Take Flight - Press and Hold for More Range/Targeted AoE (Class Escape/Engage)

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

TL:DR
DK has great sustain, to that end they don't have an escape. However against large groups in PvP the lack of an escape causes positioning errors to really hurt. Add an escape functionality to DK Take Flight?

Recently rolled a HybridDK, and boy. I can see what y'all are talking about in that it has shite mobility if you're a melee char. Snares and whatsit make you a sitting duck, and whereas a NB has Shadow Image/Cloak, a Sorc has Bolt Escape, Warden has Major Expedition/Vines, DK mobility is kinda crap. Sure 2H snare removal is nice, but that is lesser by far.

And, TBH, I can see how against a zerg it just becomes a tidal wave of pressure you can't really escape, even just to get get back to your allies front. Making any positioning error a huge penalty that you can't really recover from unless you're specced tanky.

Now, I still think that the DK tradeoff should be extra tankiness in exchange for a lack of mobility, but they kinda need an escape skill.

To that end, I think by allowing Take Flight to be both an Offensive and Defensive ult might give the DK some unique flavor in their kit.

Here's my thought:
Turn it into a Quick-cast and/or (Uninterruptible) channeled skill.

Quick Cast: pressing the ultimate button will treat it as the normal skill, auto-aiming at your highlighted target. (Or failing if no target)
Held: Holding the ultimate button for at least a second, turns it into an AoE Ground Targeted skill, and the longer you hold it, the longer the range you can fly. up to a maximum distance at 2s Channel (or something).

And when I mean that it will increase the range, I really mean it. Allow you to at least double the jumping distance (Balance sake probably the summed distance than just the horizontal distance), and let the DK really fly. Either into battle (but now the skill is dumb-fired), or retreat to safety.

By sticking it behind the Ultimate, this type of mobility can both be a strong escape/engage tool, and still restrict the overall mobility of the class to compensate for its small-scale sustain.

Of course, it may need to be tweaked based on the terrain around keeps and such (no leaping onto them), and have a failsafe state for when lag mistakenly thinks you held the button rather than only pressed it.

What are your thoughts?

Checkmath · April 2018

I was reading through it and the middle i once again saw the dk leap into keeps....
So you want to tie this idea to an ultimate? This sounds horribly bad, because you would need to have your ult up to be able to run...at this point mist form is the better escape, even for a stamdk. It rather would make sense to use chains to move to far away obstacles...but that would be OP.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Checkmath

Hence why I said it'd need to have checks against target locations. (Probably checking player y against location y and making sure it isn't a large vertical increase). That still causes it to be problematic depending on the max distance allowed to travel and the smallest gap between a keep wall and cliff edge where the shift in vertical y is less than that of a keep wall. (but perhaps this could be solved if the calculation always started by radiating from the player, instead of trying to be as close to the target reticle as possible) Hell even then there might be an edge case where a player uses Take Flight next to a keep wall, and an enemy player uses chains on that player while they're at their zenith.

And honestly, this is putting escape inside the ultimate as it already exists. It is only additive to any DK who already has this skill slotted. Whereas Mist Form requires being a vamp and utilizing a skill slot. Which I find to be a good trade-off for the added escape of that skill.

And part of the reason for it to be in an ultimate, is as you notice. Becoming an unbiased spammable escape ability would be a bit broken, and having it only target allies is essentially the Warden's Vines.

Checkmath · April 2018

unbiased spammable escape ability like streak, right?

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Checkmath

You got it. That's the Sorcs identity.

Skander · April 2018

Stamina has snare removal. I don't know how you can't escape

Checkmath · April 2018

righ right
just thought it to be bound to the ultimate is just a bit underwhelming tough.
but together with the changes to wings might not be that bad.
flying away from the danger zone, then cast wings to remove snares and reflect whatever flies behind you. sounds not that bad.

ak_pvp · April 2018

Eh, I don't see the point tbh. A good class defense and snare immunity, and the problem solves itself.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Checkmath

Mhmm. Though the general thought is that this would travel even farther than the Sorc Streak. Not sure how many bugs/issues that'd bring about though. And could be more trouble than it's worth. IMO though, it'd be a nice change to a skill to really make your character feel more "dragon"-esque, and add a nice escape tool to the DK.

@Skander

It isn't that you can't escape, but rather that there isn't really anything that shunts you out of gapcloser range.

Checkmath · April 2018

i actually already thought, that the distance flying would be more than the one from streak, since its an ultimate and should be a bit more powerful. but lets just say you can jump 20-30 meters with it, then the aiming will be pretty hard like putting down liquid lightning, eruption or spear shards. its pretty hard to aim over that distance.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@ak_pvp

At which point though, how does a ranged character try and keep a DK at bay? That's why I'm not too fond of general snare immunity that can be spammed while also allowing a player to be tanky, since with gapclosers it only exacerbates the issue, and serves to neuter the more oppressive close-combat skills of the DK.

But at this point it's only speculation, I could be wrong.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Checkmath

That would indeed be a pain point, but one I'd consider that defines a player's skill. Generally needing practice and familiarity with the terrain. Though that in and of itself could be an argument against it, given that this is by no means a cheap skill. However, I would find that the un-charged ult would still suffice for a majority of gameplay, and the charged ult would serve more as a learning curve. Something to improve on.

Skander · April 2018

They should just add some more dmg per meters done on flight

Checkmath · April 2018

Skander wrote: »

They should just add some more dmg per meters done on flight

you dont even play dk....

actually this additional usage for leap would be fun, indeed. but a lot has to be done to make this skill really work. similar to gapclosers, they mostly dont work, when the area isnt flat. would be terrible to press the ultimate button for 2 seconds to get the message, that you cant leap to this place because of reasons.....

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Checkmath

Mhmm. Hopefully part of that would be solved by the AoE circle showing up as you hold/aim the ability, allowing you to see where you're aiming, and allowing you to cancel by pressing block (though this might need to be looked at for gamepad setups), if it doesn't look right.

Checkmath · April 2018

the circle would need two colors like siege weapons, so you immediately can see if a jump to that location is even possible.

ak_pvp · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@ak_pvp

At which point though, how does a ranged character try and keep a DK at bay? That's why I'm not too fond of general snare immunity that can be spammed while also allowing a player to be tanky, since with gapclosers it only exacerbates the issue, and serves to neuter the more oppressive close-combat skills of the DK.

But at this point it's only speculation, I could be wrong.

A range character can maintain range; use things like fear to move the DK away or stun them, use all the abilities that hit through wings, or force through it, and since wings is 4K it can't really be spammed.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Checkmath

I was actually thinking that the circle wouldn't be dictated by the cursor exclusively, but rather by calculating out from the player to the cursor. If it could reach the cursor's location, then it will show there, but otherwise would show the farthest location its calculation could reach based on the terrain between it and the player. (Display calculated client side, and target location sent server side upon release).

Of course, that might not be the best way to go about it.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2018

Wouldn't simply a somewhat higher arc for the longer jumps ensure that you don't get stuck on uneven terrain?

Skander · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

They should just add some more dmg per meters done on flight

you dont even play dk....

actually this additional usage for leap would be fun, indeed. but a lot has to be done to make this skill really work. similar to gapclosers, they mostly dont work, when the area isnt flat. would be terrible to press the ultimate button for 2 seconds to get the message, that you cant leap to this place because of reasons.....

Did you just put an agree on yourself or someone's lurking?

And fyi, i have a stam dk and i played it

Checkmath · April 2018

@Skander
you cant agree with your own posts....

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Chilly-McFreeze

The arc or animation of the skill isn't all that important. Generally the hardest part is picking what is a valid location to move to, then the animation plays out to that.

@ak_pvp

And against MagDK's I can see that working. Not really against StamDK's who have access to gapclosers, cheaper snare removal and a larger stamina pool.

Skander · April 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

@Skander
you cant agree with your own posts....

Actually it wound't be that op

Take flight is used 80% of the time as a burst ultimate instad of a flight, would be cool to see dragonknights actually leaping into combat instead of just using this as a meteor or dawnbreaker

ak_pvp · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@ak_pvp

And against MagDK's I can see that working. Not really against StamDK's who have access to gapclosers, cheaper snare removal and a larger stamina pool.

A StamDK wouldn't have the ability to keep wings up constantly, and would instead use it for the occasional snare removal and the defense as extra. Thus dropping FM for rally.

Nearly every spec uses a gapcloser anyway, not sure how making wings better as a snare removal/defense for escape makes it any harder on ranged, if a ranged build can still counter both Stam and Mag DKs. DKs generally want a more active defense/escape instead of relying on ultimate.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@Skander

Then it would still make it a burst ultimate, all you'd be doing is incentivising Snipe+Leap Oneshot builds onto a tanky class.

@ak_pvp

Yeah, Momentum is the cheaper snare removal.

This aint about replacing the Wings change with this change. But differentiating DK abilities from other classes. (as well adding in some ability types that it lacks, and are generally attained in every other class in some manner, IE escape)

Edit: My initial concern is against the idea of Snare Immunity with a skill like wings. Snare Removal is fine. But depending on the duration of the Snare Immunity it will negate entire builds, or be too little to really even matter. Whereas Removal is responding in kind, Immunity is ignoring entirely. That kind of thing shouldn't be easily attained without some kind of downside.

Skander · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Skander

Then it would still make it a burst ultimate, all you'd be doing is incentivising Snipe+Leap Oneshot builds onto a tanky class.

@ak_pvp

Yeah, Momentum is the cheaper snare removal.

This aint about replacing the Wings change with this change. But differentiating DK abilities from other classes. (as well adding in some ability types that it lacks, and are generally attained in every other class in some manner, IE escape)

Edit: My initial concern is against the idea of Snare Immunity with a skill like wings. Snare Removal is fine. But depending on the duration of the Snare Immunity it will negate entire builds, or be too little to really even matter. Whereas Removal is responding in kind, Immunity is ignoring entirely. That kind of thing shouldn't be easily attained without some kind of downside.

it wound't, becouse it's used when a person in low, if you charge from a distance you won't kill the enemy, you will hard hit him.
Or yeah, if that particular stamina guy with 30% hp and snare immunity dies becouse he's running at 11000km/h without any restrictions becouse stamina can, you should be able to kill him with leap

ak_pvp · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Skander

Then it would still make it a burst ultimate, all you'd be doing is incentivising Snipe+Leap Oneshot builds onto a tanky class.

@ak_pvp

Yeah, Momentum is the cheaper snare removal.

This aint about replacing the Wings change with this change. But differentiating DK abilities from other classes. (as well adding in some ability types that it lacks, and are generally attained in every other class in some manner, IE escape)

Edit: My initial concern is against the idea of Snare Immunity with a skill like wings. Snare Removal is fine. But depending on the duration of the Snare Immunity it will negate entire builds, or be too little to really even matter. Whereas Removal is responding in kind, Immunity is ignoring entirely. That kind of thing shouldn't be easily attained without some kind of downside.

Yeah, don't get me wrong its cool as hell. And would be a nice change of pace. Especially if they uncap the height restrictions. So a sorc can get to places other classes cannot with a short ranged streak, or a preplaced shade, but do it often. And a DK can occasionally fly to somewhere high to reposition.

I just don't think its that necessary or useful, and if it happens, then DK won't see another buff for ages, you know how ZOS views them.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@ak_pvp

Yeah, TBH I wish I had more experience with the sorc streak skill in cyro. Cause I hear there are a lot of problems with it, and I'd like to know why/how they're caused. Such that this would be better implemented.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2018

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@ak_pvp

Yeah, TBH I wish I had more experience with the sorc streak skill in cyro. Cause I hear there are a lot of problems with it, and I'd like to know why/how they're caused. Such that this would be better implemented.

Uneven terrain sometimes prevents it's entirely or shortens it noticeably. It kills your momentum, like a short selfroot at the beginning and the end. So if the terrain goes down, you drop on the spot instead of forward and down. Even if it is used on even terrain, you feel that you have to take up speed again afterwards. And there is a short delay before it goes off. It doesn't put you out of gap closer range, so it's easily countered once your opponent comes into melee range (mind the steep fatigue). Snares still take a toll on your escape, even with streak.

These are the main pain points.

DeadlyRecluse · April 2018

This sounds cool, but also like a buggy mess.

Also how frustrating would it be when you target an enemy player, hold the button a split second too long, and end up taking a potato leap at your own feet lol.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

@DeadlyRecluse

Yup. That is pretty much why I think that this is awesome, but very, very unlikely to ever be considered as something feasible.