A Request to ZeniMax: "It's not about the money. It's about transparency.

Arnorien16 · March 2018

I am posting on behalf of /u/ItsTheBeard on Reddit since he in unable to post here himself.

"ZeniMax Team,

I started Elder Scrolls Online a couple of months ago. My wife and I dove in headfirst and were blown away at ESO's ability to derail our plans for the night as we get sidetracked exploring the world. The whole "you can be anything and do anything" quote is seriously true!

I absolutely love this game.

A couple of weeks ago I saw the Scalecaller crate announcement and fell absolutely in love with many of the possible rewards. I've bought cash-shop items in several MMORPGs and thought many of the items on the Crown Store were absolutely incredible.

I'm a bit uncomfortable bringing this up, but I feel it is relevant. To be blunt, I'm an adult, with an MMORPG-playing wife, no kids, few responsibilities outside of work, and thousands in disposable income each month. I am very fortunate to have experience in a very desired technical skill. Because of that, I can afford to be what many people would call a cash-shop whale.

After previewing the crate contents it was a no-brainer for me. I bought some crowns, purchased 15 crates, and then the wife and I excitedly stared at my screen as I began to open crates. I'll spare you the step-by-step. Out of 15 crates, the drops were a non-combat pet and a couple of face tattoos.

"Aww, man! You must have had bad luck! But that's RNG for ya!"

That's what I thought too... I'm happy to try my chances again, but before purchasing another 15 crates I wondered what others' experience was. I came across 'Faunter's Crown Crate Tracker' and found the following information in almost 7,000 crates tracked.

ZERO Shadow-Rider Senche drops
One Dragonfire Wolf drop (0.014% drop rate)
But, hey, they are supposed to be rare. So here is this...

At the time I write this, you are SIX times more likely to receive a Legendary-rank Experience Scroll than any of the other Legendary rewards.
Even if you receive something, the chance of receiving a duplicate means your chances don't even improve.
While Faunter's data is only a very small subset of total crates opened, it is enough to get a good idea of drop rates. The drop rates of ALL items other than potions/poisons are absurdly low.

It's not about the money. It's about transparency. This is about being forthcoming with the extremely low drop rates. Calling something "rare" isn't good enough when the word is used so commonly in this genre. The problem is that almost everything other than potions, poisons, and face tattoos are extremely rare! By not sharing how low the drop rates are, you are misleading the players who love your game and creating the perception that you're following EA's lead on becoming a player-milking machine, rather than a gaming company building revenue in a now f2p-driven market.

I urge you to do at least ONE of the following:

Advertise the drop rates on the Crown Store
Adjust the drop percentages across the item table
Allow players to buy the contents directly with Crowns

I won't be buying anymore crates in their current form and I hope that other players with think twice before purchasing them as well. I know I'm not the first to notice, and I won't be the last to learn the hard way.

Respectfully,

A fan who wants to support a great game"

Arnorien16 · March 2018

That being said I disagree Zeni is anything like the EA since they never put pay to win elements in ESO and is generally fair in the monetization routes they take.

Knowledge · March 2018

Why can't he post here him self?

Waffennacht · March 2018

I feel I stepped back in time a year or so

VaranisArano · March 2018

At least with the lottery, you can figure out how much money you are likely to lose. The lack of transparency around crown crates compared to other forms of gambling is striking.

Knowledge · March 2018

Can someone tell me why he can't post here?

VaranisArano · March 2018

The simplest answer is that he doesn't have a Forum account...

xbobx · March 2018

from what i have seen, they will never respond to anything of importance like this. They only respond to fluff.

its sad. this is a great game and they are killing it with greed.

all these sales and now giving the game away basically with summerset tells me this game has taken a bit hit and they cant seem to get it through their heads that they are the problem and if they would let go of their ego and listen than this can be fixed.
Unfortunately this game is going to suffer and those programmers at zenimax will find themselves on the unemployment line soon because of upper managements inability to properly make wise decisions.

Skwor · March 2018

I have never met a gambler yet who did not complain about thier odds.

Vapirko · March 2018

Dude there are a million posts just like this one on this forum. If you wanted to know your chances you coulda done a quick search. As I’ve said before idk why people buy these things expecting to get anything. The drop rates are horrendous, always have been, and that is a well documented fact. But despite all that, people keep buying them and keep coming to the forums to complain when they get useless junk. And ZOS keep raking in the cash and bringing out more crown crate items and cosmetics than focusing on fixing base game issues because that’s not where the money is.

VaranisArano · March 2018

Skwor wrote: »

I have never met a gambler yet who did not complain about thier odds.

To be entirely clear, I'm not complaining about the odds. The house always wins, you know.

What I do object to is the house hiding the odds. If I'm going to gamble, I'd like to know what the odds are from an official source, not an add-on.

Arnorien16 · March 2018

xbobx wrote: »

from what i have seen, they will never respond to anything of importance like this. They only respond to fluff.

its sad. this is a great game and they are killing it with greed.

all these sales and now giving the game away basically with summerset tells me this game has taken a bit hit and they cant seem to get it through their heads that they are the problem and if they would let go of their ego and listen than this can be fixed.
Unfortunately this game is going to suffer and those programmers at zenimax will find themselves on the unemployment line soon because of upper managements inability to properly make wise decisions.

I utterly disagree with this. I would rather say that they listened to Price Complaints when they launched their first Expansions and adapted accordingly on the second. Not to mention no data show that ESO worse off and its standard practice for MMOs like WoW to bundle older Expansions with newer. Please give credit where credit is due.

Vapirko wrote: »

And ZOS keep raking in the cash and bringing out more crown crate items and cosmetics than focusing on fixing base game issues because that’s not where the money is.

Just the point out the Art team who makes new costumes and mounts for Crown Store are not taking resources away from those who code and script. Its totally different disciplines. Rather the art team's work is funding the work of the coders.

Knowledge · March 2018

It could be worse. They could remove the gems we get from opening crates that allow you get whatever you want after a bit of bad luck. AFAIK that doesn't really exist in other games.

Waffennacht · March 2018

I thought the odds were clear: 0% lmao

xbobx · March 2018

Arnorien16 wrote: »

xbobx wrote: »

from what i have seen, they will never respond to anything of importance like this. They only respond to fluff.

its sad. this is a great game and they are killing it with greed.

all these sales and now giving the game away basically with summerset tells me this game has taken a bit hit and they cant seem to get it through their heads that they are the problem and if they would let go of their ego and listen than this can be fixed.
Unfortunately this game is going to suffer and those programmers at zenimax will find themselves on the unemployment line soon because of upper managements inability to properly make wise decisions.

I utterly disagree with this. I would rather say that they listened to Price Complaints when they launched their first Expansions and adapted accordingly on the second. Not to mention no data show that ESO worse off and its standard practice for MMOs like WoW to bundle older Expansions with newer. Please give credit where credit is due.

Vapirko wrote: »

And ZOS keep raking in the cash and bringing out more crown crate items and cosmetics than focusing on fixing base game issues because that’s not where the money is.

Just the point out the Art team who makes new costumes and mounts for Crown Store are not taking resources away from those who code and script. Its totally different disciplines. Rather the art team's work is funding the work of the coders.

the second expansion doesn't have as much content. The new job is what made morrowind more money. They never listened to squat. and its only 10 dollars cheaper, cdn, its still overpriced.

content like that should be 20 to 25 at most.

Stewart1874 · March 2018

I agree. I'm exhausted about moaning about the game but will wholeheartedly agree.

I strongly suspect they are making a tidy profit just from subscribers so crown crates are nothing more than a cash grab. What annoys me is how blatantly items are being held back to be rammed into them. I don't want dice rolls when I want cosmetics. They've turned wanting to support the game into a much more insidious, seedy thing. I don't want to gamble to try and get a mount I want, I just want to buy the *** thing.

I think despite a large portion of the community responding negatively to crown crates and the sleekit* way in which they operate - unclear drop rates, yet Zenimax have remained silent on the issue suggests they damn well know A.) what they are doing is wrong, and B.) how they are going about it isn't transparent.

Its frustrating because if you want any of the new content you need to buy crown crates. Despite being quite happy to buy crowns for outfits I'm now unwilling to purchase any as my 1500 invariably go towards the bloody crates in the hope I get something decent. So my weak protest is not to buy any crowns period. I figure as the 1500 crowns are part of the subscription I'm not dipping my pocket to effectively gamble.

Its such a good game as well. This immoral method of extracting money from the consumer is such a kick in the balls. Every time I think too much on it, it makes me want to unsubscribe.

*

(ˈslikɪt ; slēkˈit) adjective. sly, crafty, or sneaky. Word origin of 'sleekit'

Priyasekarssk · March 2018

Zeni & bethesda are not like EA or ubisoft. Rockstar is already in verge of written off by players. But, they should seriously think not become one before player community write them off and treat them like laughing stock.

NyassaV · March 2018

The first and second season of Crown Crates had some very fair drop rates. They've only gotten worse which is why I buy little or none

Rohamad_Ali · March 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

The first and second season of Crown Crates had some very fair drop rates. They've only gotten worse which is why I buy little or none

I wrote a thread the day they introduced warning of the trend to lower drop rates over time while adding more desirable loot box exclusive items . The very same Marketer from SWOTOR was hired here to manage them . Do not be lax with real money be frugal if possible avoid them . It's a trend that's lead to much controversy but could be solved by consumers if they wished in mass . Whales make this even more difficult as they purchase lots and the data shows this is most profitable . Created our own problem here . Can't change the world but you can change yourself and never be let down .

Ratzkifal · March 2018

ZOS wouldn't make content for us if they didn't want us to receive said content, right? Then why are these mounts borderline impossible to get? I can honestly make no sense out of this apart from it being a scam.
"But Ratz, what if people stop buying the crowncrates if they get the mount so early? That would be terrible for ZOS financially!" you might ask.
Well, fill the crates with things that aren't garbage and people will buy them even after they got their mount. And yes, consumables are garbage with exp scrolls being the only thing you could argue for not being garbage sometimes.

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2018

Crown crates are NOT there for your benefit, they are there to make ZOS money. Remember the House ALWAYS WINS...no exceptions.

The only winning move is not to play. For every one person at the casino that walks out winning more money then he spent a thousand others lost money.

Crown crates like casinos are mathematically designed to make sure you are a loser 9 out of 10 times. They dangle a carrot just enough...give you something decent every once in awhile to keep you buying.

Thankfully I have zero interest in any of that trash they put in those crates. I consider myself fortunate in that regard I know others are not so lucky.

xbobx · March 2018

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Zeni & bethesda are not like EA or ubisoft. Rockstar is already in verge of written off by players. But, they should seriously think not become one before player community write them off and treat them like laughing stock.

they are worse. EA and Ubisoft at least listens to complaints and changes them. Sure they see what they can get away with, the complaints come and they make adjustments.

Zenimax ignores the complaints, and buries their head in the sands.

and because of that, they are worse

i hope laws force them to show the odds, because having it out there, in the public by a report from them will make them change the rates because it will show what they have become and people will not even bother.

i just wish they had the guts to respond, but you know they wont

xbobx · March 2018

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ZOS wouldn't make content for us if they didn't want us to receive said content, right? Then why are these mounts borderline impossible to get? I can honestly make no sense out of this apart from it being a scam.
"But Ratz, what if people stop buying the crowncrates if they get the mount so early? That would be terrible for ZOS financially!" you might ask.
Well, fill the crates with things that aren't garbage and people will buy them even after they got their mount. And yes, consumables are garbage with exp scrolls being the only thing you could argue for not being garbage sometimes.

they just make really dumb decisions.

just think of how much money they lose by having limited crown items. If mounts, houses , etc would just stay up in the store they would make millions more.

they really have no clue what they are doing from a business perspective, hence why the game failed on a sub model.

and again, they will ignore this and yet, they are losing so much money.

there are a few mounts i want but will never get because they are not on the store, but if they were, i would be spending money. i bet there are 1000s of people like me with other items

Shadowasrial · March 2018

http://a67.tinypic.com/3025gd4.jpg
http://a65.tinypic.com/671c8o.jpg
http://a63.tinypic.com/t7y1k7.jpg

Arnorien16 · March 2018

xbobx wrote: »

the second expansion doesn't have as much content. The new job is what made morrowind more money. They never listened to squat. and its only 10 dollars cheaper, cdn, its still overpriced.

content like that should be 20 to 25 at most.

they just make really dumb decisions.

just think of how much money they lose by having limited crown items. If mounts, houses , etc would just stay up in the store they would make millions more.

they really have no clue what they are doing from a business perspective, hence why the game failed on a sub model.

and again, they will ignore this and yet, they are losing so much money.

there are a few mounts i want but will never get because they are not on the store, but if they were, i would be spending money. i bet there are 1000s of people like me with other items

Wonderful to know that you are already aware how much content is in a zone that is double the size of Morrowind, has a new Guild and Skill line even before the PTR (Just like how you know they are loosing so much money). Not to mention offering both Morrowind with Summerset for 10$ cheaper compared to the a single expansion last time clearly shows they are being greedy.

And unlike your foolish assumptions releasing the rates wont change anything for the most cases. Anyone who cares about rates can find the rates thanks to data gathered by addons. It is a principle issue and meant for newer players. We vets already know the rough rates, and there is literally no reason not to state it officially.

Also you are a fool if you think exclusivity doesnt promote impulse purchases. As much as some may dislike it it, limited offers are attractive because they are limited and sets them apart from others ... which is the entire point of cosmetics.

Acrolas · March 2018

"I'll spare you the step-by-step. Out of 15 crates, the drops were a non-combat pet and a couple of face tattoos."

No, by all means give us the step-by-step. Because then I reveal a little truth. That crate-bashing threads are just people too proud to accept that they're getting the advertised output of 400 crowns worth of rewards from a 400 crown crate, and are willing to suppress evidence to fortify their victim angle.

Now, if you unarguably received a crate with less than 400 crowns worth of rewards in it, by all means, screenshot it and send in a ticket. Because it could happen. Maybe one in ten thousand. Not 12 out of 15.

But odds would just incorrectly lure people into assuming that purchasing X crates would generate favorable outcome Y.
Random occurrences do not affect each other.
Regardless of crate quantity purchased, for each crate the vast majority of people are going to get one superior reward and a combination of fine and common rewards from the other three cards.

So if you're not absolutely in love with the superior tier of rewards then don't even bother looking up because you'll be staring at disappointment. But accept the normal outcome every time and the few times you manage to exceed it will be a victory.

Put 400 in, get 400 out.
Is that transparent enough? I know I'm not a mouthpiece for ZOS but come on, enough is enough.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · March 2018

I AM/WAS/ALWAYS be agains Crown Crates but seriously...it feels that ZO$ doesn't properly monetize this game from my perspective...

SirAndy · March 2018

Arnorien16 wrote: »

An Open Letter to ZeniMax"

"Open letters" are against the TOS ...

Shawn_PT · March 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

The first and second season of Crown Crates had some very fair drop rates. They've only gotten worse which is why I buy little or none

This. When an extra golden card popped up you could get your hopes up of getting some amazing reward. Now chances are you'll get another (trash) consumable in the form of an exp scroll. Or a Homestead statue/banner. How many of us buy the boxes because they want a red drape no one looks at on their walls?

Extra experience is only good for a tiny bit of time and only helpful to anyone leveling a character. Besides there are already other sources of extra exp in the game, acquired with good old regular gold. For people like me who don't much care to level more characters, a crown scroll IS trash.

Since the crates came out I only got a single unique mount and that was the storm atronach guar. Since then I have received maybe two or three extra golden cards and guess what, they were all scrolls. I know we can trade them for a meagre amount of gems but it still feels like a kick in the (Crown) jewels. It's very discouraging.

DieAlteHexe · March 2018

Shawn_PT wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

The first and second season of Crown Crates had some very fair drop rates. They've only gotten worse which is why I buy little or none

This. When an extra golden card popped up you could get your hopes up of getting some amazing reward. Now chances are you'll get another (trash) consumable in the form of an exp scroll. Or a Homestead statue/banner. How many of us buy the boxes because they want a red drape no one looks at on their walls?

Extra experience is only good for a tiny bit of time and only helpful to anyone leveling a character. Besides there are already other sources of extra exp in the game, acquired with good old regular gold. For people like me who don't much care to level more characters, a crown scroll IS trash.

Since the crates came out I only got a single unique mount and that was the storm atronach guar. Since then I have received maybe two or three extra golden cards and guess what, they were all scrolls. I know we can trade them for a meagre amount of gems but it still feels like a kick in the (Crown) jewels. It's very discouraging.

There are many people who play ESO who take decorating seriously, just have a look at a trader some time and see the prices for furnishings (and some recipes/diagrams etc.).

As for me, I have utterly no interest in the Apex mounts. I find them way OTT usually. The other stuff (scrolls, potions etc.) are useful but a bit mundane plus (as you noted) they can be "sold back" for gems which you can then use to buy what you prefer.

I don't buy that many crates but I do have a go at the beginning of each new season.

Sovjet · March 2018

Aah i see a friend of a friend excuse