where you could side with escaped slaves, IIRC, but they weren't exclusively Argonian

however, the *reason* Argonians don't feature very heavily as heroic characters, is, I suspect, the same reason that Shia Lebeouf (sp? I don't really care) had ten times as much screentime in the Transformers movie than any of the Transformers - Argonians don't really LOOK familiar, and they are kind of alien in their behavior as well, which means lousy or lazy writers (or more likely, marketing execs who are almost by definition lazy/incompetent story writers, of course, because THEY'RE NOT STORY WRITERS AT ALL!!) don't know how to make non-human characters compelling to other human beings.

because, of course, we're all racist jerks that can't empathize with anything that doesn't look like us, talk like us, act like us

sadly, I fear the marketing execs are closer to right than wrong, if many of the comments in this thread are any indicator - people, apparently, against all logic, aren't JUST racist, they actually seem to ENJOY being racist - make no mistake, there are people that posted in this thread just to show off a racist attitude toward an admittedly fictional race - but they're REVELING in it - they're LOVING that they get to be racist, and that they can show it off to everyone that reads the thread

and yes, you could argue that their racism is harmless, because, after all, the "people" they're prejudiced against don't actually exist, which is why, I'm pretty sure, they feel safe in being overtly racist - but still...

anyway, my point is - Micheal Bay is a hack, ruined the transformers movies, Peter Cullen's voice embodies idealized fatherhood, and we don't have Argonian heroes front and center in the elder scrolls universe because for whatever reason, we haven't gotten a writer up to the task of creating a goofy lizard-man hero that we can love and admire (or, more likely, we've had many writers that COULD have done it, but a marketing exec told them not to because it wouldn't sell as well as more chapters of Lusty Argonian Maid)

oh, also - SAMWISE GAMGEE IS ONE OF THE GREATEST HEROES OF FICTION!!
Bill the Pony is pretty awesome too.

In Mass Effect I felt like Urdnot Wrex and Garrus Vakarian were both well made characters and weren't mammals. I think they did a good job with those.

Knowledge wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thread quote:

"I feel like Argonian's are undervalued in cut scenes and as a whole."

Good, and i hope we see more of it.

That's really messed up. You probably think being racist against fictional species is okay but it actually reveals a lot psychologically. It also speaks miles about a person's character.

Sorry but you're not doctor phil. Also, forum mods have participated in the anti argonian comments too, guess they're racist too, right? Just like how killing eachother in the game shows our psychological needs to kill people too, amirite?


My nix-ox mount is more important valuable than any filthy lizard

Knowledge wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thread quote:

"I feel like Argonian's are undervalued in cut scenes and as a whole."

Good, and i hope we see more of it.

That's really messed up. You probably think being racist against fictional species is okay but it actually reveals a lot psychologically. It also speaks miles about a person's character.

What does it say about the person who anthropomorphizes a fictional race of characters made up of computer code and pixels to the extent that they feel the need to defend them as if they were living, breathing, and sentient beings?

There are either psychological issues at play here, or you, sir, are the ultimate RPer.

lygerseye wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thread quote:

"I feel like Argonian's are undervalued in cut scenes and as a whole."

Good, and i hope we see more of it.

That's really messed up. You probably think being racist against fictional species is okay but it actually reveals a lot psychologically. It also speaks miles about a person's character.

What does it say about the person who anthropomorphizes a fictional race of characters made up of computer code and pixels to the extent that they feel the need to defend them as if they were living, breathing, and sentient beings?

There are either psychological issues at play here, or you, sir, are the ultimate RPer.

I don't think you fully grasp the psychology here. Most races in fiction correlate to reality in some way. The Argonian's are enslaved by the Dunmer throughout their history. Then you have people here mocking and insulting a race that is enduring slavery and thinking it's okay, even reveling in it, as they believe it's alright. Their inhibitions are turned off and they love the fact that they can just attack something racially with little-to-no consequence. It shows the nature and psychology of the individual partaking in that action and demonstrates what they are capable of.

From a psychological level that type of behavior, which is hate driven, should not be accepted.

Knowledge wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thread quote:

"I feel like Argonian's are undervalued in cut scenes and as a whole."

Good, and i hope we see more of it.

That's really messed up. You probably think being racist against fictional species is okay but it actually reveals a lot psychologically. It also speaks miles about a person's character.

What does it say about the person who anthropomorphizes a fictional race of characters made up of computer code and pixels to the extent that they feel the need to defend them as if they were living, breathing, and sentient beings?

There are either psychological issues at play here, or you, sir, are the ultimate RPer.

I don't think you fully grasp the psychology here. Most races in fiction correlate to reality in some way. The Argonian's are enslaved by the Dunmer throughout their history. Then you have people here mocking and insulting a race that is enduring slavery and thinking it's okay, even reveling in it, as they believe it's alright. Their inhibitions are turned off and they love the fact that they can just attack something racially with little-to-no consequence. It shows the nature and psychology of the individual partaking in that action and demonstrates what they are capable of.

From a psychological level that type of behavior, which is hate driven, should not be accepted.

Then there are those of us who are far better at separating fiction from reality...

Knowledge wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thread quote:

"I feel like Argonian's are undervalued in cut scenes and as a whole."

Good, and i hope we see more of it.

That's really messed up. You probably think being racist against fictional species is okay but it actually reveals a lot psychologically. It also speaks miles about a person's character.

Lets avoid the armchair psychology here. The internet has trolls. People also get into the theme of the game and don't actually feel the way they're saying. Some people are legitimately repulsed by some of the acts of the cultures in the game (Cannibalism isn't freaky, really?). The statements people make come from many different directions including comedy as well. Your armchair psychology does nothing except annoy people. I suspect you don't even fully know what is going on in your own head, and your thoughts and feelings change from one day to the next notwithstanding the years of your life. (Edit: I just want to add that I was not specifically targeting you here, I am speaking of you but also human beings in general.)

I could very easily make the argument of racism based on your profound psychological knowledge as an attack on someone speaks volumes about you as well and the pathology of your desire to wield power over other individuals.

All of that being said do we as human beings have a tribal bias? A familial bias? A national bias? Of course we do. Its hardcoded into our biology and this is actually well researched. We are also intelligent beings who thankfully with peace can cross the boundaries of family, tribe and nation. I'm against racism but simultaneously this kind of browbeating and shouting racism is the modern inquisitorial way people are acting and I'm getting quite sick of seeing it everywhere. Its on the news. Its in pop culture. It is everywhere. I'm frankly sick of it. Nowadays, people are getting their jobs taken away, Antifa psychopaths have physically attacked Black and Latino pastors with a march for peace up in Oakland and when approached by the news claimed they were fighting a racist march. Thankfully, there was youtube and the world opened that can of worms and revealed the BS in plain view. Much of what is being called 'Racism' nowadays is really antipathy toward Communism. Given the fact that Communism has been the direct root of something along the lines of 100-200 million deaths (there's no real way we can be fully sure) in the last century I think that antipathy has good cause. Go look up the Maduro diet in Venezuela. Do we want Antifa Bolsheviks ramrodding the world into a fascistic regime with the powers of modern technology and reminiscent of George Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm? How about Vonnegut? Bradbury? Huxley?

This is not an attack on you individually but I grow weary of seeing these kinds of debates and straw man attacks. I suspect many people get offended by these types of insults and double down to troll and inflame because you've angered them. I think most people if they sit down and analyze the fiction of the peoples of Tamriel realize that most cultures are a mixed bag of good and bad. People get into their characters and sometimes blow off steam on the forums. I think most of them are intelligent enough to see the difference between a blue-black pointy-eared red-eyed humanoid with a slightly more slanted and oblong head as the fiction that they are. In other words I highly doubt that a bunch of *** members hop onto ESO so they could get their jollies off playing as a Dunmer, frankly. I love playing Argonians and I'm not personally offended by some guy being a joker and talking like a Telvanni or Dres Dunmer on the forums.

Lets take some time though to look at the races of Tamriel in an intelligent way that is not so 2-dimensional I have on occasion critiqued some of the different cultures of Tamriel. I find much of elven culture alien and disturbing and often evil. This doesn't mean I didn't think Sinderion was a good guy or that the Dwemer research in Markarth, Calcelmo was pretty cool also. Elven Supremacy (a hint of a particular fascism espoused by a man with a funny mustache and a roman salute) is highly disturbing if you take the time to look at it. The Alessian rebellion started in a major way because the continent of Tamriel was under the iron thumb of the Ayleids on almost 2/3 of the west side of the continent, with Dwemer below (also slavers) and Chimer (heavy duty slavers whose gods espouse lies, ***, murder, necromancy, ***, and other horrifying things that disgust me to repeat). Argonians who I personally have a great deal of empathy for despite their deadpan voices and emotionless faces greatly fascinate me. They trudge along as they always have and get enslaved and kicked around a great bit. They exhibit amazing levels of self sacrifice for others and generally are patient and not short of temper. I admire the Argonians and yet we must recognize there is a disturbing thread running through their culture in the form of Sithis. I'll quickly list a few other elements of the series. Orcs have a form of nobility and there is a great sadness surrounding the demise of Trinimac because of it. Their deep sense of honor and truthfulness has been corrupted from keeping one's oath to holding to curses. Orcs are intense but at the very least interesting and generally you know where you stand with one in the series. On the balance I find them often more noble than most of the races that look down their noses upon them, despite the faults of their culture which I sense many of the Orcs break the rules of (city orcs) or strike out on their own to avoid. Imperials, Bretons, Redguards and Nords all have a warlike bent to them over the years. In the case of Imperials it is somewhat acceptable in the sense that without their Empire things would likely be significantly worse with greater daedra running amok on Tamriel due to Ayleid mage-overlords. Redguards likewise hold to a fairly honorable belief system and respect toward life and their ancestors. They likewise get out of control though. Nordic Sovngarde forces Nords into battle much like the Orcs and this unfortunately makes an otherwise jolly people into violent ruffians often times. Khajiit culture prizes cunning which on its own is a good thing but often plays out in an admiration of theft or even murder. Bosmer are the same in this regard and hold to a cannibalistic way of life. Bosmer likewise value a petunia more than another person's life at times, though I think many Bosmer in the series are displayed as being very reserved in large part because they don't want to have to exact the laws that weigh on their race due to the green pact.

What was my point in this exercise? One can clearly see there are hooks to hold onto that is both good and bad in them all. I could likely write a 100 page thesis on the topic if that were my desire. You could pull from all kinds of psychological thought provoking ideas such as Carl Jung on ESO as well as the work of people like Joseph Campbell. It would be very easy to discuss how the different philosophies of the various cultures/races in the game series represent such themes that would show one's strength often can lead to one's weakness or flaw. Elven magical prowess for instance leads toward a sense of superiority and hubris, a thread which runs throughout the series, the Dwemer and Ayleids are perhaps the greatest example of this. Orcish preoccupation with honor and oath lead toward violence and curse (Justice without Mercy). At any regard I could go on and on, and I would just like to say you should look at people with a little more acceptance and nuance. For goodness sake there are people who roleplay on the forums by writing in 3rd person to represent themselves as a Khajiit. I'm fairly certain they do so all in good fun and the racist bogeyman that so many are looking for around every corner I would posit is vastly rarer than folks think.

@dodgehopper_ESO

OMG let me have your babies PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Apparently, people like dirty, disgusting elves more than hilarious lizard people with mammalian features.

What makes them hilarious?

They talk all funky and often seem absolutely confused by the mannerisms and social norms of other races.

Okay now we're going to be racist.

Erm, yeah. In game racism in context...its kinda lore. Don't make it something its not....

But reason for not having them in the trailer, is bar the fans of them they aren't appealing. They dont sell the game to the masses. In fact if I saw a giant lizard in the trailer it would have made me think twice.

I saw elf doing magic, hard core Nord, some assasin NB dude, all the big themes of the game

Sure the people that love Argonians like em. But as per this thred alot hate em.

I was indifferent until I hit Shadowfen, and I hated that zone. Hated the people, diaglog etc etc.

I did however roll one, for the healing buffs to help my pet sorc along and I wanted her to stay a Pact race so best choice. But she's hidden in the Orsinuum bear costume

Now we're justifying it. This is humanity.

From a marketing perspective, the visage of an Argonian doesn't really appeal to the mass market.

From a lore perspective, most DLC/Expansion locations thus far have not been in Argonian dominated territory.