How much does race matter for hardcore raiding?

Azyle1 · April 2018

Having a discussion with some people over this -

How much does race matter to complete veteran trials/hardmodes?

I argue that race doesn't matter nearly as much as fundamental class understanding. Some people say it matters more than just a little, that an Argonian stamblade will not complete hardcore content. A Nord templar will not do vMAW.

Your thoughts?

Note: This is all coming from the guy (me) that does whatever they can to do more DPS than "you".

Aliyavana · April 2018

arguably not much but two people of the same skill the person with the min/maxed race will outperform but not by much

Azyle1 · April 2018

aliyavana wrote: »

arguably not much but two people of the same skill the person with the min/maxed race will outperform but not by much

Right.

So I was arguing with a dude who said I was leading people "down the wrong path" by saying that race doesn't make or break you.

I play a khajiit stamblade, which honestly, is a good combo, but I only do it because I like all things Khajiit. I could switch to RG and do more dps, but I don't like them.

So I do 46K on a 3 million dummy. If I take all my passives out and do 44 or 43K.. I will no longer be able to complete vet trials/HMs? REALLY?

Yakidafi · April 2018

Not complete with an argonian stamblade? #Gitgud

Pink_Violinz · April 2018

Well, a lot of it is resources. If you're making a magblade, redguard isn't going to help you keep your magic up whatsoever. There is also the problem of damage passives. High elves and dark elves also get large bonuses to elemental damage, while redguard will help you... keep your stam up. Which is pointless on a mag dd.

In your case, yes Argonians have great sustain. They also have great heals. But they lack anything that increases their damage, unlike the guy who's bis-race. Chances are, if you both do a dps test and do the exact same roto, the bis-race guy will do a few k more.

Yes, it is possible to complete just about anything on a non-bis race. But it's much harder, and usually not worth the effort.

Furcula · April 2018

If your goal is simply to complete vet trials, then any race and any class will work. However, many trial guilds will not take you for more difficult content such as vAS hm unless you are BiS because otherwise, you are not maximizing your contribution to the team.

If you plan on doing "hardcore" raiding, then be prepared to conform to the meta and make BiS characters.

Tannus15 · April 2018

depends. there are not the best race and there is completely wrong race.

A Breton sorc might get 1k to 2k less dps than an Altmer sorc.
An Orc sorc might be 4k to 5k dps less than an Altmer sorc.

Multiply that by 8 dps and it's a significant amount of missing dps which might stop your group from progressing.

If my trials group was struggling to clear content then I would look at what % all the DPS are doing and have a chat to the lower % to see what they can do to fix that.
If the Argonian Stamblade was pulling 16% of the DPS, that's not where I would start, it would be the 8% redguard stam sorc who is dead all the time.
However if the nord templar is getting 9% and can't seem to improve, then maybe they should consider a race change.

Azyle1 · April 2018

I'd also like to clarify that I am referring to a complete understanding on the class in question.

So someone who knows the ins and outs of their class.

Pink_Violinz · April 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

I'd also like to clarify that I am referring to a complete understanding on the class in question.

So someone who knows the ins and outs of their class.

Yes, knowledge will always trump race. But if you *also* have an amazing class genius on the team, who is bis race, they will do more damage. And if the day comes where you have to choose between the same roto, gear, and skill, that dude who made the bis race will be chosen because he is automatically doing more damage. Choosing something like argonian, which doesn't offer any extra dps, will always be crippling yourself damage-wise for no reason.

Azyle1 · April 2018

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I'd also like to clarify that I am referring to a complete understanding on the class in question.

So someone who knows the ins and outs of their class.

Yes, knowledge will always trump race. But if you *also* have an amazing class genius on the team, who is bis race, they will do more damage. And if the day comes where you have to choose between the same roto, gear, and skill, that dude who made the bis race will be chosen because he is automatically doing more damage. Choosing something like argonian, which doesn't offer any extra dps, will always be crippling yourself damage-wise for no reason.

No I get what you are saying. What I am kind of asking is - Can it be done? Can you clear difficult content with proper knowledge, gear and etc, but have a ridiculous race option?

Pink_Violinz · April 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I'd also like to clarify that I am referring to a complete understanding on the class in question.

So someone who knows the ins and outs of their class.

Yes, knowledge will always trump race. But if you *also* have an amazing class genius on the team, who is bis race, they will do more damage. And if the day comes where you have to choose between the same roto, gear, and skill, that dude who made the bis race will be chosen because he is automatically doing more damage. Choosing something like argonian, which doesn't offer any extra dps, will always be crippling yourself damage-wise for no reason.

No I get what you are saying. What I am kind of asking is - Can it be done? Can you clear difficult content with proper knowledge, gear and etc, but have a ridiculous race option?

Oh of course. It'll be much harder, but sure. Mostly, the issue will be finding a team who will look past the race. That would probably be your greatest challenge, not the content itself

Azyle1 · April 2018

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I'd also like to clarify that I am referring to a complete understanding on the class in question.

So someone who knows the ins and outs of their class.

Yes, knowledge will always trump race. But if you *also* have an amazing class genius on the team, who is bis race, they will do more damage. And if the day comes where you have to choose between the same roto, gear, and skill, that dude who made the bis race will be chosen because he is automatically doing more damage. Choosing something like argonian, which doesn't offer any extra dps, will always be crippling yourself damage-wise for no reason.

No I get what you are saying. What I am kind of asking is - Can it be done? Can you clear difficult content with proper knowledge, gear and etc, but have a ridiculous race option?

Oh of course. It'll be much harder, but sure. Mostly, the issue will be finding a team who will look past the race. That would probably be your greatest challenge, not the content itself

Good point. Thank you.

Runefang · April 2018

Check @HatchetHaro's Argoninan StamDK, I don't think his class is causing him any problems.

ArchMikem · April 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

So I do 46K on a 3 million dummy. If I take all my passives out and do 44 or 43K.. I will no longer be able to complete vet trials/HMs? REALLY?

I've done vet Trials with 25k before..

Kingslayer513 · April 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

I play a khajiit stamblade, which honestly, is a good combo, but I only do it because I like all things Khajiit. I could switch to RG and do more dps, but I don't like them.

Gilliamtherogue plays a Khajiit stamblade and competes at the highest level of endgame PVE so...

If you like Khajiit, then stick with it

starkerealm · April 2018

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I'd also like to clarify that I am referring to a complete understanding on the class in question.

So someone who knows the ins and outs of their class.

Yes, knowledge will always trump race. But if you *also* have an amazing class genius on the team, who is bis race, they will do more damage. And if the day comes where you have to choose between the same roto, gear, and skill, that dude who made the bis race will be chosen because he is automatically doing more damage. Choosing something like argonian, which doesn't offer any extra dps, will always be crippling yourself damage-wise for no reason.

No I get what you are saying. What I am kind of asking is - Can it be done? Can you clear difficult content with proper knowledge, gear and etc, but have a ridiculous race option?

Oh of course. It'll be much harder, but sure. Mostly, the issue will be finding a team who will look past the race. That would probably be your greatest challenge, not the content itself

Additionally, it's worth remembering that some races will give you secondary support, which can help certain kinds of builds. For example, an Imperial will make a beefier Stam DPS than a Redguard. Not, "you can stand in stupid," durable, but it can be enough to help you survive a few seconds longer, which may be what you need to adjust your strategy.

Same thing applies to that Nord Templar example above. It's going to be more resilient than a Redguard, Khajiit, or Woodelf, but it won't be able to match their damage. Honestly, if they're pulling low numbers, and not improving, race is not the first thing I'd look at.

WrathOfInnos · April 2018

You can definitely complete all the vet trials and even the HM's with any race. The place it really matters is for competitive leaderboards. Are you going to tell the other 11 people in your group that their score has to be lower because you like the look of a certain race? Because race can easily be >10% DPS difference (affects time and score) as well as sustain and survivability (vitality is important for scores).

WakeYourGhost · April 2018

The "Perfect" race will add around .5 - 2k DPS to the "Perfect" rotation for DPS.

Tanks and Healers - It can help supplement for a sub-par set up or build, but only by a tiny bit.

wolfxspice · April 2018

it matters quite a bit, in the exact same the setup the difference between my argonian and dark elf mag-blade is almost 5k thats in a solo parse. that being said 5k isn't gonna be the difference between beating a trial and a wipe, the guy that doesnt know/respect the mechanics is whats gonna wipe it.

Turelus · April 2018

As others have said it makes a difference but doesn't make trials unbeatable.

More DPS means less mechanics. As long as everyone can hit 20-30k and stay alive then you'll do all the content.

Just don't expect time achievements or leader boards.

MjolnirVilkas · April 2018

The player makes the build, not the race.

- Deltia

SaintSubwayy · April 2018

aliyavana wrote: »

arguably not much but two people of the same skill the person with the min/maxed race will outperform but not by much

It can endup in quite a chunck if dps actually
Prob the strongest differenve would be a good magdk. The difference between the max resource and the %flamedmg can stack up pretty darn high. And since magickaskills scale strobgee of max resource than stamina there can be the biggest difference.
Id say that the differencd between a kahjit magdk and a dunmer magdk can be in the 4k+ range. Bit thats the example with prob the biggest difference possible.

Ohtimbar · April 2018

It's really not a big deal at all. I play what I want (orc sorc ftw) and can complete any content at a reasonably high level. Don't get too attached to the meta because it can and will change.

Asardes · April 2018

As long as you pick a race with a bonus in the relevant attribute, you are good to go even for top end guilds.

Ex. if you make that Nord a Stamina Templar he will not be that far behind DPS, since he only has 4% less stamina than a Redguard or Imperial. Compared to a Redguard he has 9% more HP and 6% damage reduction, so he can compensate the lack or recovery by using Dubious Camoran Throne and not falling dangerously low on health. Probably the race will only make up about ~2% DPS variation in this case, which is irrelevant. That's about 800 less DPS on a 40K parse, and the variance between two skeleton parses can be greater than that, not to mention a trial parse under stressful conditions. I've known players who did Orc Stamina DK and Dark Elf Health DK Tank and they are top raiders.

Enslaved · April 2018

Sadly, racial choices do matter. On the other hand, if you do not go for something very exotic compared to actuall BiS, like mSorc Imperial vs mSorc Altmer, or Breton sNB vs Khajiit sNB, the difference is not huge.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · April 2018

It is true that in the end there is a human being playing and that is the key factor. But given the same exact build and gear, you an definitely identify at least 2-3 races that are way above others in specific roles.

90% of the game can be done with any race/role really. But in end-game content you can see the difference. And somehow this makes sense. In the end, it is true to lore that Altmers, for example, are way more skilled with Magicka than other races. Bretons, being a hybrid between Altmers and Nords are also very skilled.

But of course, if you dislike Argonians don't roll one. Do something you like spending time with.

DoonerSeraph · April 2018

Well, in truly "hardcore" settings, where people are trying to do everything perfectly, those few bonuses can matter. Obviously, if you are a exceptional player in skill, knowledge of mechanics and capable of teamwork, race doesn't matter that much. But people will loook at you with a grain of salt on those settings until you "prove yourself".

@Woeler is a very good and experienced tank, and plays a non optimal race (Khajit). I'm pretty sure his raiding teams don't complain about it

kylewwefan · April 2018

Mag OrcSorc 2

Azyle1 wrote: »

Having a discussion with some people over this -

How much does race matter to complete veteran trials/hardmodes?

I argue that race doesn't matter nearly as much as fundamental class understanding. Some people say it matters more than just a little, that an Argonian stamblade will not complete hardcore content. A Nord templar will not do vMAW.

Your thoughts?

Note: This is all coming from the guy (me) that does whatever they can to do more DPS than "you".

Well, it was mentioned jokingly I think in a post on here, but you could pay a little gold for respec, and don’t take any racial passives when you put everything back.

Then parse or play that character for a little while and really get a solid answer.

I’m assuming that no race get any kind of bonus until those passives are taken. I’d be interested for you to report your findings.

HatchetHaro · April 2018

NA's current #1 vAA and #2 vSO scores each have two Argonian stam DDs in them.

Tired of these racial passives tbh. Terribly imbalanced. There's a reason so many people play Altmer.

Merlin13KAGL · April 2018

They matter more than they should, but less than most seem to think.

I think it will affect ease of play more than overall output, honestly.

Mettaricana · April 2018

I semi follow it i know for stam everything red,orc,imperial ,khajiit

But iuse bosmer for my stam sorc having 1800+ recovery is a nice benefit for since i dont really need to use throne to get decent recovery. I would prefer my altmer stam sorc but the zero stamina benefit hurt alot was barely able to clear 30k stam and recovery was abysmal when using bis gear. Ill say it matters but not impossibly id say use a stam race for a stam class maybe not the best stam race or mag race but atleast one thats made to do that role