Its an NB thread, but not a nerf them to death one.

ak_pvp · March 2018

I like the concept of NB, but am no master, however I have done some tests and played the game enough to know what is/isn't strong. The meta is mitigate and mobility>Stand and tank, which NB does the former greatly. They are probably the best "balanced" class in the game, with a unique, well scaling (to skills and against numbers) defense, and a solid offense. But as we know, its a little overloaded. Specifically stam which has the benefit of better out of class mechanics. I personally think incap is fine, it is an ult, and single target, it has solid counters, but is strong.

What IMO is overperforming is cloak. Before you jump me, don't get me wrong. Cloak in principle is great for the reasons I mentioned above, and the base invisibility is fine, even if it was just the invisibility it'd probably be the best defense in game, but the other mechanics are poorly written.

The crit:

The crit on cloak is buggy: It is meant to buff (I say buff, but guarantee crit) the next attack, which you would assume to be a direct one that breaks the cloak, so only counts once however It bugs out with dots and healing, possibly buffing all ticks of vigor, but if there is a dot on, it doesn't buff the next attack. Source: @DDuke (If I got anything wrong there correct me)
I feel like they should run with this theme, and make dc a period of hyperfocus, where all your attacks crit, heals, dots, and the first direct attack. IIRC it was kind of like that before.
Wait, that is a buff? Yeah but its a fair one that fits with the theme, and will be made up for in the next possible change.

The DoT suppression:

Again, in theory it is good, it helps NBs be less squishy as they are generally built for higher damage. However in principle it has issues. Being able to completely stop dots is a little too strong, as direct attacks cannot hit, it allows an NB safety to heal whilst taking no damage from something that would and should hit them, it is invisibility, not invincibility. This band aid fix was not good. It also brings problems for the NB, when they cloak/recloak, the "miss" marker appears where they were, which sets a path out.

The dot supression should be reduced to 50% and placed on the protection morph. That way it has a definite defensive morph. But not one what completely shuts down dot builds. These two changes would establish a more offensive and defensive morph, with a risk/reward factor. Also fix the miss trail, only show it when cloak is broken and reentered instead of refreshed.

The counters:

As said, AoEs are a good start counter, easily accessible, but less effective, though a little too costly imo. Detect pots/mark aren't. They are 0-100, and make cloak too weak when active.

Cloak should now only be properly broken by AoEs, and you shouldn't be able to reenter cloak if currently on an AoE like caltrops, atm you can tap it to force miss still. Detect pots should be longer, but only work for the user, and allow you to see and hit them without revealing them from cloak to others, same with mark, and in addition, so should soul trap, as a weaker version of mark. This stops cloak from becoming useless, but maintains a solid counter for the user. You could use coordination to hunt them down, but your team wouldn't be able to hit them if they don't slot a method themselves.

ccfeeling · March 2018

NB , the perfect .

Fulfilled all roles in the game . Especially tank and healer

VaranisArano · March 2018

Why couldn't you have put this on one of the already ongoing threads? This one seems like a good match:https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/401555/the-nightblade-nerfs-are-coming-better-let-the-good-ones-negotiate-the-changes/p1

ak_pvp · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why couldn't you have put this on one of the already ongoing threads? This one seems like a good match:https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/401555/the-nightblade-nerfs-are-coming-better-let-the-good-ones-negotiate-the-changes/p1

They are all full of NBs who see nerf and jump. This thread is less about nerfing things and more for rebalances.

And no offense but many of them are clueless, comparing a DK tank which has been demolished to NB as some excuses. I think OPs solution won't change anything either. Nothing ever plays out that way, with absolute perfect gcds and hits.

VaranisArano · March 2018

No offense, but we have like 6 nightblades threads active right now. Yours might be a cool perspective, but we really didn't need another thread.

NyassaV · March 2018

The crit healing in cloak isn't exactly a bug. The rest is pretty fair but the DoT suppression I am a bit hesitant on due to DoT builds just mowing down everything in their path. As long a single target DoT doesn't bring you out of cloak I suppose I can get behind it.

Honestly all the Nightblade hate is kinda get annoying especially because I know someone started it and had the intentions of making a scene rather than letting it develop more naturally

ak_pvp · March 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

The crit healing in cloak isn't exactly a bug. The rest is pretty fair but the DoT suppression I am a bit hesitant on due to DoT builds just mowing down everything in their path. As long a single target DoT doesn't bring you out of cloak I suppose I can get behind it.

Honestly all the Nightblade hate is kinda get annoying especially because I know someone started it and had the intentions of making a scene rather than letting it develop more naturally

It's in that weird bug purgatory where it works inconsistently and not akin to the tool tip. And zeni hasn't commented on it. Sort of like elfbane and zaan, but nothing else. It'd be nice to make it into a riskier but potentially strong feature.

I personally don't hate NB, but I can see why people do. The amount of them, the safety of the class, and that everyone else has been nerf bombed. I just tapered my build around the meta and it works decently.

Solariken · March 2018

So much Nightblade hate on the forums lately, it's delicious.

I would like to see some changes too, but here's the thing: I like where Nightblade is offensively. I know that's odd to say because the offense is the source of the salt, lol. But a few defensive adjustments are needed.

I would like to see three things:

1. Fix Shadowy Disguise to not affect heals at all.
2. Remove the free Major Ward/Resolve on Shadow skills. Replace with a snare purge with 8 sec cooldown.
3. Nerf Cloak DOT suppression to 50%. Cloak should be about evasiveness and repositioning, not a get-out-of-jail-free immunity button.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · March 2018

if there is something that needs fixing..thats MagDK in PvE...and this comes from someone who only plays stamblade since launch...seriously people...I cant take this anymore!!!do something about garbage MagDK already...or double my ignore list since its already full and 80% of it are magdk...

brandonv516 · March 2018

Can't enter cloak again while in an AoE.

Yeah okay. So that's like everywhere then.

Not much thought was put into that idea.

AoE, snare, hard CC, no cloak escape = so much fun!

Maybe if they bring back the ability to purge on cloak first with a 5s immunity would NBs even have a chance with your idea.

Also AoEs are not that expensive to conservatively cast on NBs.

ak_pvp · March 2018

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

if there is something that needs fixing..thats MagDK in PvE...and this comes from someone who only plays stamblade since launch...seriously people...I cant take this anymore!!!do something about garbage MagDK already...or double my ignore list since its already full and 80% of it are magdk...

Do you ignore people for low DPS? Because if so that's pretty sad. They are pretty weak but I can easily do 30k self buffed with an awful set up, which is enough to get me though most content. (2 purple, 3 infal+nonset with bad glyph, PvP CP)

ak_pvp · March 2018

brandonv516 wrote: »

Can't enter cloak again while in an AoE.
Yeah okay. So that's like everywhere then.

Not much thought was put into that idea.

AoE, snare, hard CC, no cloak escape = so much fun!

Maybe if they bring back the ability to purge on cloak first with a 5s immunity would NBs even have a chance with your idea.

Also AoEs are not that expensive to conservatively cast on NBs.

"I want to be able to ignore counters." You know, the thing that is meant to reveal you but for some reason you can pop back in. You also get better anti zerg against detect pots/mark.

Remove snare, move from aoe (they aren't big, and don't stand in the mess of siege/caltrops in a keep, you will be instantly revealed as it ticks either way) then cast cloak. Solarikens idea of a purge with a CD helps.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · March 2018

@ak_pvp no I ignore them when they say they go motif farming and instead of fast runs as it should be we end up in a struggle cuz bad class especially since they knew that magdk in pve its dead...cuz 2 of them with bis gear barely pulling 37k dps its ok? are you serious?...I need to remind you that you need hardmode for motifs and with that dps you don't get anywhere let aside places like BF or FH where dps is actually a must? same goes for mazzatun on last phase and cradle its just boring and painful to spend 2 much time following mechanics...so yes I ignore people who cant perform their role properly when we all agreed to do a specific task so we need whats best for it...how would you feel to do vmol with a tank that never even finished normal? stuff like that? and I doubt you get through BF/FH hm with that setup...or you might...but the struggle doesn't worth.

DDuke · March 2018

Well, I don't hate these ideas - but if cloak wasn't negating DoT ticks a NB who isn't using 2H & Rally (yes, there are a few of us left still) would be free AP to anyone who hits you with a DBOS or ganks you with Poison Injection since there's no way to recover, not with the 1k/second Vigor ticks (even if they all critted for 1,7-1,8k/second healing...).

What could be interesting is if cloak didn't negate DoTs at all, but instead granted you a heal over time bit stronger than Vigor while cloaked. This would help the NB builds that don't run Rally & have to currently rely only on Vigor for self heals.

ak_pvp · March 2018

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

@ak_pvp no I ignore them when they say they go motif farming and instead of fast runs as it should be we end up in a struggle cuz bad class especially since they knew that magdk in pve its dead...cuz 2 of them with bis gear barely pulling 37k dps its ok? are you serious?...I need to remind you that you need hardmode for motifs and with that dps you don't get anywhere let aside places like BF or FH where dps is actually a must? same goes for mazzatun on last phase and cradle its just boring and painful to spend 2 much time following mechanics...so yes I ignore people who cant perform their role properly when we all agreed to do a specific task so we need whats best for it...how would you feel to do vmol with a tank that never even finished normal? stuff like that? and I doubt you get through BF/FH hm with that setup...or you might...but the struggle doesn't worth.

37k combined or each? Because each in a 4 man is more than fine for fh hm or bf hm. 4man buffed I get around that (ofc not in a ranged biased fight, drops way too low) but I generally don't bother with the ranged biased ones.

Getern · March 2018

Since every enemy NB I met, especially zerglings use mark. There is no way anyone can actually agree that cloak is overperforming, in fact is even underperforming

Datthaw · March 2018

Yeah mag sorcs really need a nerf

Feanor · March 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Well, I don't hate these ideas - but if cloak wasn't negating DoT ticks a NB who isn't using 2H & Rally (yes, there are a few of us left still) would be free AP to anyone who hits you with a DBOS or ganks you with Poison Injection since there's no way to recover, not with the 1k/second Vigor ticks (even if they all critted for 1,7-1,8k/second healing...).

What could be interesting is if cloak didn't negate DoTs at all, but instead granted you a heal over time bit stronger than Vigor while cloaked. This would help the NB builds that don't run Rally & have to currently rely only on Vigor for self heals.

I still don’t understand why you want to make the choice between FM and Rally so much easier. Better healing options outside Rally just means FM is the default.

Jameliel · March 2018

As a noob pvper, I don't understand what's wrong with NBs. I'm a squishy magsorc, but there are only a few scenarios where I die to NBs.
1. I get lazy, leave my shield down, and either get stealth bombed, or they stun me and pull off a perfect combo before I can react in time.

2. I'm battling with a small group against another group, my health or resources are low, and a NB gets off a nice combo.

Other than that, I find them the easiest class to kill if they choose to stand and battle one on one instead of running away.

KeiruNicrom · March 2018

Solariken wrote: »

So much Nightblade hate on the forums lately, it's delicious.

I would like to see some changes too, but here's the thing: I like where Nightblade is offensively. I know that's odd to say because the offense is the source of the salt, lol. But a few defensive adjustments are needed.

I would like to see three things:

1. Fix Shadowy Disguise to not affect heals at all.
2. Remove the free Major Ward/Resolve on Shadow skills. Replace with a snare purge with 8 sec cooldown.
3. Nerf Cloak DOT suppression to 50%. Cloak should be about evasiveness and repositioning, not a get-out-of-jail-free immunity button.

Snare purge would be nice replacement. Or even an immunity while affect by/on path, veil, or cloak

And while i agree DOTs should damage you still, whether full damage or 50% reduction, they really shouldnt pull you out of stealth while damaging. Pretty sure that was the whole reason for the dot immunity anyhow, a dot on a nb meant cloak was only useful for secondary effects and passives

Solariken · March 2018

It could also be interesting if they changed Cloak to be unbreakable by any damage (only reveal mechanics) but you take normal 100% damage from any DOTs or AOEs that hit you.

Would need balance testing and maybe a reveal added to a couple more abilities, but could be interesting and would take more skill to use.

TheYKcid · March 2018

@Solariken you know I've got no great love for NBs in the current patch, but I still think that entire slew of nerfs would be way too much.

In the case of stamblades (idk enough about the mag variety to comment), your first suggestion—removing the guaranteed crit heals—would be sufficient.

It would retain cloak's viability as an escape tool, but reduce it's ability to constantly reset fights. Compounding 50% DoT damage on top of that would be unnecessary and far too punishing—they'd have no good way to alleviate heavy DoT pressure. They'd get absolutely torn apart by, say, mDKs. Or the bleed-stacking builds that are becoming all too common.

Taking major resistances away from the Shadow passives would be pretty unfair as well. You have to acknowledge that Stamblades already need to maintain 4 active buffs for optimal efficacy: relentless, siphoning/leeching, rally/FM, and mirage/shuffle. This not only occupies a ton of barspace, but also consumes many GCDs intra-combat for recasting. Requiring a 5th active buff for access to the basic major resistances is asking too much.

Adding a snare purge would be redundant anyway, since Stamblades are natural medium armor and 2H users in the first place. It wouldn't be adequate compensation at all.

aeowulf · March 2018

OP, you have to look at the class as a whole.

DPS is very competitive , PVP is very competitive and your changes are targetted to these areas.

Healing & tanking are where NB changes are required, to bring them in to a competitive position. Until that is done, your class (and mine) is pidgeon holed into having to be DPS if you wish to be competitive, simply beacuse it is underperforming in the other two roles. The DPS aspect is SO important right now, because we do not have these other roles to fall back on if a change or bug breaks that area. No changes to DPS until other roles are sorted, please.

And the same applies to other classes, DK healer is probably the best example of the lot.

All classes should be competitive in every role, in their own unique style.