Help me: Healer set-up for emerging (stamina) trials group

Raudgrani · March 2018

Last night I ran normal Maw of Lorkhaj and Halls of Fabrications with a friendly/down-to-earth guild I'm in, fast and easy and very few deaths (I think we had to pick up two on the next last boss, that out of confusion was on the wrong side). I might add, that this is far from a "trials group", more of a circle of friends seeking some Saturday entertainment.

I was one of the healers, I used my Warden PVP healer. I just switched my Kagrenac's Hope for Twillight Remedy, and kept Mother's Sorrow as my secondary set. The reason I use Mother's Sorrow at all, is basically because my crit sucks in heavy armor, and because I have so many HOT's up, that I think I see a great gain in "criting ticks". I go S&B and Resto right now. S&B is of course from PVP, and I haven't ever held a destro staff in my Warden's hands - that's why I didn't use it. I find S&B nice anyway, for "turtle up" mode and spam Enchanted Growth into somewhere where there's trouble, picking people up, or if a boss or any bad ass adds slips and decides to go for me. The other healer was a Templar, using SPC and Julianos (destro/resto).

All in all, it went surprisingly well. We hardly had/have any Magicka DPS in our group (one NB and one Sorc), it's a very Stamina oriented guild in general with very few glass cannon builds. DPS is not extraordinary, but people stay alive/sustain ok. So, what would be good sets for us healers to wear? I want to keep Twillight Remedy by all means, and if I don't need to chase skyshards and level the destro tree I'd be very happy. I find the lack of Magicka DPS a tiny bit alarming for obvious reasons, and I have no Twillight Remedy lightning staff, only an Ice one.

Further on, lack of Magicka doesn't feel like it's really required to run the usual Worm's Raiment standard, but perhaps someone in the group could run Hircine's Veneer? Has ANYONE ever used that set, ever? I don't know anyone who have, I haven't even heard of anyone mentioning it - ever. As it's a very Stamina oriented group, it feels like it could be a viable alternative for someone to wear, as a substitute for Worm's. I have a very good sustain myself, I never ever run out of Magicka neither in PVE nor PVP, the Templar has no such issues either.

I might also mention, that we have no regards whatsoever so far for these "group utility sets". I mean no one wearing Ebon, no one wears Alkosh or anything like it. It's like a group of egoists suddenly running in a group, if you know what I mean. In reality we are not, of course. But there's a lot of room for improvements. ;-)

So I'll start by trying to set us healer's straight, as I know the other healer best of all, and as you have to start somewhere (later we'll deal with the tanks and the DPS people). I think that a Warden and a Templar healer might be a good start, as they are somewhat different and complement each other in a strong way. I have really strong HOT's, and the Templar is more of a emergency medic. I toss orbs, and the Templar throws shards.

I'd want us to try veteran trials, that's why I seek advice. I have never been a "meta" kind of person, ever. Not in the game, nor in real life. I basically sneer upon people blindly following masses without hesitation - I want something different. That's why I'm interested in making this Stamina heavy weirdo group a good one. I'm not nearly as entertained running with "better" groups with my Stamsorc DPS, it's too much rinse and repeat.

profundidob16_ESO · March 2018

Hey mate, first of all I applaud you for having the right mindset and trying out things first hand for yourself as well as your fellow guildies or 'raidies' rather than blindly following some meta. The main reason is this will make you fully realize and understand the limitations of certain combinations and why golden standards really truthfully are the golden standard.

In normal mode, trials can be run in just about any setup and combination. They are meant to be ultra forgiving, so much in fact that you can easily run it with an uncoordinated group of pug misfits well under cp cap and half unable to play their role correctly

Vet trials however are a different story. Feel free to experiment and go in there with whatever setup but you will soon encounter first hand the limitations of certain setups just as many before you did since beta. Then in the most natural organic growth process any organised raiding group typically will come up with group composition and redundancy improvements (because people WILL die in VET and if you only have 1 healer that is capable of emergency healing...) and so gradually certain do's and don'ts come up which eventually lead up to...the meta. So there is value to be found in that meta but only after you learn exactly why by either learning from other's mistakes or making them first for yourself. Either way it leads to inevitable certain form of min maxing in order to maximize your chances of conquering the hardest content.

That being said right now the really hard content is HM modes and after many nerfs VET trials have become much more forgiving so as long as all players know and follow the mechanics you may be able to get away with alot more different builds and group setups as when they were first released.

As main healer since beta, without trying to reinvent the wheel all over again I'd say the good sets are: SPC as golden standard for obvious 1-of-a-kind reasons, to be combined with any other set of good utility such as Julianos (max healing+dps output), seducer/magnus (max cost reduction and magicka recovery), Sanctuary (max pure healing in close range situations), Jorvuld's guidance (max buff duration), Kagrenac's (fastest rezz), Worms (magicka group utility in trials)

If you really feel that the classic worms group utility is totally useless in your particular group setup, feel free to pick any of the other useful complimentary sets that fight the trial or particular fight better. Jorvuld's is new and very nice for trials for instance.

Vircine's should be worn by at least 1 stam dps person (sacrifice a bit solo dps for awesome group utility...), not by the healer or tank because their need for another set is much greater and scarcer obviously

Raudgrani · March 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Hey mate, first of all I applaud you for having the right mindset and trying out things first hand for yourself as well as your fellow guildies or 'raidies' rather than blindly following some meta. The main reason is this will make you fully realize and understand the limitations of certain combinations and why golden standards really truthfully are the golden standard.

In normal mode, trials can be run in just about any setup and combination. They are meant to be ultra forgiving, so much in fact that you can easily run it with an uncoordinated group of pug misfits well under cp cap and half unable to play their role correctly

Vet trials however are a different story. Feel free to experiment and go in there with whatever setup but you will soon encounter first hand the limitations of certain setups just as many before you did since beta. Then in the most natural organic growth process any organised raiding group typically will come up with group composition and redundancy improvements (because people WILL die in VET and if you only have 1 healer that is capable of emergency healing...) and so gradually certain do's and don'ts come up which eventually lead up to...the meta. So there is value to be found in that meta but only after you learn exactly why by either learning from other's mistakes or making them first for yourself. Either way it leads to inevitable certain form of min maxing in order to maximize your chances of conquering the hardest content.

That being said right now the really hard content is HM modes and after many nerfs VET trials have become much more forgiving so as long as all players know and follow the mechanics you may be able to get away with alot more different builds and group setups as when they were first released.

As main healer since beta, without trying to reinvent the wheel all over again I'd say the good sets are: SPC as golden standard for obvious 1-of-a-kind reasons, to be combined with any other set of good utility such as Julianos (max healing+dps output), seducer/magnus (max cost reduction and magicka recovery), Sanctuary (max pure healing in close range situations), Jorvuld's guidance (max buff duration), Kagrenac's (fastest rezz), Worms (magicka group utility in trials)

If you really feel that the classic worms group utility is totally useless in your particular group setup, feel free to pick any of the other useful complimentary sets that fight the trial or particular fight better. Jorvuld's is new and very nice for trials for instance.

Vircine's should be worn by at least 1 stam dps person (sacrifice a bit solo dps for awesome group utility...), not by the healer or tank because their need for another set is much greater and scarcer obviously

Thank you for taking your time to answer!
I kind of realize there's need to bring in a couple more magicka builds into this and become more group focused, if we are supposed to do veteran content. I like theory crafting and so forth - so I'll try to find out what kind of more group utility we could add to this, that we are lacking.

Hehe, yes I meant that Hircine's Veneer should be worn by some stam character, not any of the healers. Question if it should be worn by the best or the worst DPS? :-) As for my healer sets, I'm not really sure. I really like my Twillight Remedy. SPC doesn't stack I suppose, even if the uptime would probably be better if it's worn by both healers. I have loads of Sanctuary, but always found it quite "meh", but it might be that you don't notice it the way you do with some other sets. Furthermore, I do have a few pieces of the new Jorvuld's set, and it indeed caught my attention, anyone really tried it yet? It seems like a very likely alternative right now.
I feel I really don't need more sustain or so, so I'm trying to look beyond that and go for some "good-for-the-group" set.

Yes. The burst heal thing is a bit problematic on a Warden, I use Enchanted Growth or Combat Prayer now, which of course isn't a fully valid alternative - but is works, as long as people ain't running around in panic like crazy. Sometimes you just can't be there close enough, or your aim sweeps by and you miss.

As a side note, we did vet Falkreath hardmode today, and neeearly did vet Mazzatun no-death right afterwards; went really fast but one lousy death at Chudan, which was pure unluck. We intend to do some training on a little more demanding dungeons during weekday evenings, to tune in for the real challenges ahead.

Aurielle · March 2018

Raudgrani wrote: »

Last night I ran normal Maw of Lorkhaj and Halls of Fabrications with a friendly/down-to-earth guild I'm in, fast and easy and very few deaths (I think we had to pick up two on the next last boss, that out of confusion was on the wrong side). I might add, that this is far from a "trials group", more of a circle of friends seeking some Saturday entertainment.

I was one of the healers, I used my Warden PVP healer. I just switched my Kagrenac's Hope for Twillight Remedy, and kept Mother's Sorrow as my secondary set. The reason I use Mother's Sorrow at all, is basically because my crit sucks in heavy armor, and because I have so many HOT's up, that I think I see a great gain in "criting ticks". I go S&B and Resto right now. S&B is of course from PVP, and I haven't ever held a destro staff in my Warden's hands - that's why I didn't use it. I find S&B nice anyway, for "turtle up" mode and spam Enchanted Growth into somewhere where there's trouble, picking people up, or if a boss or any bad ass adds slips and decides to go for me. The other healer was a Templar, using SPC and Julianos (destro/resto).

All in all, it went surprisingly well. We hardly had/have any Magicka DPS in our group (one NB and one Sorc), it's a very Stamina oriented guild in general with very few glass cannon builds. DPS is not extraordinary, but people stay alive/sustain ok. So, what would be good sets for us healers to wear? I want to keep Twillight Remedy by all means, and if I don't need to chase skyshards and level the destro tree I'd be very happy. I find the lack of Magicka DPS a tiny bit alarming for obvious reasons, and I have no Twillight Remedy lightning staff, only an Ice one.

Further on, lack of Magicka doesn't feel like it's really required to run the usual Worm's Raiment standard, but perhaps someone in the group could run Hircine's Veneer? Has ANYONE ever used that set, ever? I don't know anyone who have, I haven't even heard of anyone mentioning it - ever. As it's a very Stamina oriented group, it feels like it could be a viable alternative for someone to wear, as a substitute for Worm's. I have a very good sustain myself, I never ever run out of Magicka neither in PVE nor PVP, the Templar has no such issues either.

I might also mention, that we have no regards whatsoever so far for these "group utility sets". I mean no one wearing Ebon, no one wears Alkosh or anything like it. It's like a group of egoists suddenly running in a group, if you know what I mean. In reality we are not, of course. But there's a lot of room for improvements. ;-)

So I'll start by trying to set us healer's straight, as I know the other healer best of all, and as you have to start somewhere (later we'll deal with the tanks and the DPS people). I think that a Warden and a Templar healer might be a good start, as they are somewhat different and complement each other in a strong way. I have really strong HOT's, and the Templar is more of a emergency medic. I toss orbs, and the Templar throws shards.

I'd want us to try veteran trials, that's why I seek advice. I have never been a "meta" kind of person, ever. Not in the game, nor in real life. I basically sneer upon people blindly following masses without hesitation - I want something different. That's why I'm interested in making this Stamina heavy weirdo group a good one. I'm not nearly as entertained running with "better" groups with my Stamsorc DPS, it's too much rinse and repeat.

"Meta" means "most effective tactic available." People don't run the same sets/builds in vet trials because they're lazy sheep; they run them because they're the best builds available for the content. Kudos to you for wanting to try something different; realize, though, that "sneering" at the meta and being different for the sake of being different won't necessarily yield the results you're looking for in vet trials (esp. DLC vet trials).

profundidob16_ESO · March 2018

about Twilight remedy: yes it's another good set (that I forgot to mention) that you can use in a well organised trial group where the dps people actively use the synergies to increase their dps

about choice of healing spells: Combat prayer is probably the most amazing healing spell in the game since it's a burst heal, protects AND increases group dps ! How OP is that right ?? Where's the catch ? The catch is that it's only useful in situations where people are able (and capable and willling...) to stack properly within the bounderies of the spell. In fights like for instance the "bone menagerie" (=skeleton animals) in Fang Lair you can imagine how much more useful Healing ward is for non-templar healers...

either way you're definately on the right track and the fact that you swiftly do vFH HM and vROM nodeath is a really good sign that you are ready for vet trials, albeit you need to find 8 more people of the same skill level as those 4. If you want a good test of your skills or the possible trial group members, give HM of the new dungeons a try: vSP HM and vFL HM since everything comes together in those fights just like in a trial: good gear setup, good build, good skill

Good luck in your adventures !

Raudgrani · March 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Last night I ran normal Maw of Lorkhaj and Halls of Fabrications with a friendly/down-to-earth guild I'm in, fast and easy and very few deaths (I think we had to pick up two on the next last boss, that out of confusion was on the wrong side). I might add, that this is far from a "trials group", more of a circle of friends seeking some Saturday entertainment.

I was one of the healers, I used my Warden PVP healer. I just switched my Kagrenac's Hope for Twillight Remedy, and kept Mother's Sorrow as my secondary set. The reason I use Mother's Sorrow at all, is basically because my crit sucks in heavy armor, and because I have so many HOT's up, that I think I see a great gain in "criting ticks". I go S&B and Resto right now. S&B is of course from PVP, and I haven't ever held a destro staff in my Warden's hands - that's why I didn't use it. I find S&B nice anyway, for "turtle up" mode and spam Enchanted Growth into somewhere where there's trouble, picking people up, or if a boss or any bad ass adds slips and decides to go for me. The other healer was a Templar, using SPC and Julianos (destro/resto).

All in all, it went surprisingly well. We hardly had/have any Magicka DPS in our group (one NB and one Sorc), it's a very Stamina oriented guild in general with very few glass cannon builds. DPS is not extraordinary, but people stay alive/sustain ok. So, what would be good sets for us healers to wear? I want to keep Twillight Remedy by all means, and if I don't need to chase skyshards and level the destro tree I'd be very happy. I find the lack of Magicka DPS a tiny bit alarming for obvious reasons, and I have no Twillight Remedy lightning staff, only an Ice one.

Further on, lack of Magicka doesn't feel like it's really required to run the usual Worm's Raiment standard, but perhaps someone in the group could run Hircine's Veneer? Has ANYONE ever used that set, ever? I don't know anyone who have, I haven't even heard of anyone mentioning it - ever. As it's a very Stamina oriented group, it feels like it could be a viable alternative for someone to wear, as a substitute for Worm's. I have a very good sustain myself, I never ever run out of Magicka neither in PVE nor PVP, the Templar has no such issues either.

I might also mention, that we have no regards whatsoever so far for these "group utility sets". I mean no one wearing Ebon, no one wears Alkosh or anything like it. It's like a group of egoists suddenly running in a group, if you know what I mean. In reality we are not, of course. But there's a lot of room for improvements. ;-)

So I'll start by trying to set us healer's straight, as I know the other healer best of all, and as you have to start somewhere (later we'll deal with the tanks and the DPS people). I think that a Warden and a Templar healer might be a good start, as they are somewhat different and complement each other in a strong way. I have really strong HOT's, and the Templar is more of a emergency medic. I toss orbs, and the Templar throws shards.

I'd want us to try veteran trials, that's why I seek advice. I have never been a "meta" kind of person, ever. Not in the game, nor in real life. I basically sneer upon people blindly following masses without hesitation - I want something different. That's why I'm interested in making this Stamina heavy weirdo group a good one. I'm not nearly as entertained running with "better" groups with my Stamsorc DPS, it's too much rinse and repeat.

"Meta" means "most effective tactic available." People don't run the same sets/builds in vet trials because they're lazy sheep; they run them because they're the best builds available for the content. Kudos to you for wanting to try something different; realize, though, that "sneering" at the meta and being different for the sake of being different won't necessarily yield the results you're looking for in vet trials (esp. DLC vet trials).

That's the general idea, yes. But the "meta" changes you know, there's no denying that. And this isn't always (not even nearly) because of game changes, but because someone came up with a good build they posted on Youtube or where ever. This doesn't change existing sets, CP distribution, used food, race, class abilities etc. It's only that people didn't come up with it yet.
There are some players around, that doesn't fall into the obvious "cheat users", that still have very solid builds. They most likely sit on some "meta" that people largely are unaware of. So no. You are simply wrong.

Furthermore, I'm no "snowflake" kid being different for the sake of being different. I'm far too old for that. I have always sought alternative solutions, ways to improve things. That's why this is my profession in real life you know.

Raudgrani · March 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

about Twilight remedy: yes it's another good set (that I forgot to mention) that you can use in a well organised trial group where the dps people actively use the synergies to increase their dps

about choice of healing spells: Combat prayer is probably the most amazing healing spell in the game since it's a burst heal, protects AND increases group dps ! How OP is that right ?? Where's the catch ? The catch is that it's only useful in situations where people are able (and capable and willling...) to stack properly within the bounderies of the spell. In fights like for instance the "bone menagerie" (=skeleton animals) in Fang Lair you can imagine how much more useful Healing ward is for non-templar healers...

either way you're definately on the right track and the fact that you swiftly do vFH HM and vROM nodeath is a really good sign that you are ready for vet trials, albeit you need to find 8 more people of the same skill level as those 4. If you want a good test of your skills or the possible trial group members, give HM of the new dungeons a try: vSP HM and vFL HM since everything comes together in those fights just like in a trial: good gear setup, good build, good skill

Good luck in your adventures !

Combat Prayer is really awesome, but people seem to largely ignore it. That's why the Asylum resto staff is so good for example in PVP - people want to use it basically because they have it, and they are "forced" to cast that skill (or morph) for it to be used effectively. ;-)

Thank you for encouragement! We did Fang Lair vet a week or so ago, certainly not "no death quick run", but we did it. It's that boss with guar/tiger/bear/wolves that kept us busy for quite a while (some 40 minutes to be honest!). But I guess it's about strategy there too, we didn't know what we were doing. Will make a Scalecaller vet run soon too - I want to try the Jorvuld thing out anyway.
We are working on getting more group members motivated enough to get seriously trial ready too, offering help to farm gear (or finance purchase) over a weekend is usually enough to get people going.

Previously we had a core of 3 guys running trials, and they were - frankly - pretty elitist/fascist in their appearance, it put many of the guild members off mood, as they were more or less frightened to mess up/die (or whatever). In the end we couldn't even get a 12 man group ready - now we are forced to make at least 2 runs again (to get everybody in), each time we set up for trials.
These are however out of the guild for several reasons, and people are starting to get interested again. Now things are a lot more friendly and forgiving, but we still wish to improve slowly but steadily. If for nothing else, then just to prove to those three guys who called us "useless without them", that we indeed are not. :-)

And all this, while I have Cyrodiil to think of too! I need a 6 month vacation, now! LOL