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DoT meta shouldn't be only meta

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO
Before we start, I'm not saying dot meta shouldn't be viable as well.

I really enjoy PvE content in almost all MMOs, and it's really fun in ESO, too, but I'm getting more and more into end game now after leveling and I've tried every way possible to avoid dot management and it's just not possible to hit the numbers required.

I feel less punished in other games, because I can pick a play style, sometimes even a theme (though I'd just accept playstyle at this point in ESO), and still compete with a viable build. Some classes offer direct damage, some offer combo based, some offer DoT based, etc.

In ESO, there is only one consistent aspect across all PVE builds I see: Heavy reliance and focus on DoTs to hit max potential.

I don't know if it's because they're just that much more efficient than direct damage, or what, but I feel something needs to change to enable more than just bow back bar + caltrops + trap in literally every stamina build, because I hate DoT management. It's just not fun or engaging to me.
  • Mureel
    Mureel
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    Why not? It makes perfect sense to put dot things down whilst you go on doing your other damage.

    Dots are entirely sensible.

    Unless we get some strong strong debuffs to replace them, I cannot see that changing.
  • b.bredfeldtub17_ESO
    It's simply a stylistic choice.

    First off I prefer reactive and action oriented combat as opposed to monitoring and maintaining buffs/debuffs.
    Combo systems make for interesting gameplay and rotations without the need to monitor stuff. Proc based gameplay achieves the same. Just doing things directly that don't require me to monitor constantly.

    I know that you can just get a muscle memory rotation going for DoT timing and such as well, but knowing my damage is coming from a DoT versus me actively smacking the thing just doesn't sit right. Probably because...

    Secondly, character archetype matters a great deal to me. They solved one of the original cruxes I had with the game in that I can at least LOOK like I'm wearing heavy armor now while not suffering a performance hit, but the same can't be said for weapons. I switch to a bow, I'm now XxLegolasxX#1278523 instead of a badass using a big melee 2h, guts style, to crush my enemies.
  • Checkmath
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    Its easy to explain why dots are always used. Because most dots deal more damage over their full time than direct damage abilities. Thats why all rotations consist of the hardest hitting dots followed by a few direct damage abilities to make the rotation complete. If there is an ability hitting harder than all those dots, then you would deal more damage by only using that skill. This results in a boring gameplay without any skill.
  • b.bredfeldtub17_ESO
    That's only due to a few other key aspects of combat in ESO, coupled with a lack of imagination on your part.

    I listed numerous ways around that problem already, it just happens that ESO doesn't have any of those.

    No cooldowns on skills, no real combo system, etc.

    I do think within the current context of how eso combat works that more intense resource management (those hard hitting skills deplete you faster so you have to heavy attack weave or something) could offer the "complexity" you seem to think DoT management adds. Really, all it is is an excuse to bar swap (just a button press) and spam more skills (again more button presses).

    I get that executing a rotation is more complex than just spamming a skill, but it's still a learned pattern that eventually becomes muscle memory and might as well be spamming the same key. If you're gonna tout skill as a reason, nothing beats reaction time and prediction in a dynamic combat scenario. Since the latter is only present in PvP (and only really matters in 1v1 or small group, not the typical zerg cyro PvP is), for PvE, that means the pinnacle in skill play comes down to reaction, which ESO offers basically nothing of since procs are non-existent and bosses are all scripted.
  • Kingslayer513
    Kingslayer513
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    These meta complaint threads are getting too abstract. DoT meta? What even is that? Certainly not a thing in ESO.

    Nearly all DD follow a pattern of buff, apply DoTs, spam direct damage, rinse and repeat. Some classes lean more towards buffs + DoTs, others lean more towards direct damage. Regardless, you must utilize many components of your toolkit to achieve max dps.

    The combo system you described in other posts is already what exists in PVP, where burst matters. I can't envision it working in PVE, especially not on a 100 million health boss. You can't burst your way through endgame PVE. DoTs follow naturally from optimizing PVE dps: you apply DoTs and let them do their thing, MEANWHILE you hit the enemies with direct damage while the DoTs are still active. This is just logical combat IMO. There isn't a reasonable theoretical alternative.
  • b.bredfeldtub17_ESO
    There is an alternative if DoTs if they worked differently. Or if, as Checkmath said, they were less efficient than their direct damage counterparts, or if using dots oom'd you as fast as using DD attacks, etc.

    There are numerous ways of getting this. I'm an avid believer in build diversity and picking your poison so to speak. If I focus 100% of my stats on direct damage stuff, I shouldn't ever have to touch a dot because my direct damage attacks are just that much more efficient use of my resources.

    The fact that, regardless of build or stats, everything still uses bow as stamina should be telling.

    Build diversity should be a thing. You want to bleed/poison/direct damage/etc, you focus it and whatever you pick comes out about even with someone else who picked something different.

    What's the point in having all these skills if 90% of them get ignored because they're so outclassed by others and the meta is well over 2x what other builds are capable of?
  • Runefang
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    I do agree, most MMO dps classes have a distinct feel to them.

    Some are DoT users which produces a consistent stream of damage. The downside is you have to spend time setting it all up, and if the boss has interrupts which causes you to be unable to refresh your dots you have to start all over again.

    Some are bursty types, all the skills are just a prelude to something/s proccing which allow you to unleash a huge burst of damage in a small window.

    Some are a mix with some dots followed by short burst windows.

    These choices in classes are meaningful in 'how' it feels to play, this goes beyond what the graphic effects look like. It lets you decide if you're a slow and steady DoT'er or you're a twitchy burst player.
    These meta complaint threads are getting too abstract. DoT meta? What even is that? Certainly not a thing in ESO.

    Nearly all DD follow a pattern of buff, apply DoTs, spam direct damage, rinse and repeat. Some classes lean more towards buffs + DoTs, others lean more towards direct damage. Regardless, you must utilize many components of your toolkit to achieve max dps.

    You said the DoT meta isn't a thing and then said nearly all (it's actually all in pve) DD follow the same pattern. There are minor differences between classes, but its the same general feel. I doubt this problem will be solved though given ESOs very loose class design approach.
  • waitwhat
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    Yeah @b.bredfeldtub17_ESO is right about this. DoT builds being the META is entirely a stylistic choice on ESO's part.

    It might be hard to imagine if you haven't played other MMOs, but there are games where burst damage builds are equally as effective at killing raid bosses as builds that stack damage over time. The burst damage of their attacks compensates for the slight downtime in damage when they re-cast. In ESO though, because of lag, constrained dev resources, and the embrace of weaving (not actual ani-cancelling but weaving), the time between casts really adds up, so we use DoT builds because the burst just can't compensate for the downtime without nuking pvp. In some games, the damage over time builds are even more effective in PvP, which shouldn't shock too many people. (Also, a fair number of games do balance PvP and PvE differently, so you can have ultra-high burst in PvE without annihilating PvP, but don't tell anyone.)

    I don't have that much of an issue with the meta being DoT focused (there's a lot more to hate about the meta IMO), but I did always notice bemusedly.
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  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    There are numerous ways of getting this. I'm an avid believer in build diversity and picking your poison so to speak. If I focus 100% of my stats on direct damage stuff, I shouldn't ever have to touch a dot because my direct damage attacks are just that much more efficient use of my resources.

    Except that in the very narrow scope of endgame PvE DPS role in an optimized trial group, there will always be one best setup.

    I understand what you describe but i don't think there is a realistic solution to you problem. :|

    Aznox
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  • b.bredfeldtub17_ESO
    I'm not asking for perfection; I know that's unreasonable. But I can't imagine a build even approaching 30k without some of the mandatory DoTs, let alone 40k. The discrepancy between skills and meta vs non-meta is just that staggering.
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