The king of loot boxes has declared them unfit.

asterixchaos · April 2018

https://www.vg247.com/2018/04/16/its-clear-to-us-that-players-see-the-company-differently-than-we-do-says-ea/

EA is ending its love affair with the random loot box and *GASP!* letting people spend real money on real choice. Can we have that yet, or do we have to make our costume and memento menus completely over-bloated and impossible to use because we have to get every b---sh-- costume or memento that our characters won't use in an effort to get the one mount we actually do want..?

Down with loot boxes! Set the prices as high as is fair, but let us buy what we want! I'd much rather drop 15k crowns on a super-luxe, super-fancy mount than to drop 10k crowns on a *** of crown gems and stuff I'll never use.

ArtCommissions · April 2018

Ill drop 25,000 crowns on that Shadow Rider Senche!

Syncronaut · April 2018

Ea still has lootboxes:

asterixchaos · April 2018

Heck, I'd even be happy with some kind of an option to sell back or at even filter out some of the costumes and mementos that I've gotten out of these thousands of boxes opened. Now, to involve the mementos I want to use in RP, I've got to plan ahead, or halt the action while I frantically scroll through the umpteen buhjillion mementos that have accumulated on that menu.

asterixchaos · April 2018

Syncronaut wrote: »

Ea still has lootboxes:

FTFA:

The Linked Article Above: wrote:

Battlefront 2 re-added microtransactions in a patch released before the weekend. It’s only limited to cosmetic items, and DICE removed the randomised loot box elements, meaning you’ll only be paying for what you want.

The article doesn't suggest that they've eliminated all of them, but they are making clear moves that they're rethinking their viability.

redspecter23 · April 2018

As long as whales keep buying them, companies will keep making them, ZOS included. Don't take your objections to ZOS. Object directly at the whales that buy them. If nobody bought them, ZOS wouldn't sell them. This certainly doesn't excuse ZOS from the shady predatory nature of loot boxes but the problem involves 2 sides.

asterixchaos · April 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

As long as whales keep buying them, companies will keep making them, ZOS included. Don't take your objections to ZOS. Object directly at the whales that buy them. If nobody bought them, ZOS wouldn't sell them. This certainly doesn't excuse ZOS from the shady predatory nature of loot boxes but the problem involves 2 sides.

I agree, absolutely--but I'm more than happy to appeal to both sides. If ZOS gives whales an option that's not predatory and gamble-y, then whales will still buy, just not not like this. One side or the other has to make a change first. I'm encouraging both.

Danikat · April 2018

I agree that ZOS is never going to remove loot boxes as long as they keep selling. EA only did it because there was such a massive backlash against them specifically, and before the game even when on sale - strongly suggesting that going ahead with the idea would hurt their profits. No matter how they dress it up that's why they changed it.

But I wonder if ZOS would be open to a compromise along the lines of what Guild Wars 2 did with their mount skin loot boxes (also only have after a lot of negative press). They still have the RNG boxes - for 400 gems (£4.25 or $5) you can get a random mount skin. But you can also buy the skin of your choice for 1,200 gems (£12.75 or $15).

IMO making it 3x as expensive is still a pretty bad deal for customers. But if there's only 1 you want it's still better than the 5,400 gems it would cost to get all of them from loot boxes.

In ESO this would be fairly simple:
1) Add radiant apex mounts to those that can be bought with crown gems.
2) Make it possible to buy crown gems.

(Edited to fix a typo.)

asterixchaos · April 2018

Danikat wrote: »

I agree that ZOS is never going to remove loot boxes as long as they keep selling. EA only did it because there was such a massive backlash against them specifically, and before the game even when on sale - strongly suggesting that going ahead with the idea would hurt their profits. No matter how they dress it up that's why they changed it.

But I wonder if ZOS would be open to a compromise along the lines of what Guild Wars 2 did with their mount skin loot boxes (also only have a lot of negative press). They still have the RNG boxes - for 400 gems (£4.25 or $5) you can get a random mount skin. But you can also buy the skin of your choice for 1,200 gems (£12.75 or $15).

IMO making it 3x as expensive is still a pretty bad deal for customers. But if there's only 1 you want it's still better than the 5,400 gems it would cost to get all of them from loot boxes.

In ESO this would be fairly simple:
1) Add radiant apex mounts to those that can be bought with crown gems.
2) Make it possible to buy crown gems.

This. All of this. That's all I want. I'll pay whatever they ask for something if it's something I'm keen on. I have legendarily bad luck; I've been hit by lightning twice. I've been in physical altercations with 2 black bears, a wolf, and a sea lion. Opening loot boxes for the chance to maybe get the loot I want is a study in futility, and a source of great anxiety.

Anotherone773 · April 2018

These threads are akin to " i want to win the $200 million jackpot, and im willing to spin $500 to get it. So i should just give them $500 and they should give me the jackpot". The radiant apex rewards are their for the sole purpose of selling crates and thats it. I hope they add more exclusive rewards to crown crates like motifs and houses. People who take a chance and win should be rewarded. High risk= high reward. No risk= no reward.

Generation Me is so ridiculous with their " but i want it therefore i should have it and you should just give it to me for the price i want to pay!" Even if they sold radiant apex outright people would create threads about how expensive they are. I imagine they would be 800 to 1k gems which would somewhere between 75 and 200 crates depending on your luck.

asterixchaos · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

These threads are akin to " i want to win the $200 million jackpot, and im willing to spin $500 to get it. So i should just give them $500 and they should give me the jackpot". The radiant apex rewards are their for the sole purpose of selling crates and thats it. I hope they add more exclusive rewards to crown crates like motifs and houses. People who take a chance and win should be rewarded. High risk= high reward. No risk= no reward.

Generation Me is so ridiculous with their " but i want it therefore i should have it and you should just give it to me for the price i want to pay!" Even if they sold radiant apex outright people would create threads about how expensive they are. I imagine they would be 800 to 1k gems which would somewhere between 75 and 200 crates depending on your luck.

I think you're kind of missing the point, Anotherone. If they offered the chance for people to buy the products--they're still buy them. The only reason to lock all of this stuff behind a RNG is to trick people into buying more than they need. Whales will still be whales. Hell, MWO offered a custom skin for some of the 'Mechs that sold at $500 US. Whales bought the absolute crap out of those. If something is priced in such a way to be a fancy, exclusive thing, whales are still going to buy.

What the whole loot crate thing does is create a have/have-not division where one doesn't need to be. It's not an entitlement thing. It's not a Generation Me thing. It's not a risk/reward thing. It's an, "I'm a customer, I'd like for my $1 to equal your other customers' $1" thing. Luck and gambling should not be the backbone of an economy.

Danikat · April 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Generation Me is so ridiculous with their " but i want it therefore i should have it and you should just give it to me for the price i want to pay!" Even if they sold radiant apex outright people would create threads about how expensive they are. I imagine they would be 800 to 1k gems which would somewhere between 75 and 200 crates depending on your luck.

I could be wrong but I would have thought the majority of ESO players are younger than that. Generation Me is what's now better known as baby boomers, born between about 1940 and 1960 and now in their 60s or 70s.

(No, seriously, that exact same stereotypical attack was used in the 1970's against the same people who now think they're so clever for using it against their own descendants. An absurdly extreme version of it, coupled with a rather disturbing misunderstanding of where babies come from is what inspired the book and later movie Logan's Run.)

Hanokihs · April 2018

Just because something is rare and expensive, it doesn't automatically mean the whales will be tantalized enough to buy it. As someone who's spent exorbitant amounts of cash chasing a radiant mount here or there, I actually take offense to that notion.

If it's not cool and fits nobody's character theme, nobody who cares about that stuff is going to buy it. (Anyone seen any Radiant skeleton mounts, lately?)

If it's cool but very expensive, everyone will want it and the ones who can't have it will complain about the price. (Remember the Dro-m'Athra panther's 4000 crown debut?)

Crown Crates annoy everyone on both ends; I feel like that's the closes thing to a happy medium we're gonna get.

asterixchaos · April 2018

Okay, then why not both? Give us the chance to buy the crates on the cheap, so we can take our chances with the RNG, but for those of us who know we've got nothing but bad luck, give us the option to lay down a pile of cash to skip the uncertainty.

Sevn · April 2018

In theory it sounds like the most idealistic way to utilize the crown store- the ability to buy direct purchase for everything.

In reality, folks only want to spend roughly 1500-2000 crowns for any and all things and would still *** and moan about anything costing more. Just look at the uproar over the price of the ghost horse for further evidence, and it's just 3000 crowns.

That's peanuts to me but they are complaining about it being overpriced. I don't like horses mounts but if it was a cat or a wolf I'd have bought one for both my accounts.

Crown crates in eso are just a scapegoat, with this unrealistic idea that everything would cost 1500 crowns if not for them, imho.

I'd have a really good laugh if someone outside my profession tried to tell me how much work I did or did not put into something and why I should charge less for the work I've done.

asterixchaos · April 2018

While on the one hand, I can absolutely appreciate the valuation of one's profession, gambling doesn't come with a valuation. The best and the worst slot machines are sold at a given price. The dispensing of gambling has a valuation, not the gambling itself.

More to the point though, this is my profession. I work in game design, and I'm wholly, utterly, vehemently against loot boxes. Yes, they are insanely profitable, but that profit comes at the cost of treating customers not as customers, but as a resource. It's a very, very subtle distinction between the two, but a very important one.

Sevn · April 2018

For clarity, I wasn't addressing you, personally, but the many many armchair devs who don't have knowledge of game design yet speak as if they do.

Battlefronts loot boxes are/were extremely different than eso's crown crates in that EA designed the entire game around them, including progression. ESO is not, nor is there anything in crown crates or the crown store a requirement to play or even enjoy eso.

Gtao is completely designed around MT's and that game is praised to the high heavens. If ESO was made into a grindy tedious slugfest with the only real way to advance being thru the crown crates or crown crates period I'd be leading the charge with pickfork in hand.

Everything in there is optional pixels. Despite my devils advocate views, I'd love nothing more for them to suspend the crown crates and offer items for direct purchase, but at whatever they chose to charge.

It's the only way to determine if my theory is right and players aren't truly concerned with addiction and are using it as a scapegoat. As someone who volunteers on a regular basis in addiction centers it irks me if that is the case.

These individuals require real help, not harsh words on a videogame forum because players want to buy pixels cheaply.

asterixchaos · April 2018

My apologies if I came out overly defensive; I appreciate the follow-up and clarification! You're right, though. That's a big part of why I don't much care for the "target the whales" hate. ZOS uses a gambling system that, if it isn't geared specifically to play toward that addiction, certainly makes no efforts to shield people from it. I'm not even really interested in cheap as a solution, as much as I'm interested in taking the whole chance things out of it. I'd mentioned the equality of dollars further up in the thread, and that's really where some measure of my beef comes from; one player buying 2,000 crates to get something that someone else gets after 5 creates an uncomfortably skewed sense of value of those customer's contribution to the bottom line. What's worse, in my mind, is the the RNG doesn't seem terribly random. Whether it's crown crates or the recent Anniversary Jubilee Boxes, some accounts seem to consistently perform better than others. I'd love to be able to get a bigger sample size than just my guild, but the numbers definitely seem "streaky." If this were a bunch of friends sitting around on a private server in an in-game casino, no big deal. When you're talking about real people and real money, though, a sense of fairness is kind of important.

Turelus · April 2018

EA says a lot of things. The old saying "actions speak louder than words" is very true with that company.

asterixchaos · April 2018

True! Fingers crossed, though. Hopefully we can see a precedent of moving away from loot boxes start. MT is great; it can fund games and respects the customer's agency. The gambling crates are more or less the same thing, but without the modicum of respect. I'd hoped that ZOS was better than all that, but maybe if a few other companies start showing an example, these folks will change course.

Either way, it's all pissing in the wind until someone takes the first step toward actual change. As you say, actions speak louder than words!

Sevn · April 2018

No worries, just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was personally attacking you! Frankly, I too would be much much happier buying directly, though I didn't have a huge issue with crates until they implemented this sleazy inability to use gems to buy whatever you'd like except the all new radiant mounts.

Completely unacceptable and as someone who spented( past tense) large amounts on crates I refuse to support this new sleazy model and more high spenders are starting to feel the same. I'm no whale, but I'm a decent size fish and their over reliance on whales will be their downfall.

Maybe not with ESO, it's got a diehard ES fanbase they can exploit, but gamers have long memories and were not just gamers, we're business folks and regular consumers as well and their next project WILL be affected by their decisions in ESO.

MajesticHaruki · April 2018

ZOS is not EA. Unless crown crates backfire on zos like loot boxes did on EA, zos won't do anything. And from what I gather zos is making a serious buck with crates.

asterixchaos · April 2018

@Sevn Hell yeah. Couldn't have said it better.

@MajesticHaruki I agree. We can hope and wish and have discussions like these and let them know we're disappointed. I don't anticipate seeing any change until there's a major shift in the industry, but with the number of promises I've ZOS renege on, I don't expect them to be industry leaders any time soon.

heaven13 · April 2018

3000 crowns is $30. (Less if you buy bigger packs or on sale or whatever but at base value $14.99 is 1500 crowns)

$30 for a digital mount that's not even a new mesh. It's a reskin. Probably took MAYBE an hour to do it with the existing models. So yes, people are ******** about crown prices being expensive.

These types of transactions are called MICROtransactions. Ain't nothing micro about $30 (or $100 for a house or $50 for a single mundus stone housing item).

asterixchaos · April 2018

That's fair; the name 'microtransaction' is something of a misnomer in any case. Apple clarified their language on the app store a little bit by shifting microtransaction verbiage to "In-app purchases." Games like Start Citizen or Mechwarrior Online also thrive off of microtransactions, but you're regularly seeing products that cost $20, $30, even $50 or $100 as part of the game. On the flip side of that though, I have to have a 'Mech to play MWO. I don't require a see-through horse to play ESO. I still feel the pricing for much of what's in the crown store is fair, however. The high value of things like the Ghost Horse or say, the Erstwhile Sanctuary has to do with scarcity. It's available for 24 hours, and then.... That's it. From that point forward, only those people who had crowns and liked the mount at that time will have it, until a few months or a year from now, they end up in a crown crate. As it's not a product that they will be able to continually use to generate revenue, having a higher cost while it is available sort of makes sense.

heaven13 · April 2018

I guess I will never be the person to understand the exclusivity game. I'm playing for my own enjoyment. Not to measure my **** alongside someone else's. I don't care what mount you're riding or how much you paid to get it. I get mounts or costumes or whatever if they fit my character. I care more about rarity when it comes to EARNED achievements. Dang, you got Flawless? Good job, man, respect! You got some melted cheese exploding mount? Okay?

I can't understand or accept that digital reskins can and do sell for more than the cost of a DLC. It makes literally zero sense to me.

asterixchaos · April 2018

That's fair, and to be honest, I think it's an attitude shared by the vast majority of our community. There exists however, that cross-section of gamers that will make anything and everything competitive. That need, rightfully or not, to feel some extra measure of special, or to have something that allows them to feel unique. We all come to gaming to scratch some kind of an itch, whether it's to escape reality, enjoy the challenges of figuring out a boss fight, or just to enjoy time with friends in Tamriel. They're all valid, and really if you're not too concerned with what mounts people are riding, the prices that people are willing to pay for them, micro or not, is kind of a moot point, isn't it? For some people, that super special three-legged horse with a rainbow peg leg and eyes that scream Grateful Dead lyrics IS a worthy DLC for them.

heaven13 · April 2018

I appreciate your calm approach to an opposing viewpoint. That said, in regards to gamble boxes (which is what this was about and I admit I veered off topic a little) I don't think gambling for that super rare thing is good for the game, regardless of who is willing to do it. I'd rather rare stuff be locked behind achievements. Cosmetics in cash shop for direct purchase at more reasonable prices.

For example, I didn't buy either the dark stag or the sparkle horse. Neither were something I was interested in. Both I consider too pricey anyway, but I appreciate that they were direct purchase (and the stag was actually a returning item). I can handle that. Would love to see loot boxes done away with, unless they were kept as a fun, alternative method to obtain random goodies at cheaper than direct purchase if you're not specifically aiming at one thing

Idinuse · April 2018

Danikat wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Generation Me is so ridiculous with their " but i want it therefore i should have it and you should just give it to me for the price i want to pay!" Even if they sold radiant apex outright people would create threads about how expensive they are. I imagine they would be 800 to 1k gems which would somewhere between 75 and 200 crates depending on your luck.

I could be wrong but I would have thought the majority of ESO players are younger than that. Generation Me is what's now better known as baby boomers, born between about 1940 and 1960 and now in their 60s or 70s.

(No, seriously, that exact same stereotypical attack was used in the 1970's against the same people who now think they're so clever for using it against their own descendants. An absurdly extreme version of it, coupled with a rather disturbing misunderstanding of where babies come from is what inspired the book and later movie Logan's Run.)

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

― Socrates, 470 – 399 BC

asterixchaos · April 2018

Of course! The way I see it, we're all here because there's this amazing world with a pretty great game that we want to play together. We've all got at least one thing in common with one another if we're here, and on the Internet that's really as close as we can get to being neighbors. There's no reason to be nasty with each other, especially if it means we have a chance to connect with someone! I'm glad that you shared your view! That's how we get to learn new ideas. Civil discourse is at the very heart of growth and learning, so... Oppose away!

I wanted that stag so bad--the thorn antlers? SO cool. Last year when he popped up, and this past weekend it just happened to come along both times when my crown balance was low. Maybe next time!

I'm in complete agreement about a both option, really. If I had a wand of wish-granting, that's exactly how I'd see this thing shake out: Buy it at a fixed cost that's high enough to make it desirably profitable for ZOS, and then keep loot boxes around for the folks who just really love peeling open a random thing. Honestly, I was even fine before they did this whole radiant apex thing and made collecting crown gems pointless. Alas.

I'm very glad to meet you, Heaven13. Even moreso to get to have an actual conversation with you.

Sevn · April 2018

heaven13 wrote: »

I guess I will never be the person to understand the exclusivity game. I'm playing for my own enjoyment. Not to measure my **** alongside someone else's. I don't care what mount you're riding or how much you paid to get it. I get mounts or costumes or whatever if they fit my character. I care more about rarity when it comes to EARNED achievements. Dang, you got Flawless? Good job, man, respect! You got some melted cheese exploding mount? Okay?

Virtual achievements mean zilch to me. "You spent how long trying to get that ugly skin? M'kay" Locking cool looking cosmetics behind content that can only be completed by whoever takes the time to learn a set pattern or whatever is bullocks to me. I don't play videogames to pat myself in the back thinking good job!

I'm not defending their prices, but I have no problem spending that time it would take to learn a dungeons inner workings actually working to just buy what I want outright. I also only buy items that fits my toons, not for rarity. I think most players do, I rarely hear anyone say they bought a mount to feel like a special snowflake.