The king of loot boxes has declared them unfit.

Ley · April 2018

asterixchaos wrote: »

What's worse, in my mind, is the the RNG doesn't seem terribly random. Whether it's crown crates or the recent Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, some accounts seem to consistently perform better than others. I'd love to be able to get a bigger sample size than just my guild, but the numbers definitely seem "streaky."

While I agree and it does feel that way sometimes. I suspect this to be a combination of RNG and people just being dishonest (ashamed) about how many crown crates it took them to get their rewards.

heaven13 · April 2018

Sevn wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I guess I will never be the person to understand the exclusivity game. I'm playing for my own enjoyment. Not to measure my **** alongside someone else's. I don't care what mount you're riding or how much you paid to get it. I get mounts or costumes or whatever if they fit my character. I care more about rarity when it comes to EARNED achievements. Dang, you got Flawless? Good job, man, respect! You got some melted cheese exploding mount? Okay?

Virtual achievements mean zilch to me. "You spent how long trying to get that ugly skin? M'kay" Locking cool looking cosmetics behind content that can only be completed by whoever takes the time to learn a set pattern or whatever is bullocks to me. I don't play videogames to pat myself in the back thinking good job!

I'm not defending their prices, but I have no problem spending that time it would take to learn a dungeons inner workings actually working to just buy what I want outright. I also only buy items that fits my toons, not for rarity. I think most players do, I rarely hear anyone say they bought a mount to feel like a special snowflake.

And with lootboxes, you're not buying anything except consumables. You just might get lucky and get something else. This is why I would be fine with a both option; earn in game or buy. Make crown crate rewards direct purchase or RNG for those that like the thrill and don't want something specific.

I do personally like to earn things and will play games multiple times to increase the difficulty until I can finish on the hardest setting. (I also like replaying stuff and making different choices in quests though, admittedly, it's not nearly as satisfying and game changing here as other games). I remember when I first started playing the game - I did the quest in Glenumbra with Giblets. I'd hoped he could become my pet once I solved the mystery of his previous owner's death. And then he followed one of the Lion Guard further at the mention of the Vestige's name (yet still couldn't be acquired). I was so disappointed.

Sevn · April 2018

To be clear I'm not adverse to challenging content in games, I'm quite good at pushing buttons and learning patterns, I just no longer find it fun or entertaining. Time is short and getting shorter everyday for me.

I'd just rather do something else that's meaningful to me with that time, that's all. I too would rather a duel option, but you should see the outcry about skins being available in the store, though you can easily and quickly tell the difference between bought and earned.

eklhaftb16_ESO · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

These threads are akin to " i want to win the $200 million jackpot, and im willing to spin $500 to get it. So i should just give them $500 and they should give me the jackpot". The radiant apex rewards are their for the sole purpose of selling crates and thats it. I hope they add more exclusive rewards to crown crates like motifs and houses. People who take a chance and win should be rewarded. High risk= high reward. No risk= no reward.

I think you misunderstand. The purpose of shopping is to buy what you want, not to "take a chance".
Would you buy your groceries in a store that sells everything in unlabelled boxes, and doesn't even let you return the unwanted stuff because you've already opened the package?

I have no interest of "taking chances" when buying stuff. On the contrary, taking chances is the very opposite of what I want to do when shopping. For example, when I go buy some flour, I want to have 100% odds of getting flour, and zero odds of getting some talcum powder or ground chalk instead.

Soul_Marrow · April 2018

heaven13 wrote: »

And with lootboxes, you're not buying anything except consumables. You just might get lucky and get something else. This is why I would be fine with a both option; earn in game or buy. Make crown crate rewards direct purchase or RNG for those that like the thrill and don't want something specific.

I do personally like to earn things and will play games multiple times to increase the difficulty until I can finish on the hardest setting. (I also like replaying stuff and making different choices in quests though, admittedly, it's not nearly as satisfying and game changing here as other games). I remember when I first started playing the game - I did the quest in Glenumbra with Giblets. I'd hoped he could become my pet once I solved the mystery of his previous owner's death. And then he followed one of the Lion Guard further at the mention of the Vestige's name (yet still couldn't be acquired). I was so disappointed.[/quote]

I couldn't possibly agree with you more, but I have had all of these same debates with people on these forums enough to finally come to a realization. We are dealing with a cultural shift as well as an industry shift here unfortunately. These people no longer want to earn things the way gamers did in the past, they want to take the quick route of buying them. A good portion of the people spending hundreds or even thousands in the crown store don't have the same pride in earning something and sense of accomplishment that someone like you or I tend to have. It's EASIER for them to swipe a card and move on. The original way of MMO's has slipped by in many ways and I don't see them coming back anytime soon sadly. I do wish there were more things to earn in ESO...this would also possibly lessen the complaining about the boring end-game.

I will absolutely get screeched at for saying this, but it is what it is. For a real world example, just take a look at how people behave in the workforce now. As a GROUP, new workers joining or who have recently joined the workforce are typically less skilled and less prepared now now than they have been in a very long time, quite possibly ever. There are SO many who would rather complain about minimum wage until they make 15 dollars an hour working at McDonald's or Walmart than to work towards a career using their minds and their skills because it takes less effort. The cult of laziness, entitlement and outrage is very real, my friend. Many feel "Why earn it if it can be purchased?" and then when you make a statement like this one, the outrage begins.

P.S. I'm speaking of a cultural way of thinking. I'm not necessarily saying that EVERYONE who does X must work at Y and think exactly like Z so anyone who reads this and takes it too literally, please save the REEE's.

VyersReaver · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

These threads are akin to " i want to win the $200 million jackpot, and im willing to spin $500 to get it. So i should just give them $500 and they should give me the jackpot". The radiant apex rewards are their for the sole purpose of selling crates and thats it. I hope they add more exclusive rewards to crown crates like motifs and houses. People who take a chance and win should be rewarded. High risk= high reward. No risk= no reward.

Generation Me is so ridiculous with their " but i want it therefore i should have it and you should just give it to me for the price i want to pay!" Even if they sold radiant apex outright people would create threads about how expensive they are. I imagine they would be 800 to 1k gems which would somewhere between 75 and 200 crates depending on your luck.

Found a casino manager, guys.

Stewart1874 · April 2018

That picture of fifa kinda got me thinking about the lootboxes.

Ultimate team is palatable partly because there is no demand that the user purchases the loot crates/packs with real cash, you can and its easier but there is no necessity to gain the players, instead you can save up fifa currency and buy them spending nothing other than your time.

Could that be copied over? Instead put all the older crown crates into a 'pool' and allow players to purchase crates with either crowns or gold. Obviously for Zo$ this would need to have some kind of financial incentive so offering these crates for normal crown prices but then also offering them for a set fee in gold - perhaps 25k gold per box?

My anger wains when the necessity of spending real world currency is removed. The balance is struck by inflating the gold price to a somewhat undesirable level.

thoughts?

Danikat · April 2018

Sevn wrote: »

In theory it sounds like the most idealistic way to utilize the crown store- the ability to buy direct purchase for everything.

In reality, folks only want to spend roughly 1500-2000 crowns for any and all things and would still *** and moan about anything costing more. Just look at the uproar over the price of the ghost horse for further evidence, and it's just 3000 crowns.

That's peanuts to me but they are complaining about it being overpriced. I don't like horses mounts but if it was a cat or a wolf I'd have bought one for both my accounts.

Crown crates in eso are just a scapegoat, with this unrealistic idea that everything would cost 1500 crowns if not for them, imho.

I'd have a really good laugh if someone outside my profession tried to tell me how much work I did or did not put into something and why I should charge less for the work I've done.

Something can be over-priced without costing more than you can afford.

There's one club in my town I refuse to go to because they charge £8.50 for a beer (and even more for spirits with the barest minimum of a mixer they can possibly get out the tap). I can afford to pay £8.50, it's not even a lot of money to me. But it's more than a beer is worth to me, especially when I know I can get basically the same thing for less money in a different setting.

Same with microtransactions in games. I can afford to spend 3,000 crowns on a glowy horse, but if I know I can get a similar glowy mount in another game for 1/2 that it's going to seem over-priced to me.

(Honestly I'd be a little concerned about anyone whose sole consideration when deciding if they want to buy something is whether they have enough money. That's a great way to end up with no money and a lot of junk you don't actually want but which happened to be advertised to you.)

Syncronaut · April 2018

I guess this happened to Ea recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8ssMDbmrw

Makes me wonder if they go after this game to?

Mystrius_Archaion · April 2018

asterixchaos wrote: »

https://www.vg247.com/2018/04/16/its-clear-to-us-that-players-see-the-company-differently-than-we-do-says-ea/

EA is ending its love affair with the random loot box and *GASP!* letting people spend real money on real choice.

To be honest and fair, EA is only doing that because Battlefront 2 is Star Wars and Disney owns Star Wars and is a little bit of a control-freak and hates poor public image with their brands. Disney put a little pressure on EA, to put it mildly.

I kind of wish Disney would buy Zenimax and give it the same treatment.

Mystrius_Archaion · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Generation Me is so ridiculous with their " but i want it therefore i should have it and you should just give it to me for the price i want to pay!" Even if they sold radiant apex outright people would create threads about how expensive they are.

Actually, that's the necessary push and pull basis of the barter and trade system every last economy is built upon.
We want/need something, they have it and we need to trade something they want/need, the amounts of which are exchanged is based on the value both sides place on the items. Each side wants to give less and get more which, in an ideal system, results in balancing out to equal exchange.

These gambling boxes, and a lot of other things controlled by powerful companies, are trying to trick consumers into giving more than they get, losing on the trade rather than equivalency.

I find it funny that people want to put down anybody that haggles or tries to get a better deal when the person they really need to put down is themselves for being gullible enough to just say "shut up and take my money" by not bartering/bargaining.

Mystrius_Archaion · April 2018

Soul_Marrow wrote: »

I couldn't possibly agree with you more, but I have had all of these same debates with people on these forums enough to finally come to a realization. We are dealing with a cultural shift as well as an industry shift here unfortunately. These people no longer want to earn things the way gamers did in the past, they want to take the quick route of buying them. A good portion of the people spending hundreds or even thousands in the crown store don't have the same pride in earning something and sense of accomplishment that someone like you or I tend to have.

First, we're paying for a product. That's the heart of the discussion.
Second, we expect to get what we pay for, agreed upon in the barter and trade market of each side agreeing to fair exchange.

So, we want to get what we pay for in this game without feeling like it is too much cost or effort(another form of cost) for us. This means everyone has a different level of this limit though. This is where difficulty sliders and different options for getting in game items come in.
More importantly, this also applies to why people want to buy items outright rather than earn them in game. They want the option to bypass a higher cost with a lower cost. Time is precious and, as the old saying goes, "time is money".

Often, people have a problem with "pay to win", but this is only because they view their own cost required as compared to others' cost required and feel it has harmed them in some way. This could be because of PVP, but get rid of pvp entirely or make the purchased item not provide any benefit in pvp and that falls apart. The other form is in PVE where they believe it is unfair that another should have an easier time at achieving the same thing they did "the hard way". This is a false sense of what is fair or right and wrong as it isn't a competition. They have added competitive value to it in their own mind, the same as any jealous person wishing they had the lover that somebody else has when they really should recognize that they have no reason to feel that jealousy because they don't put the same value on the same things as the other people. It is a natural reaction but ultimately flawed and can lead to bad decisions and bad results for everyone.

"Pay to win" is only a problem when there is a tangible "win" directly over another person. I don't think anybody would call it a "win" if they "spent" time for something while another person "spent" money for the same thing if they actually knew how much their time was worth and found it to be less than the amount paid for by the other player to avoid the time cost. That would make it "pay to lose".
It's almost completely pointless to argue over "pay to win" if there is no actual direct player competition.

I don't begrudge anybody paying more money to avoid the effort I put in. It's the nature of progress for things to become easier over time anyway. I don't want to be the old man claiming "in my day, we had to walk 5 miles, up hill, both ways, for the same thing you young lazy people can get right next door" because I also actually can and do benefit from the same thing whether I recognize it or not.

In summary, the ideal system is a system with customizable levels of effort(difficulty settings/sliders) required for return on investment(reward) and the option of multiple different ways to reach that return on investment, including exchanging money for time, because "time is money" so "time = money" making them equal and fair at the basic level, as long as no direct consumer competition is involved.

notimetocare · April 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

As long as whales keep buying them, companies will keep making them, ZOS included. Don't take your objections to ZOS. Object directly at the whales that buy them. If nobody bought them, ZOS wouldn't sell them. This certainly doesn't excuse ZOS from the shady predatory nature of loot boxes but the problem involves 2 sides.

You call them whales, really they are just people with disposable income that make you envious

DanteYoda · April 2018

notimetocare wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

As long as whales keep buying them, companies will keep making them, ZOS included. Don't take your objections to ZOS. Object directly at the whales that buy them. If nobody bought them, ZOS wouldn't sell them. This certainly doesn't excuse ZOS from the shady predatory nature of loot boxes but the problem involves 2 sides.

You call them whales, really they are just people with disposable income that make you envious

To me they are people that do not know how to spend their money wisely, yes they have high incomes and its their money but still not smart to throw thousands of dollars into a virtual company that you will lose out on when the game folds..

And they all fold at some point.

Istoppucks · April 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

As long as whales keep buying them, companies will keep making them, ZOS included. Don't take your objections to ZOS. Object directly at the whales that buy them. If nobody bought them, ZOS wouldn't sell them. This certainly doesn't excuse ZOS from the shady predatory nature of loot boxes but the problem involves 2 sides.

You call them whales, really they are just people with disposable income that make you envious

To me they are people that do not know how to spend their money wisely, yes they have high incomes and its their money but still not smart to throw thousands of dollars into a virtual company that you will lose out on when the game folds..

And they all fold at some point.

Yeah i mean all those people who throw $10,000+ on season tickets to a pro sports team are so "unwise" . They know that season is going to end but they still throw tons of money at it. Plus they waste $20 on a beer. /sarcasm

Nobody wants or needs the opinions of others on how to spend their own money.

Istoppucks · April 2018

The "king of loot boxes " did not. Why do people always try and misrepresent articles to push a bias agenda?

It was pretty clear if you read the article what they are against in the future. Since the OP obviously didnt read the article i leave it here.

"It’s very clear that inclusion of *PAY TO WIN* mechanics in Star Wars: Battlefront 2 backfired in a way no one could have anticipated."

Mystrius_Archaion · April 2018

Istoppucks wrote: »

The "king of loot boxes " did not. Why do people always try and misrepresent articles to push a bias agenda?

It was pretty clear if you read the article what they are against in the future. Since the OP obviously didnt read the article i leave it here.

"It’s very clear that inclusion of *PAY TO WIN* mechanics in Star Wars: Battlefront 2 backfired in a way no one could have anticipated."

Yet that is how they inevitably all go because that is what players want most, "to win".
ZOS has definitely considered selling gear. It's absolutely guaranteed just like the old phrase "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". They just chose not to sell anything that gives that blatant an advantage.

Although, the research scrolls and xp scrolls do border on the same type of things EA was doing with Battlefront 2 that set the players off. The only reason ZOS gets away with it is they didn't do this before release of the game, like Battlefront 2 did. ZOS already hooked us so too many people kept their mouths shut and their eyes closed so they wouldn't realize what a mistake they made.