Is stamina Warden op?

Skander · April 2018

Yes

The iusse is not with the class, per se But with what it combos.

Warden, as a class, lacks a lot of things for balancing it out. For exemple class-based dmg output lacks a lot, since it's often delayed and simply avoidable

When we come to stamina we have those flaws...gone.

You can have an execute,a nice spammable, you can have a good heal over time, a fast defile, even a snare removal (why having snares when only 1 side of the coin is affected by it?)

So your class is just buffing those stats.

MrDenimChicken · April 2018

Torbschka wrote: »

I dont feel like they are op, I find stam/mag NB way stronger. OFC, they are not weak at all, but in the age of rollerblades and all the upcoming changes (Stabes 2weapons, barely affects stamdem builds though) I dont thibk they are op.

And I barely see any wardens compared to the 40% NB population

how is mag nb way stronger? they suck in cyrodil and you barely see any in cyrodil as a result. they are great in duels, and good in pve right now, thats it

waaaay more stam nbs in pvp right now

Dredlord · April 2018

Yes

Absolutely yes in pvp, I just leveled one and have put on some basic gear (un golded).

He is an absolute beast, extremely tanky, amazing aoe burst, very mobile and great sustain.

Basically everything I wish my mag temp had, and all it's missing is the purge...

They are way over performing in pvp right now...

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

No

Dredlord wrote: »

Absolutely yes in pvp, I just leveled one and have put on some basic gear (un golded).

He is an absolute beast, extremely tanky, amazing aoe burst, very mobile and great sustain.

Basically everything I wish my mag temp had, and all it's missing is the purge...

They are way over performing in pvp right now...

Here’s is what I know, Wardens have zero chance of killing me. NB also have zero chance, outside a successful coordinated bomb run which includes a negate and some talons.
DK, Templar, and Sorc are all actually capable of the kind of sustain pressure to kill me. No burst build can, burst drops, it’s not enough, they can’t bring it again before I full recover

NyassaV · April 2018

Yes

Can I have a "Slightly" option? Overtime it's gotten more balanced but there are still bad elements

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Yes

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Dyride · April 2018

No

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

I dont feel like they are op, I find stam/mag NB way stronger. OFC, they are not weak at all, but in the age of rollerblades and all the upcoming changes (Stabes 2weapons, barely affects stamdem builds though) I dont thibk they are op.

And I barely see any wardens compared to the 40% NB population

how is mag nb way stronger? they suck in cyrodil and you barely see any in cyrodil as a result. they are great in duels, and good in pve right now, thats it

waaaay more stam nbs in pvp right now

Stam NBs are more common but I see quite a few magicka nbs in Cyrodiil on PC NA. It could depend on the server though, I've heard interesting things about which builds are more common on console vs pc and EU vs NA.

MagNb with Zaan/Caluurion can be a ridiculous proc ganker. Also MagNBs have tether bombing and better destro bombing than any other class.

DHale · April 2018

No

If you are named a Kodi then yes if you are not named Kodi no. If you are not named Kodi but run a build from someone named Kodi then you are definelty not op.

Maura_Neysa · April 2018

No

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

This is probably the tenth poll and they come out like this every time (50/50) Hey at least Pvp has figure out how to play them. PvE still b****s about how weak they are, when Stamden is only behind Stamblade for DPS.

Vapirko · April 2018

No

pieratsos wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You can’t just designate a class as OP. Nothing is ever that black and white. I mean yes they have access to a very wide range of abilities and stam wardens are good in PvP, but that’s really it. But their range of abilities is good and should be a model for fine tuning other classes. For example warden is great, but I think Stam Sorc is way more fun to play. Hurricane and crit surge is an awesome combo that rivals certain warden skills. Warden just has more choices. Or power of the light is almost preferable 1v1 over sub assaault because it can’t be dodged. It’s all trade offs. But, warden overall can compete with any class and hold it’s own which to me is the mark of a good class where as other classes are lacking.

Warden in general should be a model to avoid. Not to fine tuning other classes. The class is OP, useless and balanced at the same time. Just a bunch of one trick pony abilities and mechanics with no identity. The class is a freaking mess. Warden should be literally reworked from scratch. The other classes should be used as models to rework wardens. Not the other way around.

I obviously disagree with this. If played with a good mag and stam pool stam warden is far from a one trick pony. Yes you can choose to just spam sub assault, but it’s usefullnes solo and in small scale groups is very great. It can’t be useless, op and balanced at the same time. I’d say it’s slightly overturned in PvP and that’s really it. And what’s wrong with having a class that does lots of things pretty well? People are always complaining about how classes can’t do this role or that role and this is ZOS’ answer to that. If anything this is just proof that no matter what players will complain about anything and everything.

Stratforge · April 2018

Yes

If you're saying this is an l2p issue you need to get a brain. Either you play warden and don't want it nerfed (fair enough) or you are lost.

Edit: In anticipation of someone annoying asking "why don't you roll one then?"
I already did

Ludof · April 2018

Yes

Yes.

Whoever voted no has surely been playing a stamden...

maddiniiLuna · April 2018

No

I play mainly PvP, which is why my answer will be entirely PvP related.

The thing about Stam warden is, that you need no skill to play. I see this so often: You hit 3 Buttons in a row, spam your 2 execute and that`s it. No mechanics or special tactics behind it. But those wardens often get destroyed pretty quickly (especially from me, who also plays a warden).

When you are a pve player or an ok pvp player you can get kills with the warden. When you are a good player or focused pvp players, you can get domination with the warden.

But here is the thing, why you think warden is op. If you lack mechanics on the warden, you can still achieve something. If you play a stam sorc ( just one example of a dozen ) and you lack mechanics - you won`t be able to kill anything. Literally if you are a stam sorc you can`t just walk up to somebody, press 3 buttons and expect to come out as conqueror. If you are a good player with good mechanics you will win most duels on a stam sorc or mag nightblade. It`s up to you!

The warden is a very "beginner friendly" class, as it can do everything (apart from execute *cry*), because he has a spell for everything. With the sorc you need to rely on the mages guild or fighters guild etc.

On the other hand: Avoid a stam warden`s burst combo is just as easy as getting kills with it. If you can`t press Block, then at this point you`ll have to ask yourself.....

Thogard · April 2018

Yes

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

Vapirko · April 2018

No

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

Dyride · April 2018

No

Haha, Stam sorc with Valkyn and a few other DoTs+Implosion will get you more KBs than Warden in a zerg v zerg.

Stamina Wardens have a good ability to switch between offense and defense quickly, decent burst, and good healing that helps their group. Their ability to switch between offense and defense so well is kinda where they stand out, cause even though they may not have the best defensive toolkit for solo stam builds, their contributions to healing make up for it.

Shimmering Shield does provide a lot of defense versus ranged builds and would be the main thing I think is over-performing on Warden, I'm totally behind the cost increase though I don't think the magicka return should be nerfed.

Birds being dodge-able has reined in a lot of Warden's ability versus stamina builds, almost too much so in my opinion since they don't have any class snares, CC( Magdens do I guess..) or DoTs (bugs).

Stamden is pretty strong versus magicka builds that don't have any ability to snare or immobilize. Fights versus MagDks and Magblades using Forward Momentum are hard to win.

Thogard · April 2018

Yes

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

ak_pvp · April 2018

No

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Untrue. Stamden burst isn't that hard, or even above really any other classes. Buffs, sub, dizzy, dawn. That isn't to say its not preventable, but its not hard at all. Stamsorc has by far a higher learning curve, since it requires mixing pressure with burst, the defense is weaker, (less innate tankiness, no shimmering, streak is nice though for rock climbing) the sustain is more active vs passive. If you want to be an Xv1 hero, then yeah, maybe a squishy bleedsorc is better.

You don't see many wardens because its 1) Morrow locked. So not everyone has them 2) Class/original spec loyalty is a thing. i.e. achievements, rankings laziness etc. 3) You might have morrow, and not care about specific characters, but then you have to buy another slot if you have 8 prior. and 4) NB is fotm and cloak is the ultimate OW too.

Priyasekarssk · April 2018

No

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Its you

. Good to see you . I feel shimmering shield is OP. It shouldn't be spammable similar to other shields in game with crazy ultimate generation. Permafrost is definitely OP in group fights. 3 wardens can wipe out entire group of 15 people if all activate at same time . Even 1 permafrost is extremely OP. I dont see any reason why stamwardens are not using in place of dawn breaker in group fights. I think many are not aware of permafrost and just good at copying someone builds.

Apart from that I dont see any major thing that make warden OP. Same buffs for other classes. Warden has no CC or execute. Rely on weapon skills for that.

NB , no offense, so many that cannot be countered. NB is crazy OP .
One example . Just mark target cloak snipe, cloak snipe until target die. You can move in full speed in cloak and run around with 30M distance from target. Target cannot even make 1 single light attack on you.

Minalan · April 2018

Yes

It’s OP because of shimmering. No stamina class should have access to a shield like this.

They need to scale shimmering off of Max Magicka like EVERY other damage shield in the game. That way stamina Wardens can’t use it, it will be broken before absorbing more than one projectile. But Magicka Wardens remain unchanged.

But instead the max damage absorbed is a fixed number, that’s just pure ZOS genius right there.

Thogard · April 2018

Yes

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Untrue. Stamden burst isn't that hard, or even above really any other classes. Buffs, sub, dizzy, dawn. That isn't to say its not preventable, but its not hard at all. Stamsorc has by far a higher learning curve, since it requires mixing pressure with burst, the defense is weaker, (less innate tankiness, no shimmering, streak is nice though for rock climbing) the sustain is more active vs passive. If you want to be an Xv1 hero, then yeah, maybe a squishy bleedsorc is better.

You don't see many wardens because its 1) Morrow locked. So not everyone has them 2) Class/original spec loyalty is a thing. i.e. achievements, rankings laziness etc. 3) You might have morrow, and not care about specific characters, but then you have to buy another slot if you have 8 prior. and 4) NB is fotm and cloak is the ultimate OW too.

I just don’t see how anyone could argue that stamden burst is easier to land than Stam sorc. It’s not easier, it just hits harder. The only difference is you’re trading hurricane + implosion for beetles.

It’s a bit disingenuous to argue that hurricane and implosion have a higher skill requirement than beetles.

Crit surge is a heal anytime you Crit. Green lotus is a heal any time you light attack. Animation cancelling is definitely a higher skill cap than wearing some + Crit gear.

And don’t get me started on dark deal vs a CONAL spores.

Stamden is stronger because it’s burst is concentrated as opposed to mindless and shimmering shield is OP. But you can’t argue that shimmering shield is easier to use than dark deal in this new patch. If you cast shim shield when you aren’t getting pelted by projectiles, RIP your Magicka.

Again, I’m not saying that Stam sorc is stronger than stamden. I’m just saying that it’s far more beginner friendly.

Thogard · April 2018

Yes

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I like how it takes a year for the sheep to realize things. IF this poll was made a few months ago No would be the overwhelming answer to it.

As for my opinion stamdens are still able to go toe to toe with stamDKs in duels, while having the mobility and utility benefits in group play. Which is totally insane.

Their only weak spot is not having a good aoe to counter cloak spamming cheeseblades. Maybe if they go dual wield with ST that would also change, but I really didn't like dual wield on my stamden.

Its you . Good to see you . I feel shimmering shield is OP. It shouldn't be spammable similar to other shields in game with crazy ultimate generation. Permafrost is definitely OP in group fights. 3 wardens can wipe out entire group of 15 people if all activate at same time . Even 1 permafrost is extremely OP. I dont see any reason why stamwardens are not using in place of dawn breaker in group fights. I think many are not aware of permafrost and just good at copying someone builds.

Apart from that I dont see any major thing that make warden OP. Same buffs for other classes. Warden has no CC or execute. Rely on weapon skills for that.

NB , no offense, so many that cannot be countered. NB is crazy OP .
One example . Just mark target cloak snipe, cloak snipe until target die. You can move in full speed in cloak and run around with 30M distance from target. Target cannot even make 1 single light attack on you.

In response to the bolded portion, the answer is earthgore. Three stacked DBs can kill through earthgore. Permafrost spreads the damage too far out over time.

xaraan · April 2018

No

No.

And with Summerset they will get a smidge weaker on top of that.

Most players are just whining and many of the complaints I've seen are about not just the class, but good players on the class - guess what - most of the whiners would get beat by those players on whatever class they used.

CatchMeTrolling · April 2018

Only op in the right hands , the average nb will kill you before the average stamwarden, especially since wardens typically don’t run a gap closer. You can completely avoid their burst if you have any kind of mobility. I dueled two of them in open world recently and they could barely scratch me with shalks because I simply avoided it.

ak_pvp · April 2018

No

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Untrue. Stamden burst isn't that hard, or even above really any other classes. Buffs, sub, dizzy, dawn. That isn't to say its not preventable, but its not hard at all. Stamsorc has by far a higher learning curve, since it requires mixing pressure with burst, the defense is weaker, (less innate tankiness, no shimmering, streak is nice though for rock climbing) the sustain is more active vs passive. If you want to be an Xv1 hero, then yeah, maybe a squishy bleedsorc is better.

You don't see many wardens because its 1) Morrow locked. So not everyone has them 2) Class/original spec loyalty is a thing. i.e. achievements, rankings laziness etc. 3) You might have morrow, and not care about specific characters, but then you have to buy another slot if you have 8 prior. and 4) NB is fotm and cloak is the ultimate OW too.

I just don’t see how anyone could argue that stamden burst is easier to land than Stam sorc. It’s not easier, it just hits harder. The only difference is you’re trading hurricane + implosion for beetles.

It’s a bit disingenuous to argue that hurricane and implosion have a higher skill requirement than beetles.

Crit surge is a heal anytime you Crit. Green lotus is a heal any time you light attack. Animation cancelling is definitely a higher skill cap than wearing some + Crit gear.

And don’t get me started on dark deal vs a CONAL spores.

Stamden is stronger because it’s burst is concentrated as opposed to mindless and shimmering shield is OP. But you can’t argue that shimmering shield is easier to use than dark deal in this new patch. If you cast shim shield when you aren’t getting pelted by projectiles, RIP your Magicka.

Again, I’m not saying that Stam sorc is stronger than stamden. I’m just saying that it’s far more beginner friendly.

Hurricane is hardly burst though, its just pressure. Implosion is pretty stupid, but you still have to get them sub 15%, or into execute spam range. Its burst is harder since to use hurricanes pressure to maintain burst, you must stick to your target, and get them low to implosion threshold with the inferior burst. Wheras on a warden you press one button before, then aim it.

Nothing on stamsorc really says, oh, this is easy. Its mitigation is based on mobility, instead of also having tankiness. And yeah, dark deal was buffed by ZOSs quest against counterplay, but I don't think it carries them that much, since you give up casting anything during, and lose mag for your mobility.

IV_Deity · April 2018

No

Thogard wrote: »

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Then why vote yes? How you've explained it, it takes skill to actually use a warden, so how is this OP?

splitsand · April 2018

No

Stamden is far from OP. It's not even the best stam class right now. I can't even remember the last time I died to one.

Reason people think stamden is OP: They have sooo many good buffs. But, they either don't have barspace for them all or can't sustain it well enough.

How to kill a stamden 101:
1: Watch its feet, if you see the circles strafe or run through the warden. Or dodge to the side, or block if they are timing it with a cc. Very easy. It is the same counter to jabs, but it doesn't snare.

2: For people who complain about shimmering. If you can't counter shimmering then LOL. la+skill+la (this is 1.8 seconds of in game time). The only classes that are strictly ranged would be magsorc (if you complain about shimmering when you have shields that a warden can't do anything about...well, then. I think you should just walk the other way. Like most medium armor builds are forced to against MagDK) and ranged magblade. Ranged mageblade is even easier to counter stamden because of cloak and the ability to immobolize and stun the warden.

Also, for magsorcs, since you are the ones always complaining la+flame reach/clench+la will take down shield and then use another flame clench for stun+frag combo and as long as it is timed with curse and you have an execution on them it should be about enough to kill them. And if it doesn't kill them, then don't worry, because a stamden can pretty much never kill a magsorc. You have shields that they can't get through fast enough and streak, just play smart.

3: Is there any other way to die to a warden? I honestly don't know...Oh, yeah DON'T CHASE A WARDEN AROUND A CORNER! He will have a DB and a sub assault ready for you. Pretty easy.

People just like to complain about warden because they don't like that you have to pay for it. I'd much rather play my stamblade or stamsorc any day of the week.

Feel free to quote this and ask questions about things you think are un-counterable and I'll share some of the things that help me deal with wardens. I'm not trolling, just don't understand how people struggle with them. They have no class stun, or good spammable (dizzy swing is easily countered by tapping block and it has a cast time). They are just super tanky, and I think that's what bothers players the most. A bad player can pick up a warden and be hard to kill, but they won't be able to do much damage.

If you read this much, I appreciate it haha.

EDIT: Also, I'm not saying stamdens are bad (please don't think that lol), I'm just saying I think they are pretty balanced.

BohnT · April 2018

IV_Deity wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Then why vote yes? How you've explained it, it takes skill to actually use a warden, so how is this OP?

Because it's overperfoming? All classes take skill to be good but stamwarden just flat out overperfoms when you have a certain, relatively low skill level.

TheBonesXXX · April 2018

No

Warden by itself is pretty telegraphed, I do not think it needs to be nerfed; rather other classes need to be incrementally tweaked for improvement and the weapons themselves being looked at.

I feel some weapons are simple and easy, like 2h vs DW in most cases.

Thogard · April 2018

Yes

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Are you sure? Stam sorc is just as easy, if not easier, than stamden. I don’t think any actual player will tell you that hurricane + crit surge takes more skill to use than beetles + lotus.

I’d much rather go up against a beginner Stam Sorc than a beginner warden. Beginner stam sorcs melt like butter, wardens on the other hand can just pop heals on and on. In the hands of a good player they’re both deadly. Gotta say though I’m trying to like warden, but I just can’t get into it. Still far prefer the Stam Sorc rotation and rhythm.

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Untrue. Stamden burst isn't that hard, or even above really any other classes. Buffs, sub, dizzy, dawn. That isn't to say its not preventable, but its not hard at all. Stamsorc has by far a higher learning curve, since it requires mixing pressure with burst, the defense is weaker, (less innate tankiness, no shimmering, streak is nice though for rock climbing) the sustain is more active vs passive. If you want to be an Xv1 hero, then yeah, maybe a squishy bleedsorc is better.

You don't see many wardens because its 1) Morrow locked. So not everyone has them 2) Class/original spec loyalty is a thing. i.e. achievements, rankings laziness etc. 3) You might have morrow, and not care about specific characters, but then you have to buy another slot if you have 8 prior. and 4) NB is fotm and cloak is the ultimate OW too.

I just don’t see how anyone could argue that stamden burst is easier to land than Stam sorc. It’s not easier, it just hits harder. The only difference is you’re trading hurricane + implosion for beetles.

It’s a bit disingenuous to argue that hurricane and implosion have a higher skill requirement than beetles.

Crit surge is a heal anytime you Crit. Green lotus is a heal any time you light attack. Animation cancelling is definitely a higher skill cap than wearing some + Crit gear.

And don’t get me started on dark deal vs a CONAL spores.

Stamden is stronger because it’s burst is concentrated as opposed to mindless and shimmering shield is OP. But you can’t argue that shimmering shield is easier to use than dark deal in this new patch. If you cast shim shield when you aren’t getting pelted by projectiles, RIP your Magicka.

Again, I’m not saying that Stam sorc is stronger than stamden. I’m just saying that it’s far more beginner friendly.

Hurricane is hardly burst though, its just pressure. Implosion is pretty stupid, but you still have to get them sub 15%, or into execute spam range. Its burst is harder since to use hurricanes pressure to maintain burst, you must stick to your target, and get them low to implosion threshold with the inferior burst. Wheras on a warden you press one button before, then aim it.

Nothing on stamsorc really says, oh, this is easy. Its mitigation is based on mobility, instead of also having tankiness. And yeah, dark deal was buffed by ZOSs quest against counterplay, but I don't think it carries them that much, since you give up casting anything during, and lose mag for your mobility.

I think we’re saying the same thing but in two different ways.

IV_Deity wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

There’s a difference between being easy to play and being powerful. Stamden is more powerful than Stam sorc. It is also much harder to play - the buffs are trickier to balance, resource management is harder, and the burst requires more timing and aim than any other Stam class. But Yes, once youre good at it, it’s very powerful.

But that steep learning curve is why we don’t see a lot of stamdens running around. The number of free-kill stamdens running around vastly outnumber the free-kill Stam sorcs, who can just pop an immov pot and dark deal their way to full health and full resources.

Then why vote yes? How you've explained it, it takes skill to actually use a warden, so how is this OP?

Because for the 20% of stamden players who can reliably land shalks by timing them with a gap closer, it is an extremely powerful class for which there is no easy counter.

Even at the highest level of play, counters need to be possible. But I’m able to absolutely murder whole groups of people by running behind a corner, laying down shalks, activating my back bar clever alch set, running back into LOS and stampeding my targets at just the right time. Shalks can’t be blocked or dodged, and if the target(s) dodge roll then they take full dmg and stun from the DBoS that always follows. Then reverse slice 2 win. All of those attacks are AOE.
It’s one of the hardest combos in the game to pull off because both the shalks and the DB are conal instead of targeted, and you have to stampede at EXACTLY the right time. But it’s a really strong combo.

Can most stamdens pull that off? No. Only a handful can - most of whom I group with regularly. But as a combo, it just does too much damage for a class with as high mobility and healing as the stamden has. And shimmering shield providing defense at range allows us to LOS to set up the combo really easily.

Edit: The one thing stamdens aren’t great at is dueling because LOS is not an option in duels. In a 1v1, shalks become fairly avoidable by skillful play.