ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

BohnT wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

Ehn?

Do you mean to say Cloak is not used in end-game Trials and DPS parses?
Cloak is a great PvE tool for just adventuring around
and for all Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

Incorrect, the sneaky thief and murderer type use it a lot.

This is not pve and it's not even needed

Samadhi wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

Ehn?

Do you mean to say Cloak is not used in end-game Trials and DPS parses?
Cloak is a great PvE tool for just adventuring around
and for all Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content

True. The proposed changes don’t affect the adventuring aspect though.

TequilaFire wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

Ehn?

Do you mean to say Cloak is not used in end-game Trials and DPS parses?
Cloak is a great PvE tool for just adventuring around
and for all Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content

Don't confuse "The Brotherhood of the Nerf" with facts. lol

Man i knew people need their training wheels but if stacking cost on cloak makes it impossible or hard to do quests then i advise you shouldn't discuss about changes

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

Ehn?

Do you mean to say Cloak is not used in end-game Trials and DPS parses?
Cloak is a great PvE tool for just adventuring around
and for all Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content

Don't confuse "The Brotherhood of the Nerf" with facts. lol

Man i knew people need their training wheels but if stacking cost on cloak makes it impossible or hard to do quests then i advise you shouldn't discuss about changes

Now you resort to putting words in my mouth please show me where I said that.

You say it nerfs adventuring or questing - - - - > the change makes it harder.
That's the point where you said that

TequilaFire wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Yea I am not reading this but as a pve only nightblade who is not interested in pvp at all can we please stop ruining pve balance for *** pvp...

None of the changes in this post would kill nightblades in pve

Cloak cannot recast
Ultimate cost increase

Cloak is not used in pve

Ehn?

Do you mean to say Cloak is not used in end-game Trials and DPS parses?
Cloak is a great PvE tool for just adventuring around
and for all Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content

Don't confuse "The Brotherhood of the Nerf" with facts. lol

Man i knew people need their training wheels but if stacking cost on cloak makes it impossible or hard to do quests then i advise you shouldn't discuss about changes

Now you resort to putting words in my mouth please show me where I said that.

The argument was cloak cannot be changed because it’s then ruined for PvE. Which is an inaccurate statement that doesn’t get better by twisting words around.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

What’s the deal with the recent spike in NB hate/salt?

Sorcs have been nerfed so much, that they have been collectively tossed in the garbage bin.

NBs became the new "nerf kid on the block".

Seraphayel wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nightblades were very, very unpopular (or better: underperforming) in during ESOs first years. I am glad that they are a great class now but - as you said - they are a bit overperforming. Too many great skills (Grim Focus, Cloak, Fear) for PvP.

Instead of nerfing NB I would prefer buffing the other classes.

You'd have to buff 7 specs in pvp. The number of changes required to fulfil this is way too high and in the end we'll just have other things which are overperfoming.
In pve we already need to buff certain specs like magdk, Magplar or magwarden as they are underperforming and this will result in New Balance issues.
It's like reworking Code or trying to find an error with an experiment. You want to change as few things as possible and once it's working again you improve it further

I think nerfs are not necessarily solving problems. Nerfing p* off the players that get nerfed. Buffs make the players happy that get buffed. That's a difference. ZOS should do something about balance but not by ruining class defining skills like they did with DK for example.

You know that ZOS are totally unable to do anything but to destroy, devastate, eradicate a class in the most hideous ways, for a year+.

That, imo, is also why "nerf candidate class" players fight so hard to avoid the nerf. Because ZOS does not "rebalance". Does not "tweak". They go with the sledgehammer and render the class powerless, useless, pathetic, bland for years.

Look at what they have done to sorcs. Nowadays I am surprised a sentient being would want to play a 4 button pathetic excuse for a down-streamlined class. I am actually surprised sorcs don't have to triple bar Crushing Shock.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Maryal

... So you want a 4K ability that suppresses all applied DoTs, breaks LoS, Causes all incoming attacks to miss, grants Major Ward and Resolve and Ward for 6s+, and purges you of one negative effect. Because you want a defensive option to the guaranteed Crit. (Because I know that the Minor Protection is absolute shite, I don't use it, 8% DM only useful when cloak is broken sucks).

That seems like way too weighted of an ability. Able to engage/disengage and provide solid defense all in one skill...

But this is good discussion, getting ideas and opinions out in the open.

Of those in favor of nerfing the NB's cloak, most either want to reduce the duration, put in a cool down between uses, or escalate the cost if used in succession.

You know, it was bad enough back when ZOS removed purge from cloak and required NBs to spam the friggen skill just to get a purge-like-effect. Geeze! All that so people would stop complaining how unfair it was that they had to spend a lot of resources to use the alliance purge while NBs didn't. When ZOS made that change was I glad? Heck NO! I hated that change. The last thing I wanted was to 'have to' spam cloak while engaged in battle. It took ME out of combat ... I wasn't trying to do that! It gave the enemy a chance to heal and regen resources ... do you really think I wanted that? NO!

Do I use cloak to be unseen? Yes, when my keep is UA cloak lets me sneak past the enemy so I can get into the side door while they are sieging the front door. Cloak helps me to get from my keep to my keep's resource without getting ganked. And, when I am traveling from one keep to another because a.) it's UA by the enemy, or b.) we are sieging it, cloak helps me get to my destination without being ganked. So yes, I do use cloak for a cloaking purpose in Cyrodiil ... I admit to spaming it to hide ... but I'm not engaged in battle and I'm not ganking anyone.

Do I use cloak now for it's purge-like-effect? Yes. Do I use cloak to 'reset a fight'? No. Do I use cloak to break los? No. And, before you ask, I generally don't have room on my bar to slot purge, and even if I did, the resource cost has risen to the point of absurdity. A few years ago efficient purge cost 3591 magica elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Purge... now it's more like 5400 magica.

I suspect the majority of the 'nerf the NB' crowd' are pvp'ers. The pvp population is small compaired to the number of all active players ... probably less than 10%. This means the vast majority of NBs are pve'ers. No one is even thinking about how these 'proposed changes' will wrek their game play. And, regarding NB pvp'ers .... please keep in mind that not all of them are gankers. There are plenty of us that 'spam' cloak to protect ourselves from getting ganked while going from point A to point B.

And yes, many NBs are squishy (don't get me started on the squish factor). I confess, whether it be a 1v10, 1v15, or 1v20+ ... I'm gonna die. I'll get whomped upside the head from at least 2 different directions, get poked by several stabby stabby stabbys, get hit by a few poisonous arrows while someone else is summoning fire and brimstone under my arse. So, yea, I try to avoid these situations when I can!

Perhaps, instead of focusing on wreking an entire class, figure out what buffs the other classes need and focus on that.

@Samadhi

It’s really simple. In PvE cloak gives you an invincibility that is only limited by your magical pool and your Regeneration. NPCs stop attacking when you cloak. They aren’t able to detect you if you don’t want to. Take the DB and TG quests. On a NB you can simply permacloak, do the quest objective, and permacloak again without ever facing any NPC.

I don’t care for cloak in PvE actually. I wouldn’t advocate changes for PvE reasons. But the idea that a class can avoid everything by a simple button press at will is a bit absurd even against NPCs.

@BohnT

NB is underperforming right now.

I would consider them definately competitive in DPS roles and they may or may not be overperforming there, but they also require a significantly higher skill level to play. If you put a stamblade and a magsorc in the hands of a newbie, the NB is going to be doing way less DPS. Stamblade has probably the most demanding rotation which in turn has good rewards for a very small % of NB for managing it. Not everyone can do that, in fact most can't or won't. You cannot compare what maybe 1% of NB can extract from their toon and use that for 'balance'.

So why are nightblade underforming? Because NB tank & heal roles are serverly underperforming. You have to look at the class as a whole. Even if they are overperforming a bit in one role does not make up for severely underforming in two roles.

You need to examine NB as tanks & healers too. Please also address these areas in your thread. Until you look at a class as a whole, you cannot ask for a class to be balanced with any fairness. You mention 35% of cyrodiil being NB? What about 99% of vet trial tanks being DK or warden?

Oh and DK healer - why did you not request balancing for them? They are probably in the worst place in the game right now yet your concerns are about a single role of a single class for a very small % of players that is currently in 'competitive' boundaries.

There are area's that are way worse and deserve dev attention way more than this.

Feanor wrote: »

@Samadhi

It’s really simple. In PvE cloak gives you an invincibility that is only limited by your magical pool and your Regeneration. NPCs stop attacking when you cloak. They aren’t able to detect you if you don’t want to. Take the DB and TG quests. On a NB you can simply permacloak, do the quest objective, and permacloak again without ever facing any NPC.

I don’t care for cloak in PvE actually. I wouldn’t advocate changes for PvE reasons. But the idea that a class can avoid everything by a simple button press at will is a bit absurd even against NPCs.

So the objection is that in PvE Cloak acts similar to a damage shield for a Class with no damage shields?
mitigating damage to health based on capabilities of Magicka pool to continually cast
Do you feel a stacking recast cost for damage shields is mechanically necessary as well
or is your not caring for Cloak in PvE just a Class-oriented thing?

Cloak has its own PvE limitations
it does not work on Boss or elite mobs at all
there are also special NPC guards implemented to directly interact with the mechanics of Cloak requiring the player to still play intelligently while Cloak spamming
suggesting that PvE mechanics have been designed and implemented with Cloak spam in mind

Of course, if you use Cloak in PvE you are likely to be familiar with these balances and limitations already

TequilaFire wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

And of course a sorc can't just streak away form NPC's with a single button press as well.

NPCs don’t stop attacking in that case.

They don't stop attacking after 2.7 seconds of cloak either, in the case of streak you avoided their attacks - same result.
Point is every class has one button avoidance, shield, healing or escape skills just as effective as cloak or more so.

That's simply wrong.
Cloak gives you as long as you keep it up: Full damage protection and 50% more healing than any non crit heal