What if Nirn is former realm of Jyggalag/Sheogorath?

yake82 · March 2018

Im sure someone will explain why it isnt so. Im not really lore expert...

Anyway... I recently saw youtube video about most powerful Daedric Princes. The video claimed that Sheogorath is the most powerful.
The logic behind this claim was that he is able to manifest upon Nirn like no other Prince can do.
Also we know from the Oblivion: Shivering Isles that Sheogorath used to be Daedric Prince of Order, Jyggalag. Who grew so powerful that rest of the Deadric Princes banded together against him and cursed him with madness.
Personally i think that the rest of Princes only did it because it was convinient to do so. Although i must say i dont remember the events of Shivering Isles that good anymore.

So, when Jyggie was cursed, he would presumably lose control much of the realm which he controlled with his Order-thingy? Leaving Sheogorath with his Shivering Isles.
This would explain how Sheo is able to manifest more freely upon Nirn compared to other Princes?

Right? Its sound logic i think.

Anyways. About the video of most powerful Daedric Prince. I think its Boethia. Didnt Boethia defeat and eat the elven god Trinimac. Then *** out him as Malacath thus creating whole Orsimer race.
I dont know if any other deity has accomplished victory over other? I doubt they agreed to honourable duel either.

VaranisArano · March 2018

The Shivering Isles is Jyggalag's former realm. He was growing in influence and power, so,the other Daedric Princes grew afraid and cursed him into becoming Sheogorath. At the end of every era (a thousand years or so) Jyggalag briefly reclaims his realm in the Greymarch, forcing Sheogorath to rebuild the Shivering Isles. In Oblivion, the Hero of Kvatch stops the Greymarch.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greymarch#cite_note-SISheogorath-1

I'm curious. Why do you think Sheogorath can manifest on Nirn like no other Daedric Prince? In Morrowind, Azura pops up at the end of the Main Quest and Tribunal to say "Well done" to the Nerevarine.

yake82 · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The Shivering Isles is Jyggalag's former realm. He was growing in influence and power, so,the other Daedric Princes grew afraid and cursed him into becoming Sheogorath. At the end of every era (a thousand years or so) Jyggalag briefly reclaims his realm in the Greymarch, forcing Sheogorath to rebuild the Shivering Isles. In Oblivion, the Hero of Kvatch stops the Greymarch.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greymarch#cite_note-SISheogorath-1

I'm curious. Why do you think Sheogorath can manifest on Nirn like no other Daedric Prince? In Morrowind, Azura pops up at the end of the Main Quest and Tribunal to say "Well done" to the Nerevarine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sotDHYllOww

Sheos powers are gone over in the video.

What if The Shivering Isles are just a small pocket plane? An island like the name suggests?

And Nirn is the rest of Sheogoraths realm, now lack of Order since Jyggalag is gone?

VaranisArano · March 2018

Given that we meet Sheogorath in Skyrim, some 200 years after the events of Shivering Isles, with no indication that Nirn is somehow now his realm, I highly doubt your theory holds any water. Mankor Camoran in Oblivion wants,us to believe that Nirn is a daedric realm too, but he's heavily implied to be lying through his teeth to confuse the hero.

yake82 · March 2018

Mankor Camoran said that Nirn is daedric realm? I dont remember that, huh? If so then probably this theory is on to something.
If someone could provide details?

If Sheo is content with his Shivering Isle-pocket plane, then why not let rest of the Nirn roam free? Nirn is obviously providing ample supply of followers and subjects for Sheo. I wouldnt expect Sheo to rule over his realm like other Princes.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · March 2018

The Shivering Isles are/were Jyggalag's realm; that's why it has all the giant crystals that spew out Knights of Order in it.

yake82 wrote: »

Mankor Camoran said that Nirn is daedric realm? I dont remember that, huh? If so then probably this theory is on to something.
If someone could provide details?

Mankar Camoran is the same one who tries to tell us that Quagmire (Vaermina's realm) belongs to Peryite and Moonshadow (Azura's realm) belongs to Mephala.

How little you understand! You cannot stop Lord Dagon. The Principalities have sparkled as gems in the black reaches of Oblivion since the First Morning. Many are their names and the names of their masters: the Coldharbour of Meridia, Peryite's Quagmire, the ten Moonshadows of Mephala, and... and Dawn's Beauty, the Princedom of Lorkhan... misnamed 'Tamriel' by deluded mortals.
Yes, you understand now. Tamriel is just one more Daedric realm of Oblivion, long since lost to its Prince when he was betrayed by those that served him. Lord Dagon cannot invade Tamriel, his birthright! He comes to liberate the Occupied Lands!

You'll note his logic is also incredibly flawed, as it runs 'Tamriel is a Daedric realm' -> 'Dagon is a Daedric Prince' -> 'Therefore Tamriel belongs to Dagon'. Even IF the first bit were somehow correct, there is nothing marking Dagon - or any other Prince - as Lorkhan's heir in that case. You might as well say 'Tamriel is a mortal realm' -> 'The Kamal are mortals' -> 'Therefore Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal is the rightful Emperor'. It doesn't work that way. At best Mankar's trying to mess with the PC's head; I'm more inclined to think he's delusional.

VaranisArano · March 2018

Thanks for providing the quote there, WhiteCoatSyndrome. For context, this is from the speech Mankar Camoran is giving as the Hero of Kvatch is slaughtering their way through Camoran's Paradise to kick Mankar's butt and regain the Amulet of Kings (*insert Mannimarco yelling "WHERE IS THE AMULET OF KINGS?"* because I can't unhear that

) That Paradise is similarly misnamed as the cultists are being slaughtered by daedra in the midst of beautiful gardens that are in turn hiding torture chambers, so very little is to be taken at face value at that part of the story.

Even if you take it seriously, Camoran attributes Tamriel to Lorkhan, who isn't even a deadric prince.

Ajaxandriel · March 2018

Lorkhan/Lorkhaj could have been a Daedric Prince who was later defeated and disappeared somehow ... His pocket realm (linked to the moons) could be some remnant of this.

Indeed the curse of Jyggalag is quite weird...

But I'd rather see all the different realms of Oblivion as mere pocket realms conquered and extended by powerful ghosts that we happen to call "Daedra Princes", so imo there's a "basis-reality" where the realms magically extracted their "furniture" from in the first place.
So the Shivering Isles may be nothing more that regular islands from Summerset, that were "extracted from reality" (regarding perception and magicks - while physically still laying on Nirn's ground - just like the White Gold Tower dungeon during the Planemeld, or like that khajiit temple room during the MoL raid)

Maybe Tamriel is the result of distant past Planemelds occurred on Nirn... That's what I think of, when I read about the Dawn Era.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2018

There are two 'Daedric' Princes that intrigue me the most: Jyggalag/Sheogorath & Meridia. Jyggalag represents implacable Order. You know what else represents Order? Anu-->Auri-El-->Akatosh. The question then becomes why is Jyggalag considered a Daedra? What separates this Orderly figure other than the fact he was disassociated from himself and turned to Sheogorath. It makes me wonder if Jyggalag was in fact not a Daedra at all but corrupted into Sheogorath, and his 'Jyggalag moments' are moments of clarity and remembrance of his true purpose. I do in fact wonder if Jyggalag was a Magne-Ge at one point or something else altogether.

The other oddity is that Meridia is formed from Anu's Blood as she is considered a former Magna-Ge. If this is the case it is strikingly odd that she is considered a Daedra. Her purpose and realm represents Life force and healing. She is antithetical to daedric concepts, undead, etc. Why then is this figure considered daedra? The strange thing here is that there are a few things 'off' about this figure. Umaril the Unfeathered is one of them. Umaril is in fact a large part of why I personally feel there is something rotten about the past of the Mer folk. There is this sense that it is quite possibly a deeper Daedric connection that is felt with this figure. These are only feelings on the matter though and there is often not enough information in Elder Scrolls to properly KNOW.

The lack of knowledge is part of the fun. The Dwemer mystery for instance leave us wondering and helps give us a sense of wonder about the world of Nirn.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · March 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The other oddity is that Meridia is formed from Anu's Blood as she is considered a former Magna-Ge. If this is the case it is strikingly odd that she is considered a Daedra.

Malacath is in the same boat, except for being an ex-Aedra.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2018

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The other oddity is that Meridia is formed from Anu's Blood as she is considered a former Magna-Ge. If this is the case it is strikingly odd that she is considered a Daedra.

Malacath is in the same boat, except for being an ex-Aedra.

This is a good point and I'm surprised I didn't think of it. There are also examples and suggestions in the series that certain individuals can attain a 'Divine' element or become 'Divine'. There is the Tribunal of course but also figures like Syrabane, Talos, Rajiin, Mannimarco, etc. It makes one wonder if these Aedra/Daedra/Magna'Ge/Whatevers are supposed to be just folks with too much power pooled on themselves.

Ajaxandriel · March 2018

My headcanon on this, is just "The Old Ways" from Celarus, a psijic philosophy, similar to real world euhemerism.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

There is the Tribunal of course but also figures like Syrabane, Talos, Rajiin, Mannimarco, etc. It makes one wonder if these Aedra/Daedra/Magna'Ge/Whatevers are supposed to be just folks with too much power pooled on themselves.

You can add somehow the Bones of the earth and Y'ffre, that look like in a religion of the ancestors. You can remember how a powerful mage such as Shalidor is able to "project" himself through time and death. And so on...

tyjoie · March 2018

It's not that Sheogorath can manifest himself in Nirn more so than other princes, it's that just he does, and he doesn't try to take over the whole damn place when he does. As we see in ESO, any prince can practically do whatever they want. Whenever Nirn is protected, he's kept out just like everyone else.