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The Problem with Shieldbreaker
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »please stop asking for nerfs, people are having Loads of fun right now
Listen, if go to cryodiil right now you will see all classes fighting fairly, no class greater then another, they all dying and killing each other at same pace
if you don't believe me then go to cryodiil main campaign where i am at just watch the fights.
you will see that its just about perfect balance in classes.
come join the fun instead of asking for nerfs.
You are literally asking for sorc nerfs for years. You are literally the driver of the "sorc OP, nerf sorc" train. I remember you once literally asking ZOS to nerf sorcs and cut their dmg in half. Lets just say that you are unfamiliar with the word balance. And the sad part is that even if ZOS nerfed sorcs and cut their dmg in half you would still somehow manage to get 1vXed by them.
Waste of time, Pier. He's posted the EXACT SAME post like, five times since yesterday - that I know of.
He's either trolling, a bot, a TROLL BOT, or farming forum stars.
Point is, he's better left ignored. Useless and uneducated.
Nah, don’t be mean to the kid, it’s possible he’s not a native English speaker or something. It’s not cool to make fun of someone who does their best to communicate in your language.
Make fun of his arguments and the content of his posts, but keep it impersonal.
Oh, I have no problem with his language. It's that he keeps copypasting everything. If he had troubles with English, he would post short paragraphs, but they would change. They would be unique.
I am making fun of what you described - he blubbers the same hollow arguments over and over, ignoring any input he gets from other people, that actually know stuff. And I'd put my money on this attitude being the reason why he's so bad and can't even win with Shieldbreaker against sorcs. And then he's being a hypocrite and suggesting sorcs to adapt (with HoTs and heavy armor
), something HE would never have to, because he "leads us to the truth".
Clear now?
(^_-)0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here's where it all went wrong:
dwemer_paleologist
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
i used all my stamina and all my magicka did all the damage i could as a nightblade duel wield, im vet 12 and the sorcerer was a vet 12. i was with 6 other people and we all stayed close together. that sorcerer did massive damage to us one at a time and when his health got low he simply cast a spell that made his health full instantly.
i was with a vet 8, a vet 10 and a few others that were about lv 45 to vet1.
complete imbalance in eso for the sorcerers and dragonights. it's rediculas.
that sorcerer killed all of us in under 30 seconds.
Edited by dwemer_paleologist on August 5, 2014 2:01PM4 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Here's where it all went wrong:
dwemer_paleologist
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
i used all my stamina and all my magicka did all the damage i could as a nightblade duel wield, im vet 12 and the sorcerer was a vet 12. i was with 6 other people and we all stayed close together. that sorcerer did massive damage to us one at a time and when his health got low he simply cast a spell that made his health full instantly.
i was with a vet 8, a vet 10 and a few others that were about lv 45 to vet1.
complete imbalance in eso for the sorcerers and dragonights. it's rediculas.
that sorcerer killed all of us in under 30 seconds.
Edited by dwemer_paleologist on August 5, 2014 2:01PM
nostalgia3 -
rimmidimdim✭✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »A shieldbreak build makes his build useless against anything but shield users. Let that sink in.
Shieldbreak is fine as is.
It only takes a NB to run SB on Backbar so its actually not a big loss of anything. If you SB defenders are fine with this set then you should also be fine with a set that deals 2100 obli dmg every 0.6 seconds while you are in cloak or dodge rolling or blocking
Yes, I have to be ok with it, cause it does exist. It's a Templars spamable. It's the perfect counter too both those defences you are referring too. One a night blade skill and other all classes can and do. And this skill I'm referring too does way more damage than shieldbreaker. So yes, again, shieldbreaker is fine. As said before there are counters and skills to help combat certain op things. One, being shieldbreaker.
Also you can dodge light attacks. Unless you are saying SB is broken and you cant dodge it. I have no idea about that.Edited by rimmidimdim on March 25, 2018 9:58PM0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »rimmidimdim wrote: »A shieldbreak build makes his build useless against anything but shield users. Let that sink in.
Shieldbreak is fine as is.
It only takes a NB to run SB on Backbar so its actually not a big loss of anything. If you SB defenders are fine with this set then you should also be fine with a set that deals 2100 obli dmg every 0.6 seconds while you are in cloak or dodge rolling or blocking
Yes, I have to be ok with it, cause it does exist. It's a Templars spamable. It's the perfect counter too both those defences you are referring too. One a night blade skill and other all classes can and do. And this skill I'm referring too does way more damage than shieldbreaker. So yes, again, shieldbreaker is fine. As said before there are counters and skills to help combat certain op things. One, being shieldbreaker.
Also you can dodge light attacks. Unless you are saying SB is broken and you cant dodge it. I have no idea about that.
So, you can roll dodge four times in a row, then run out of stamina, and now we call that a counter. Sorry, that’s a pretty stupid thing to say.
I really hope ZOS adds a cloakbreaker set, or a ‘piercing mark’ skill to the Alliance War tree. Then we’ll see how ‘balanced’ shieldbreaker is for the potatoes using it.2 -
rimmidimdim✭✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »rimmidimdim wrote: »A shieldbreak build makes his build useless against anything but shield users. Let that sink in.
Shieldbreak is fine as is.
It only takes a NB to run SB on Backbar so its actually not a big loss of anything. If you SB defenders are fine with this set then you should also be fine with a set that deals 2100 obli dmg every 0.6 seconds while you are in cloak or dodge rolling or blocking
Yes, I have to be ok with it, cause it does exist. It's a Templars spamable. It's the perfect counter too both those defences you are referring too. One a night blade skill and other all classes can and do. And this skill I'm referring too does way more damage than shieldbreaker. So yes, again, shieldbreaker is fine. As said before there are counters and skills to help combat certain op things. One, being shieldbreaker.
Also you can dodge light attacks. Unless you are saying SB is broken and you cant dodge it. I have no idea about that.
So, you can roll dodge four times in a row, then run out of stamina, and now we call that a counter. Sorry, that’s a pretty stupid thing to say.
I really hope ZOS adds a cloakbreaker set, or a ‘piercing mark’ skill to the Alliance War tree. Then we’ll see how ‘balanced’ shieldbreaker is for the potatoes using it.
Ya what I said was stupid. There are not near enough counters too cloak. We need more counters or a armor set that counters cloak, fine bring it in. Maybe everytime a NB cast cloak within ten meters you do 2k Oblivion damage? I'd be fine with that cause you sacrifice Soo much for that set. I absolutely agree. We found a good compromise. Keep shieldbreaker as is and bring this cloak Oblivion damge set in. Call it cloak breaker I guess.
Edit, actually I don't think it's a bad idea. I'm intrigued. Serious.Edited by rimmidimdim on March 25, 2018 10:31PM0 -
rimmidimdim✭✭✭It don't matter what you call my ideas or comments, I believe I'm rational and my arguments sound. Shields are strong. Its why Shieldbreaker was put in. And it's fine cause just using it gimps you otherwise. Even if you build to only have a five piece on back bar it still gimps you. Can't have shacklebreaker on back bar then for example.
But ya bring in some form of cloakbreaker. There are a some good NB builds that don't even slot that skill. There are some good arguments about how broken and op it is. There are some good agruments about how useless it is. Might be a poor connection issue but yes, it's a hard skill too trust, way more difficult to trust than a shield skill. That is a fact. But, still bring in a cloakbreaker. You can drop your spinners or necropotence or Amber plasma or whatever.
Edited by rimmidimdim on March 25, 2018 10:50PM1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »It don't matter what you call my ideas or comments, I believe I'm rational and my arguments sound. Shields are strong. Its why Shieldbreaker was put in. And it's fine cause just using it gimps you otherwise. Even if you build to only have a five piece on back bar it still gimps you. Can't have shacklebreaker on back bar then for example.
But ya bring in some form of cloakbreaker. There are a some good NB builds that don't even slot that skill. There are some good arguments about how broken and op it is. There are some good agruments about how useless it is. Might be a poor connection issue but yes, it's a hard skill too trust, way more difficult to trust than a shield skill. That is a fact. But, still bring in a cloakbreaker. You can drop your spinners or necropotence or Amber plasma or whatever.
You don't understand what you are talking about.
We don't need hardcounters in this game where the worst player in the game can potentially kill the best players due to using 1 special thing that forces the other players to completely build around countering this one special thing thus making their builds completely uncompetitive.
We need less hardcounters, Xv1 tools and training wheels in this game. You should lose every fight against a better player no matter what you are running if he's running a competitive build.3 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Yeah well if you're running shield breaker you're running a build that only functions against people who use shields sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo don't worry they get their butts handed to them by literally everyone else
because no one situationally changes armor/skills/weapons on the fly in cyrodil, ever, yes?
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Who said anything about a "Cloak Breaker" set? I want "Dodge Breaker" instead, thanks. If you can hard counter a shield stacking Sorcerer who thinks he's safe, I should be able to hard counter the dude that's dodge roll spamming and getting ready to turn around and 3 shot the closest person chasing him.
Or, on a more serious note, we can instead get rid of the sillyness of having gear sets that hard counter anyone's defense.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Here's where it all went wrong:
dwemer_paleologist
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
i used all my stamina and all my magicka did all the damage i could as a nightblade duel wield, im vet 12 and the sorcerer was a vet 12. i was with 6 other people and we all stayed close together. that sorcerer did massive damage to us one at a time and when his health got low he simply cast a spell that made his health full instantly.
i was with a vet 8, a vet 10 and a few others that were about lv 45 to vet1.
complete imbalance in eso for the sorcerers and dragonights. it's rediculas.
that sorcerer killed all of us in under 30 seconds.
Edited by dwemer_paleologist on August 5, 2014 2:01PM
Sadtimes when people are unable to learn anything in three years.
"Guys i´m repeating the same mistakes every time and time again. Why do i not start winning? Must be the other players doing something foul."Who said anything about a "Cloak Breaker" set? I want "Dodge Breaker" instead, thanks. If you can hard counter a shield stacking Sorcerer who thinks he's safe, I should be able to hard counter the dude that's dodge roll spamming and getting ready to turn around and 3 shot the closest person chasing him.
Or, on a more serious note, we can instead get rid of the sillyness of having gear sets that hard counter anyone's defense.
We should just rework shieldbreaker into all 3 armor weights + all jewelry traits and call it defense breaker.
Deals oblivion dmg against a target that blocks, cloaks (and breaks cloak), shields, dodges, has an active hot, active reflect, has healed in the past 2 seconds, has an active shield - or just isn´t dead in the first place.Edited by Derra on March 26, 2018 9:01AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would even go further and not only rework Shieldbreaker but also rework Shattering Blows. ZOS should really stop releasing hardcounters to "balance" stuff. That's the same with Defile builds, you just can't handle them on a healing build.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I would even go further and not only rework Shieldbreaker but also rework Shattering Blows. ZOS should really stop releasing hardcounters to "balance" stuff. That's the same with Defile builds, you just can't handle them on a healing build.
Shattering blows is the counter CP to Bastion.
Just like there’s a befoul cp counter to blessed.
This is fine actually.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I would even go further and not only rework Shieldbreaker but also rework Shattering Blows. ZOS should really stop releasing hardcounters to "balance" stuff. That's the same with Defile builds, you just can't handle them on a healing build.
Shattering blows is the counter CP to Bastion.
Just like there’s a befoul cp counter to blessed.
This is fine actually.
Except that befoul is just kinda overtuned 0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »rimmidimdim wrote: »rimmidimdim wrote: »A shieldbreak build makes his build useless against anything but shield users. Let that sink in.
Shieldbreak is fine as is.
It only takes a NB to run SB on Backbar so its actually not a big loss of anything. If you SB defenders are fine with this set then you should also be fine with a set that deals 2100 obli dmg every 0.6 seconds while you are in cloak or dodge rolling or blocking
Yes, I have to be ok with it, cause it does exist. It's a Templars spamable. It's the perfect counter too both those defences you are referring too. One a night blade skill and other all classes can and do. And this skill I'm referring too does way more damage than shieldbreaker. So yes, again, shieldbreaker is fine. As said before there are counters and skills to help combat certain op things. One, being shieldbreaker.
Also you can dodge light attacks. Unless you are saying SB is broken and you cant dodge it. I have no idea about that.
So, you can roll dodge four times in a row, then run out of stamina, and now we call that a counter. Sorry, that’s a pretty stupid thing to say.
I really hope ZOS adds a cloakbreaker set, or a ‘piercing mark’ skill to the Alliance War tree. Then we’ll see how ‘balanced’ shieldbreaker is for the potatoes using it.
Ya what I said was stupid. There are not near enough counters too cloak. We need more counters or a armor set that counters cloak, fine bring it in. Maybe everytime a NB cast cloak within ten meters you do 2k Oblivion damage? I'd be fine with that cause you sacrifice Soo much for that set. I absolutely agree. We found a good compromise. Keep shieldbreaker as is and bring this cloak Oblivion damge set in. Call it cloak breaker I guess.
Edit, actually I don't think it's a bad idea. I'm intrigued. Serious.
You get a crutch, you get a crutch everybody gets a crutch. Shieldbreaker, Cloakbreaker, Blockbreaker, Rollbreaker, Healbreaker. Get ur set now guys and light attack people to death. Cause thats real skill.0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭you guys are under the belief that a constant
"forum complaint light attack"
and
"daily repeatable comment in a nerf / buff an armor set request thread"
will help in buffing your class damage and / or class nerf, and you are "Completely Right", but my only request is that your comments are based on truth and true to what happens ingame.
here in this thread, and the other ones you spam daily just are not honest in comment content honesty, and what is being presented as fact, nor are your daily comments requesting that your class and armor sets be buffed or other classes and armor sets nerfed.
people who wear shield breaker sets in eso are only wining the battles with sorcerers Half of the Time.
the other Half of the time Sorcerers are winning.
as said earlier, the shield breaker set is only creating fairness in PvP to shield stacking sorcerers.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »you guys are under the belief that a constant
"forum complaint light attack"
and
"daily repeatable comment in a nerf / buff an armor set request thread"
will help in buffing your class damage and / or class nerf, and you are "Completely Right", but my only request is that your comments are based on truth and true to what happens ingame.
here in this thread, and the other ones you spam daily just are not honest in comment content honesty, and what is being presented as fact, nor are your daily comments requesting that your class and armor sets be buffed or other classes and armor sets nerfed.
people who wear shield breaker sets in eso are only wining the battles with sorcerers Half of the Time.
the other Half of the time Sorcerers are winning.
as said earlier, the shield breaker set is only creating fairness in PvP to shield stacking sorcerers.
In other words, "nerf sorcs"1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I would even go further and not only rework Shieldbreaker but also rework Shattering Blows. ZOS should really stop releasing hardcounters to "balance" stuff. That's the same with Defile builds, you just can't handle them on a healing build.
Shattering blows is the counter CP to Bastion.
Just like there’s a befoul cp counter to blessed.
This is fine actually.
I don't think Shattering Blows is needed tho. I play without it and don't struggle much against sorcs. If shieldstacking gets nerfed one day Shattering Blows needs to get nerfed too, otherwise shields will be underpowered for sure.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I would even go further and not only rework Shieldbreaker but also rework Shattering Blows. ZOS should really stop releasing hardcounters to "balance" stuff. That's the same with Defile builds, you just can't handle them on a healing build.
Shattering blows is the counter CP to Bastion.
Just like there’s a befoul cp counter to blessed.
This is fine actually.
I don't think Shattering Blows is needed tho. I play without it and don't struggle much against sorcs. If shieldstacking gets nerfed one day Shattering Blows needs to get nerfed too, otherwise shields will be underpowered for sure.
I think that depends on how shieldstacking gets nerfed.
Because we still have bastion i don't see why shields should get a different treatment than resistances buffs/ penetration or direct damage buffs/ mitigation with cp.
0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »you guys are under the belief that a constant
"forum complaint light attack"
and
"daily repeatable comment in a nerf / buff an armor set request thread"
will help in buffing your class damage and / or class nerf, and you are "Completely Right", but my only request is that your comments are based on truth and true to what happens ingame.
here in this thread, and the other ones you spam daily just are not honest in comment content honesty, and what is being presented as fact, nor are your daily comments requesting that your class and armor sets be buffed or other classes and armor sets nerfed.
people who wear shield breaker sets in eso are only wining the battles with sorcerers Half of the Time.
the other Half of the time Sorcerers are winning.
as said earlier, the shield breaker set is only creating fairness in PvP to shield stacking sorcerers.
I've beaten a shield breaker opponent a total of 1 time, tell me again how its a 50/50 split? Talk about a total fabrication of reality.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »you guys are under the belief that a constant
"forum complaint light attack"
and
"daily repeatable comment in a nerf / buff an armor set request thread"
will help in buffing your class damage and / or class nerf, and you are "Completely Right", but my only request is that your comments are based on truth and true to what happens ingame.
here in this thread, and the other ones you spam daily just are not honest in comment content honesty, and what is being presented as fact, nor are your daily comments requesting that your class and armor sets be buffed or other classes and armor sets nerfed.
people who wear shield breaker sets in eso are only wining the battles with sorcerers Half of the Time.
the other Half of the time Sorcerers are winning.
as said earlier, the shield breaker set is only creating fairness in PvP to shield stacking sorcerers.
It's your truth, and your truth only. In other words, your OPINION, not truth.
You can go around and ask how threatening sorcs are these days. Or just look up the Legends duel tournaments. People sure don't need Shieldbreaker there to have a "fair chance" against sorcs.
Waffennacht pointed it out.
You simply never learned how to deal with shields and still refuse to. You're a bad player unwilling to improve and stomp your feet at the thought of losing your crutch, creating a web of illusions and lies in your head.
I bet you would be the first to complain if Cloak- or Dodgebreaker would ever be introduced...1 -
Azurya✭✭✭✭✭
✭shieldbreaker is awesome!
get so many hatecomments when using it!
only one day a week on my stamsorc, but yeah, shieldstacking is just as annoying as shieldbreaker is!
and as long as there are shields to stack, it is only fair to have shieldbreaker too!
just pouring a bit oil in this rusty thread....2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭shieldbreaker is awesome!
get so many hatecomments when using it!
only one day a week on my stamsorc, but yeah, shieldstacking is just as annoying as shieldbreaker is!
and as long as there are shields to stack, it is only fair to have shieldbreaker too!
just pouring a bit oil in this rusty thread....
If it had stacking Harness/Dampen and Hardened/Empowered as proc condition I’d be totally fine with it. But it works against a single shield as well. It’s the model example of a bandaid solution because Cyrodiil is so full of bad players who can’t kill a mud crab.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭shieldbreaker is awesome!
get so many hatecomments when using it!
only one day a week on my stamsorc, but yeah, shieldstacking is just as annoying as shieldbreaker is!
and as long as there are shields to stack, it is only fair to have shieldbreaker too!
just pouring a bit oil in this rusty thread....
If it had stacking Harness/Dampen and Hardened/Empowered as proc condition I’d be totally fine with it. But it works against a single shield as well. It’s the model example of a bandaid solution because Cyrodiil is so full of bad players who can’t kill a mud crab.
Unless it uses a shield :-pMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.3 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Brainstorm suggestion taken from a friend (the set now only works in imperial city):
While having the x1 tel-var multiplier: Deals 100 oblivion damage
With x2 tel-var multiplier: deals 500 oblivion damage
With x3 tel-var multiplier: deals 750 oblivion damage
With x4 tel-var multiplier: deals 2k oblivion damage (slightly less than the current value)
Edited by Qbiken on March 27, 2018 12:02PM0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »please stop asking for nerfs, people are having Loads of fun right now
Listen, if go to cryodiil right now you will see all classes fighting fairly, no class greater then another, they all dying and killing each other at same pace
if you don't believe me then go to cryodiil main campaign where i am at just watch the fights.
you will see that its just about perfect balance in classes.
come join the fun instead of asking for nerfs.
Please stop spamming this *** everywhere just so your precious NB and cheese doesn't get touched.
You go to cyro, near half the classes are NB. At the least 40%. And unless you are a zerg, no. Not everyone is dying at the same pace. I go after 1/2 players, maybe kill them, but end up with a zerg on me, an NB does that, they can can get away easily.
You want more NB buffs due to your own badness, despite playing the best class by far.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭My Mag Sorc's Hardened Ward is like 7.6k or so in no-CP Battlegrounds, so a single Dizzying Swing + Light Attack "combo" is generally enough to take it down, even against a fresh shield and without an enchant/poison proc. Throw in someone else running Shield Breaker and I might as well just sit back and take my hands off the keyboard.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Summary:
Only bad players want Shiekdbreaker in this game, and they are so bad they die half the time, anyway, and want one of two top tier classes buffed even more. 0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭shieldbreaker is awesome!
get so many hatecomments when using it!
only one day a week on my stamsorc, but yeah, shieldstacking is just as annoying as shieldbreaker is!
and as long as there are shields to stack, it is only fair to have shieldbreaker too!
just pouring a bit oil in this rusty thread....
Well you are also a potato refusing to learn alongside that other scrub. We already knew that as well.Edited by pieratsos on March 27, 2018 4:06PM3