Palefang wrote: »

I still don't get why Briarhear over Hunding, while Hunding = 100% uptime Briarheart.
Do I miss something ?

I don't think TFS is such a big option. We can run the lover boon, and ready to go. We can aslo grind pen from Kragh (which is what I run, over Velidreth) or the off-hand weapon (sharpened).

Speaking of pen, I think I'll go by :
5200 Major debuff
4200 Lover
2100 Crusher-infused (only in raid)
3000 Alkosh (only in raid, can't be 100% uptime) -> Let's say 60% uptime (2 Alkoshs), for a mean of 1800
= 13300
So, you have 4900 pen to find. My option will be : 1487 in Kra'gh and around 3600 in CP. I don't mind overpen since both Alkosh and Crusher won't reallistically be on 100% uptime.

Ofc, you can trade Lover for Warrior and run TFS. Only drawback is that you'll HAVE TO run TFS on 5 armor pieces. It's a bit too rough trying to get the uptime right with daggers (too much weapon swaps).

Vicious gives you a really big sustain at a really small cost. I guess it will never be the best all-in-dps set, but it's a really nice compromise. Only BIG drawback is that you can't run VO with WM or Alkosh (perhaps some of us will have to run Alkosh themselves).

I don't like all direct damages proc sets, like Defiler, since they have a very low ceiling.

Invigoration ? Meh. XD Easter joke ?


EDIT :
About TBS. That's 4100 pen (roughly TFS) but with 2 useless bonuses. So, I think TFS is waaaay better.

Palefang wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Briarheart because its on dw bar. When i equip that on dw the effective damage value of the set wont drop as much as hundings. Hundings will drop around 40-50% of its weapon damage when equiped as weapons, while briarheart should only have a decrease of 10-20%. so the effective value of briarheart still will be above 200, while hundings drops below 200, to around 170-150. Since i am running VO with it, i want vo to be active at all times. But if you are going with WM stick with hundings active at all times.

That's really insightful !

But on the other hand, do we really need to max our mean weapon damage ?
I mean, whether we play War Machine or not, we will still do something like : refresh all DoTs from Back Bar then ult (about 35% of the time ?) then go back Main Bar and burst like crazy (Assassin's Will, Surprise Attack...). During that time, Weapon Damage is way more valuable than the weapon damage we have while we are on back bar, since we deal both the damage from BB DoTs, and Direct Damages.

I think Briarheart really depends WHEN it is triggered. I'll do the math for myself, but please correct it if I'm wrong somewhere, I'm not so good.

I'll go with my numbers (VO weapons + full-time Hunding) :
I'm 62% of the time MAIN BAR, which results in 70% of my total DPS.
I'm 38% of the time BACK BAR, which results in 30% of my total DPS.
(I do NOT count proc sets, since they are not empowered by weapon damage, and that's what we want to talk about.)
(The numbers on MAIN BAR are really high, but remember I'm way more often on main bar, and I run nightblade ultimate just before going back to main bar. Also, the finisher phase is a lot of time on the main bar.)

When we speak about Weapon Damage mean, of course, Hunding is only something like 180 WD since it's lost on back bar. But if we speak about total damage increase to DPS, it's 210.

Then, speaking of Briarheart, what really bugs me is the 15s cooldown.
A "perfect" nigthblade stam rotation would be close to 10-11s (for Endless Hail and Poison Injection uptime), and a "good" one can be about 12s (less efficient, but rely on Caltrops uptime). I'm personnally at about 12s (my priority goes management of Assassin's Will when it's up, and I often delay by 1s or so my coming back to back bar).
So, if we speak about a 10 or 12s rotation, it means that Briarheart WILL miss some procs. Let's see : if you proc Briarheart on 1st second on main bar, you'll have to way the 3rd second of the 2nd rotation for it to be again proccable. You have then a window of 4s to proc it. Fine. But you lost the 3 first second on main bar with no boosts. Then, next rotation : no window to proc it. And if you can by staying 1s more on main bar, the proc will basically be used while you are on back bar.

Overall, you will miss sometimes some proc and delay the time by which you can proc it by up to 5s. It would be great to see what is the overall time proc of this set (you say about 80-90% of the time, but is that really so on 6M practice target, when the fight last longer ?).

It would be really insightful to get the active time of Briarheart on both main bar and back bar.

Palefang wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

briarheart is still bad if ur stam acuity war machine is the way to go.

as for OP having magika parse equally to you in raids will mean that they will replace you not be on equal grounds have fun being forced into a magika class if you want to continue to raid.

Ahem... If you have a reliable 78% crit chance, I don't think Acuity is the way to go, as you say
Magicka Nightblade are more dependant to cumulative procs and they have way lower crit, that's why Acuity is so good. I wouldn't run it on Khajiit Stamblade thus. The gain is too thin, especially when you can cumulate other bonkers sources of damages.

Regarding to magicka... so salty ! xD
You can speak of top of the top best guilds which will improve to the last bit. I'm in a competitive guild, and you can run whatever you want as long as it does its job. As long as stam toons keep doing the job (and they will), they will be a viable choice.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Palefang wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Briarheart because its on dw bar. When i equip that on dw the effective damage value of the set wont drop as much as hundings. Hundings will drop around 40-50% of its weapon damage when equiped as weapons, while briarheart should only have a decrease of 10-20%. so the effective value of briarheart still will be above 200, while hundings drops below 200, to around 170-150. Since i am running VO with it, i want vo to be active at all times. But if you are going with WM stick with hundings active at all times.

That's really insightful !

But on the other hand, do we really need to max our mean weapon damage ?
I mean, whether we play War Machine or not, we will still do something like : refresh all DoTs from Back Bar then ult (about 35% of the time ?) then go back Main Bar and burst like crazy (Assassin's Will, Surprise Attack...). During that time, Weapon Damage is way more valuable than the weapon damage we have while we are on back bar, since we deal both the damage from BB DoTs, and Direct Damages.

I think Briarheart really depends WHEN it is triggered. I'll do the math for myself, but please correct it if I'm wrong somewhere, I'm not so good.

I'll go with my numbers (VO weapons + full-time Hunding) :
I'm 62% of the time MAIN BAR, which results in 70% of my total DPS.
I'm 38% of the time BACK BAR, which results in 30% of my total DPS.
(I do NOT count proc sets, since they are not empowered by weapon damage, and that's what we want to talk about.)
(The numbers on MAIN BAR are really high, but remember I'm way more often on main bar, and I run nightblade ultimate just before going back to main bar. Also, the finisher phase is a lot of time on the main bar.)

When we speak about Weapon Damage mean, of course, Hunding is only something like 180 WD since it's lost on back bar. But if we speak about total damage increase to DPS, it's 210.

Then, speaking of Briarheart, what really bugs me is the 15s cooldown.
A "perfect" nigthblade stam rotation would be close to 10-11s (for Endless Hail and Poison Injection uptime), and a "good" one can be about 12s (less efficient, but rely on Caltrops uptime). I'm personnally at about 12s (my priority goes management of Assassin's Will when it's up, and I often delay by 1s or so my coming back to back bar).
So, if we speak about a 10 or 12s rotation, it means that Briarheart WILL miss some procs. Let's see : if you proc Briarheart on 1st second on main bar, you'll have to way the 3rd second of the 2nd rotation for it to be again proccable. You have then a window of 4s to proc it. Fine. But you lost the 3 first second on main bar with no boosts. Then, next rotation : no window to proc it. And if you can by staying 1s more on main bar, the proc will basically be used while you are on back bar.

Overall, you will miss sometimes some proc and delay the time by which you can proc it by up to 5s. It would be great to see what is the overall time proc of this set (you say about 80-90% of the time, but is that really so on 6M practice target, when the fight last longer ?).

It would be really insightful to get the active time of Briarheart on both main bar and back bar.

briarheart is still bad if ur stam acuity war machine is the way to go.

as for OP having magika parse equally to you in raids will mean that they will replace you not be on equal grounds have fun being forced into a magika class if you want to continue to raid.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Palefang wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Briarheart because its on dw bar. When i equip that on dw the effective damage value of the set wont drop as much as hundings. Hundings will drop around 40-50% of its weapon damage when equiped as weapons, while briarheart should only have a decrease of 10-20%. so the effective value of briarheart still will be above 200, while hundings drops below 200, to around 170-150. Since i am running VO with it, i want vo to be active at all times. But if you are going with WM stick with hundings active at all times.

That's really insightful !

But on the other hand, do we really need to max our mean weapon damage ?
I mean, whether we play War Machine or not, we will still do something like : refresh all DoTs from Back Bar then ult (about 35% of the time ?) then go back Main Bar and burst like crazy (Assassin's Will, Surprise Attack...). During that time, Weapon Damage is way more valuable than the weapon damage we have while we are on back bar, since we deal both the damage from BB DoTs, and Direct Damages.

I think Briarheart really depends WHEN it is triggered. I'll do the math for myself, but please correct it if I'm wrong somewhere, I'm not so good.

I'll go with my numbers (VO weapons + full-time Hunding) :
I'm 62% of the time MAIN BAR, which results in 70% of my total DPS.
I'm 38% of the time BACK BAR, which results in 30% of my total DPS.
(I do NOT count proc sets, since they are not empowered by weapon damage, and that's what we want to talk about.)
(The numbers on MAIN BAR are really high, but remember I'm way more often on main bar, and I run nightblade ultimate just before going back to main bar. Also, the finisher phase is a lot of time on the main bar.)

When we speak about Weapon Damage mean, of course, Hunding is only something like 180 WD since it's lost on back bar. But if we speak about total damage increase to DPS, it's 210.

Then, speaking of Briarheart, what really bugs me is the 15s cooldown.
A "perfect" nigthblade stam rotation would be close to 10-11s (for Endless Hail and Poison Injection uptime), and a "good" one can be about 12s (less efficient, but rely on Caltrops uptime). I'm personnally at about 12s (my priority goes management of Assassin's Will when it's up, and I often delay by 1s or so my coming back to back bar).
So, if we speak about a 10 or 12s rotation, it means that Briarheart WILL miss some procs. Let's see : if you proc Briarheart on 1st second on main bar, you'll have to way the 3rd second of the 2nd rotation for it to be again proccable. You have then a window of 4s to proc it. Fine. But you lost the 3 first second on main bar with no boosts. Then, next rotation : no window to proc it. And if you can by staying 1s more on main bar, the proc will basically be used while you are on back bar.

Overall, you will miss sometimes some proc and delay the time by which you can proc it by up to 5s. It would be great to see what is the overall time proc of this set (you say about 80-90% of the time, but is that really so on 6M practice target, when the fight last longer ?).

It would be really insightful to get the active time of Briarheart on both main bar and back bar.

briarheart is still bad if ur stam acuity war machine is the way to go.

as for OP having magika parse equally to you in raids will mean that they will replace you not be on equal grounds have fun being forced into a magika class if you want to continue to raid.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Palefang wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Briarheart because its on dw bar. When i equip that on dw the effective damage value of the set wont drop as much as hundings. Hundings will drop around 40-50% of its weapon damage when equiped as weapons, while briarheart should only have a decrease of 10-20%. so the effective value of briarheart still will be above 200, while hundings drops below 200, to around 170-150. Since i am running VO with it, i want vo to be active at all times. But if you are going with WM stick with hundings active at all times.

That's really insightful !

But on the other hand, do we really need to max our mean weapon damage ?
I mean, whether we play War Machine or not, we will still do something like : refresh all DoTs from Back Bar then ult (about 35% of the time ?) then go back Main Bar and burst like crazy (Assassin's Will, Surprise Attack...). During that time, Weapon Damage is way more valuable than the weapon damage we have while we are on back bar, since we deal both the damage from BB DoTs, and Direct Damages.

I think Briarheart really depends WHEN it is triggered. I'll do the math for myself, but please correct it if I'm wrong somewhere, I'm not so good.

I'll go with my numbers (VO weapons + full-time Hunding) :
I'm 62% of the time MAIN BAR, which results in 70% of my total DPS.
I'm 38% of the time BACK BAR, which results in 30% of my total DPS.
(I do NOT count proc sets, since they are not empowered by weapon damage, and that's what we want to talk about.)
(The numbers on MAIN BAR are really high, but remember I'm way more often on main bar, and I run nightblade ultimate just before going back to main bar. Also, the finisher phase is a lot of time on the main bar.)

When we speak about Weapon Damage mean, of course, Hunding is only something like 180 WD since it's lost on back bar. But if we speak about total damage increase to DPS, it's 210.

Then, speaking of Briarheart, what really bugs me is the 15s cooldown.
A "perfect" nigthblade stam rotation would be close to 10-11s (for Endless Hail and Poison Injection uptime), and a "good" one can be about 12s (less efficient, but rely on Caltrops uptime). I'm personnally at about 12s (my priority goes management of Assassin's Will when it's up, and I often delay by 1s or so my coming back to back bar).
So, if we speak about a 10 or 12s rotation, it means that Briarheart WILL miss some procs. Let's see : if you proc Briarheart on 1st second on main bar, you'll have to way the 3rd second of the 2nd rotation for it to be again proccable. You have then a window of 4s to proc it. Fine. But you lost the 3 first second on main bar with no boosts. Then, next rotation : no window to proc it. And if you can by staying 1s more on main bar, the proc will basically be used while you are on back bar.

Overall, you will miss sometimes some proc and delay the time by which you can proc it by up to 5s. It would be great to see what is the overall time proc of this set (you say about 80-90% of the time, but is that really so on 6M practice target, when the fight last longer ?).

It would be really insightful to get the active time of Briarheart on both main bar and back bar.

briarheart is still bad if ur stam acuity war machine is the way to go.

as for OP having magika parse equally to you in raids will mean that they will replace you not be on equal grounds have fun being forced into a magika class if you want to continue to raid.

Have to concur with this statement. As a stam dps, our main strength in trials has been our ability to do higher single target damage due to the combination of sets that can almost completely wipe out physical resistance. The trade off for this higher single target is not having shields, and being closer to the focal point of damage.

With that gone, stam in trials will be a dying breed. Light armor already has built in 5k pen, so now they have the most survivability, higher damage potential, and higher sustain. Yes, we can run lover, but at the cost of 365 Weapon damage. Stamina already are already shunned in VAS. With this new raid being “movement heavy,” what resources we have will be spent likely on mechanics, and not on actual damage (as ours are from the same pool).

Palefang wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Veiled heritance > briarheart > hundings

Especially in summerset where you can transmute the jewellery to robust.

Heritance has 80% Uptime from front bar, so gives 320 wd.

I did the whole calculation this afternoon, and I'm not dropping so called "facts", high and mighty, without justification.
(I'm not speaking especially of you Masel92).

Basically, Briarheart is less efficient than Hunding. Even at 75% crit, every hit is 0,075 chance to proc hit, and with 6-7 DoTs + LA + skill, this is 'only' 0,46 chance to proc each second.
46% proc chance 1st second,
30% 2nd second,
15% 3rd second,
and so forth, I calculated 2,1s as a mean of proc timer. Of course, in situation, there will be times when it's waaaaaay lower, and times when it's higer.

If I'm not mistaken, the ideal time we are on back bar is 4s (unless we ult and refresh siphoning) and total rotation is about 10-11s. But then, most of the time, Briar will be on CD during your whole 2nd cycle.
(Proc 2nd sec, front bar, then active 4s front, active 4s back (at least !), active 2s front CD front and... we have to switch. So no 3rd proc during 2nd rotation !)
If you correlate that you do 70% of your total damages while front bar, Hunding is 210 damages, while, in optimized cycle, Briar won't reach 200.

At least, there are my mates' and my calculations.

What seems appealing to me is Veiled heritance IF you can refresh it before the buff expire. Otherwise, it will suffer the same problem as Briar : it won't be optimized in our rotation, you'll probably have to switch before refreshing it for having it while being back bar.

I haven't discussed this, but I'm not sure about VO Main Bar. Because it means running our nightblade ultimate front bar. We lose the bonus from dawnbringer, and I honestly don't know if it's worth it or not.
@Septimus_Magna : VO and WM don't stack very well, they both have the same named unique 3p passive (minor slayer).

The_Outsider wrote: »

The strat behind acuity is very subtle. 100% crit in a window wthl all of dots running --> Incap --> surprise attack spam will likely net you more damage than ~75 crit all the time. Remeber you still have ~60% crit w/o the proc.

Put another way, running acuity weapons: the proc is controlled so that it only goes off on your DW bar when you are ready to fire your bow, and weave with SA/Killer's Blade. This results in an insane amount of damage in that window that you would otherwise miss out on with only ~75% crit.

I might go test this further tomorrow, but I don't really know how to do it with any sort of control.

techprince wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Palefang wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Briarheart because its on dw bar. When i equip that on dw the effective damage value of the set wont drop as much as hundings. Hundings will drop around 40-50% of its weapon damage when equiped as weapons, while briarheart should only have a decrease of 10-20%. so the effective value of briarheart still will be above 200, while hundings drops below 200, to around 170-150. Since i am running VO with it, i want vo to be active at all times. But if you are going with WM stick with hundings active at all times.

That's really insightful !

But on the other hand, do we really need to max our mean weapon damage ?
I mean, whether we play War Machine or not, we will still do something like : refresh all DoTs from Back Bar then ult (about 35% of the time ?) then go back Main Bar and burst like crazy (Assassin's Will, Surprise Attack...). During that time, Weapon Damage is way more valuable than the weapon damage we have while we are on back bar, since we deal both the damage from BB DoTs, and Direct Damages.

I think Briarheart really depends WHEN it is triggered. I'll do the math for myself, but please correct it if I'm wrong somewhere, I'm not so good.

I'll go with my numbers (VO weapons + full-time Hunding) :
I'm 62% of the time MAIN BAR, which results in 70% of my total DPS.
I'm 38% of the time BACK BAR, which results in 30% of my total DPS.
(I do NOT count proc sets, since they are not empowered by weapon damage, and that's what we want to talk about.)
(The numbers on MAIN BAR are really high, but remember I'm way more often on main bar, and I run nightblade ultimate just before going back to main bar. Also, the finisher phase is a lot of time on the main bar.)

When we speak about Weapon Damage mean, of course, Hunding is only something like 180 WD since it's lost on back bar. But if we speak about total damage increase to DPS, it's 210.

Then, speaking of Briarheart, what really bugs me is the 15s cooldown.
A "perfect" nigthblade stam rotation would be close to 10-11s (for Endless Hail and Poison Injection uptime), and a "good" one can be about 12s (less efficient, but rely on Caltrops uptime). I'm personnally at about 12s (my priority goes management of Assassin's Will when it's up, and I often delay by 1s or so my coming back to back bar).
So, if we speak about a 10 or 12s rotation, it means that Briarheart WILL miss some procs. Let's see : if you proc Briarheart on 1st second on main bar, you'll have to way the 3rd second of the 2nd rotation for it to be again proccable. You have then a window of 4s to proc it. Fine. But you lost the 3 first second on main bar with no boosts. Then, next rotation : no window to proc it. And if you can by staying 1s more on main bar, the proc will basically be used while you are on back bar.

Overall, you will miss sometimes some proc and delay the time by which you can proc it by up to 5s. It would be great to see what is the overall time proc of this set (you say about 80-90% of the time, but is that really so on 6M practice target, when the fight last longer ?).

It would be really insightful to get the active time of Briarheart on both main bar and back bar.

briarheart is still bad if ur stam acuity war machine is the way to go.

as for OP having magika parse equally to you in raids will mean that they will replace you not be on equal grounds have fun being forced into a magika class if you want to continue to raid.

No, acuity is of less use on a nightblade or a khajiit.

Your far of base there. It's not as good on a khajit yes but very few ppl actually play stamblade khajit now anyways this doesn't matter. Despite that it is still better. I'd like some proof of it being bad or less effective. Because spreading misinformation doesn't help someone that's new to the game and wants to optimise there build for raids. Acuity out performs hundings in most scenarios and hundings outperforms briarheart pretty much always. Briarheart is in need of a buff to useable.

Its not "still better". I can reach up 97% crit chance with thief mundus and 87% crit chance without it, why the the *** would anyone with brains use acuity in this case? Like use common sense? Hundings will be consistent damage only if you keep it active on both bars. If not then briarheart wins as the proc carries over. So VO/WM+Briarheart with VO/WM active on both bars OR WM+Hundings with Hundings active on both bars perfoms higher on a khajiit nightblade.
Do some research, stop spreading wrong information.

Your using the thief mundus? Like if your going into your build doing what your doing yeah don't use acuity but for every one else your total off base. What kinda number do you hit with this setup seriously tho if your at or over 70k single tgt on rako tu and valerial then I'll concede and say your build has merit if not your gimping yourself on purpose. I'm not the one spreading inaccurate information here yo acuity wm or acuity vo is what ppl are using on stamblades atm if your a khajit stamblade you've already messed up there but even with that using acuity is still better.

"I am total off base" lul. Did i say i was using thief mundus? Are you drunk? I gave you real example of my crit chance with and without mundus and explained why acuity is horrible on a khajiit stamblade. This isnt rocket science, this is common sense which you seem to lack. By stating "khajiit nightblade is messed up" just proves you have no idea of the game itself and you are just being a sheep and following "meta" without thinking at all. And this thread is about Summerset builds and you are showing parses with sunderflame.... I guess you didn't read prePTS changes.

https://youtu.be/Hk7lPsPsNIo

Aztlan wrote: »

This one does not approve of all the rudeness and anti-khajiit feeling toward the OP. Just because that one is khajiit and has to heavy attack now and then doesn't mean he (or she) is the scum of the earth. By the way, a certain @Gilliamtherogue is also khajiit, you know.