PVP 12-person-composition! Coord Group

generalmyrick · March 2018

i ask that you if criticize then you participate

i hope that @Stoney_McGeee and @geonsocal and other pvp geniussss participate! i hope to learn a lot! :-)

here is something i whipped up that i am sure is not that great but maybe you can use the template to teach me! @everybody welcome to play.

https://twitter.com/TheMyRickCorp/status/975393500060463104

Checkmath · March 2018

i would replace the beckoning steel dks with stamsorcs or warden, which are able to aoe finish with shalks, steeltornado and boundless storm and can provide speedbuff.
for the magclasses (especially sorcs) you have to be more and get more damage out of them.

generalmyrick · March 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

i would replace the beckoning steel dks with stamsorcs or warden, which are able to aoe finish with shalks, steeltornado and boundless storm and can provide speedbuff.
for the magclasses (especially sorcs) you have to be more and get more damage out of them.

make yours! :-)

i showed you mine!

Checkmath · March 2018

1. argonian templar, seducer, transmutation, trollking
2. argonian templar, seducer, wizards riposte, earthgore
3. argonian templar, duroks bane, sanctuary, earthgore
4. redguard sorc, shacklebreaker, hircine
5. redguard sorc, automaton, shacklebreaker
6. altmer nightblade, vicious death, spinners, earthgore
7. altmer nightblade, vicious death, spinners, grothdar
8. altmer nightblade, vicious death, spinners, grothdar
9. redguard warden, shacklebreaker, bone pirate, bloodspawn
10. altmer sorc, vicious death, spinners, grothdar

i think that would be my in haste written group setup, further magicka nightblades can be added.

Stoney_McGeee · March 2018

Personally I don’t really get uptight with races.
But I’ll tell you what my group cons are like.
•2-3 MagNBs Spinners/VD/Grothgar
•2-3 MagDks sun/grothgar/VD
•2 MagWardens vd/nerco/grothgar
•1 MagNB purger suducer/lich/earthgore
• 4 healers (master resto/earthgore/ lich) then have all of them wear Spell power cure/ gossamer/ lightspeaker/ trans / sanctuary
2 sorcs negate tank / dps

That’s basicly my ideal group coms and what I get my people to wear.
The problems you’ll face is finding players who don’t want to work together and don’t see your vision of gamestyle.
There’s also many other groups comes you can do.
You can have raids of all stam builds , or have a all batswarm group, or a bombing group, my group is for sustaining long period of fights and trying to keep going and stay going.
Some groups like nesquick run similar coms but they use mechanical but the proc imo is OP but if you get a destro back to back and have to use it, that 2nd destro will be weak af idc what anyone says. Consisten group Aoe with hots over healing dots you won’t die.
Gotta love math.

Main things hard to do and find is
1. Good pro healers that don’t BoL everything
2. Good crown and sense of direction and environmental awareness
3. People who can react quick and respond quick
4. Knowing the right times to be defensive and offensive
5. Good bombers who aren’t impatient and can hold their destro, you don’t need more then 2-3 destros, unless you’re going for less entertainment purposes and just want to Zerg.

generalmyrick · March 2018

@Stoney_McGeee thank you so much! I'm hoping someone argues with you so i can get a some more learning!

Question = when things go wrong what gives yours groups the most trouble that you didn't already list? Or maybe not go wrong but gives your group trouble?

Checkmath · March 2018

@Stoney_McGeee
does your group run any mobility skills like defensive maneuver?
wouldnt a magsorc fill in the job better for purging?
and i dont see the point in 3 different magicka dd classes in your group. what do they different, since if there is no big difference, wouldnt make it more sense to only run with magblades dd's?

not arguing, only curious about the reasons behind that.

imredneckson · March 2018

Best setup imo for a 12 player group setup would be -

4x Templar Healers
2x Bomblades
3x Stamina Wardens
2x Magicka Sorcs
1x Stamina Sorc support

Each Templar using one group buff set at the least
Bomblades ...well blow up the enemy

Stamina Wardens have a damn good amount of burst and their ability to give Minor Toughness is all around a great group buff
Magicka Sorcs for both high damage and/or negates
Stamina Sorc support to keep the group moving and for more buff than most in the group. Their Negate also helps out a ton

Stoney_McGeee · March 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

@Stoney_McGeee
does your group run any mobility skills like defensive maneuver?
wouldnt a magsorc fill in the job better for purging?
and i dont see the point in 3 different magicka dd classes in your group. what do they different, since if there is no big difference, wouldnt make it more sense to only run with magblades dd's?

not arguing, only curious about the reasons behind that.

Usually the negate tank will be running RM or well have a stam warden running powerfully assault with RM.
The reason I like to have a balance of DDs and not just bombers is because bombers are squishy, wardens offer a nice ulti that hugs destro, including banners from DKs.

Another note to add is if you have Other DDs who don’t have Vd, take the kills it won’t proc VD.
Which is why it’s not good, imo to have a mix of stam and magic in a group because if stam is excuting and taking kills , your main destros won’t have be up in time.

Destros = main dps
Permafrost = support to the destro + Dmg + hard CC + damage reduction
Banner= defile and a nice burn + shackle synergy is nasty with a negate
Negate = speaks for itself

Also WoE and timing that together with proxy’s can be a game changer.

GreenhaloX · March 2018

generalmyrick wrote: »

i ask that you if criticize then you participate

i hope that @Stoney_McGeee and @geonsocal and other pvp geniussss participate! i hope to learn a lot! :-)

here is something i whipped up that i am sure is not that great but maybe you can use the template to teach me! @everybody welcome to play.

https://twitter.com/TheMyRickCorp/status/975393500060463104

So, why 12? Is 12 better for a group than 10 or 20?

Waffennacht · March 2018

Love "tank-ish" I know what you mean, still cracks me up though.

I keep thinking, "that's what they need to rename tank to for group finder"

geonsocal · March 2018

howdy @generalmyrick ...and, a very happy sunday to you and all

first things first - do you prefer: general, rick, or something else in game/on forums?

since I was a little kid, sunday has always been my favorite day of the week...

no school/work, do most your chores/errands on saturday - and, just chill outside and around the house on sunday...

nowadays, usually indulge in a good sunday meal, play with the godkids if they're visiting - if not stay medicated and marinated and spend some time watching tv or doing a little gardening (gardening is a sure sign you've gotten old

)...

no kids this weekend, so i'm drinking and smoking lunch...

saw your post earlier general, my first thought was that i'm probably a really poor person to answer this question - I haven't grouped in pvp for a long time, and, i rarely run dungeons or have ever done a trial...

so, in all honesty - I just don't know much of group dynamics and what would work best...

having said all that - here's what I would want to roll with:

- (4) nightblades, (2 mag, 2 stam, all focused on crowd control and damage)
- (2) templars (2 mag healers, group buffers and ranged debuffers)
- (2) dk (1 mag focused on fire aoe, 1 stam focused on tanking)
- (2) sorc (1 mag, 1 stam, both focused on mobility and range aoe)
- (2) wardens (1 mag focused on healing, group support and tanking, 1 stam focused on debuff and damage)

I play all the classes (stam, mag), and races...

I'd probably want to bring my breton magblade to the party...

IxSTALKERxI · March 2018

It's a nice start but it can be improved quite a bit. Stoney McGeee & imredneckson have the right idea.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

So, why 12? Is 12 better for a group than 10 or 20?

So long as you have the correct ratio of roles for the group size. If you add more people to group it actually will make your group weaker, not stronger, if it lowers the healer:support:dps ratio. I refer to this as the 'sponge' theory. I don't like letting 'sponges' join group and soaking up heals that could go to someone else. Some people in the community would probably refer to this as 'elitism' though but it's just part of trying to make a strong group..

Twelve is a good number as it is large enough to fit the required builds for the group to survive. I've min-maxed groups as small as 6 in the past that had a perfect role ratio also but I sacrificed a few things to achieve that, basically you need minimum 6-12 to make a strong group. Also, it is difficult to get the correct number of roles in a group and the larger the group, the more difficult it becomes to have the correct ratio.

Also since aoe cap removal it would most likely be stronger in theory to run 2 separate 12 mans than 1 24 man in a GvG scenario, though haven't tried and don't plan to... (in ESO anyway) as I don't play much anymore.

Stoney_McGeee · March 2018

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

It's a nice start but it can be improved quite a bit. Stoney McGeee & imredneckson have the right idea.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

So, why 12? Is 12 better for a group than 10 or 20?

So long as you have the correct ratio of roles for the group size. If you add more people to group it actually will make your group weaker, not stronger, if it lowers the healer:support:dps ratio. I refer to this as the 'sponge' theory. I don't like letting 'sponges' join group and soaking up heals that could go to someone else. Some people in the community would probably refer to this as 'elitism' though but it's just part of trying to make a strong group..

Twelve is a good number as it is large enough to fit the required builds for the group to survive. I've min-maxed groups as small as 6 in the past that had a perfect role ratio also but I sacrificed a few things to achieve that, basically you need minimum 6-12 to make a strong group. Also, it is difficult to get the correct number of roles in a group and the larger the group, the more difficult it becomes to have the correct ratio.

Also since aoe cap removal it would most likely be stronger in theory to run 2 separate 12 mans than 1 24 man in a GvG scenario, though haven't tried and don't plan to... (in ESO anyway) as I don't play much anymore.

Well said, also I’ll add to it that purges and rapids hits 6 people (unless they changed that) so 12 people is solid because the support roles only have to hit the button twice vs a extra time insuring everyone gets (rapids, purges) if half the group gets separated it’s a whype.

IxSTALKERxI · March 2018

Stoney_McGeee wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

It's a nice start but it can be improved quite a bit. Stoney McGeee & imredneckson have the right idea.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

So, why 12? Is 12 better for a group than 10 or 20?

So long as you have the correct ratio of roles for the group size. If you add more people to group it actually will make your group weaker, not stronger, if it lowers the healer:support:dps ratio. I refer to this as the 'sponge' theory. I don't like letting 'sponges' join group and soaking up heals that could go to someone else. Some people in the community would probably refer to this as 'elitism' though but it's just part of trying to make a strong group..

Twelve is a good number as it is large enough to fit the required builds for the group to survive. I've min-maxed groups as small as 6 in the past that had a perfect role ratio also but I sacrificed a few things to achieve that, basically you need minimum 6-12 to make a strong group. Also, it is difficult to get the correct number of roles in a group and the larger the group, the more difficult it becomes to have the correct ratio.

Also since aoe cap removal it would most likely be stronger in theory to run 2 separate 12 mans than 1 24 man in a GvG scenario, though haven't tried and don't plan to... (in ESO anyway) as I don't play much anymore.

Well said, also I’ll add to it that purges and rapids hits 6 people (unless they changed that) so 12 people is solid because the support roles only have to hit the button twice vs a extra time insuring everyone gets (rapids, purges) if half the group gets separated it’s a whype.

Yeah exactly, basically you build a ratio based off the target cap of 6. I personally prefer 6 DPS : 4 healer : 2 support (the healer/support ratio may vary depending on builds). I've also done 6 man with 3 DPS:2healer:1Support.

I've also done some crazy setups with 0 healers and everyone with off heals instead which actually worked but wasn't as strong obviously. Was easy though coz we could be casuals and just log in and play as a group without worrying about group comp lol.

Thraben · March 2018

The sponge theory is right. I create group setups for 6 for that reason and double it simply, replacing the support sets (and creating a flex role because 1 support warden is enough)

Having said that:

1) The StamNB is a sponge, and a huge one at that. Even worse, he must be extremely vulnerable to even achieve modest success. Most are potential VD sleeper cells for the opponent. Give that role for a dual purpose MagNB. Besides, Debuffing healers (Warden) is generally better than interrupting them (MagDK!).

2) A normal bomb attack (a charge) consists of 3 Storms, 1 Negate, 1 Permafrost. So a WARDEN must be added. The only Stamclasses that CAN be stacked are Wardens and StamSorcs, because of their superior survivability and AoE DPS.

3) Beckoning steel is not particularly useful on DK - in fact, it is better on a warden, if at all. A good group is basically immune to projectiles anyway due to its HPS of over 6000/ second, and purge.

4) Don´t underestimate the monster sets. They are generally more important than having some spell penetration. Particularly Earthgore. Lord Warden is useless in real combat situations.

5) StamDK have no place in a good group unless you are carrying them by purpose (we do that), or unless they debuff enemies with Vanguard´s Challenge (and then only against guild groups).

6) And most importantly: You have to be 110% clear what playstyle the group prefers. There is a trade-off between power against PuGs and power against other guild groups which influences the group composition. A MagDK for instance is inferior to a MagBlade in his core role, but excels against other guild groups; also, as a general rule, the farther you are away from your support base, the more healers are required.

7) Also, you have to decide whether you use real specialists or whether you have secondary roles: In your example there is only one rapid bot. I would consider this dangerous. One lag, one loading screen, and 12 people are dead. A well played stam warden can play purge AND rapid assist at the SAME TIME. Of course, you only need one, not 2, in a 12-person group.

Thogard · March 2018

12 earthgores. Pretty sure that’s a class because that set accomplishes far more than the characters wearing it.

Ragnarock41 · March 2018

Unless the player is outstanding, having a tank DK is a huuuuge waste.

Just get a proper mDk , or a stamDK with fasallas+duroks

GreenhaloX · March 2018

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

It's a nice start but it can be improved quite a bit. Stoney McGeee & imredneckson have the right idea.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

So, why 12? Is 12 better for a group than 10 or 20?

So long as you have the correct ratio of roles for the group size. If you add more people to group it actually will make your group weaker, not stronger, if it lowers the healer:support:dps ratio. I refer to this as the 'sponge' theory. I don't like letting 'sponges' join group and soaking up heals that could go to someone else. Some people in the community would probably refer to this as 'elitism' though but it's just part of trying to make a strong group..

Twelve is a good number as it is large enough to fit the required builds for the group to survive. I've min-maxed groups as small as 6 in the past that had a perfect role ratio also but I sacrificed a few things to achieve that, basically you need minimum 6-12 to make a strong group. Also, it is difficult to get the correct number of roles in a group and the larger the group, the more difficult it becomes to have the correct ratio.

Also since aoe cap removal it would most likely be stronger in theory to run 2 separate 12 mans than 1 24 man in a GvG scenario, though haven't tried and don't plan to... (in ESO anyway) as I don't play much anymore.

Ok.. thank you for the insight. That is interesting, and there is such a Red faction group (seems like they are about 12) in PS4/NA going about, and they seem to be very good and organized. Any opposing force less than that would be wrecked, but the group also do get wrecked by a larger group here and there. They always favor the high ground and give a good fight, whether they win or get wiped. I really hate going up against this certain Red raiding group. Ha ha

Sandman929 · March 2018

Damage:
5-6 Mag NBs: Kags or Mechanical + VD + Grothdarr, EotS and Soul Harvest (for ulti gen only). I don't much reason for damage be be another class with everything NBs have in terms of AoE damage/healing with Sap and ulti return with Soul Harvest.
3 Templar Healers: Kags + SPC, Trans + Earthgore, Shooting Star and Remembrance
2-3 Stam Support Sorcs: Bone Pirate + Hircene, Ranger, Ebon, Marksman + Earthgore, Negate, Rapids, Caltrops, Streak
1-2 Magicka Support Wardens: Sanctuary, Seducer, Alt Mastery, Worms + Earthgore...enough sustain for Purge spamming, Permafrost, Corrupting Pollen, Support healing
25k Health minimum on everyone

Psiion · May 2021

Greetings,

Due to the age of this thread, and the fact it contains outdated information, we have gone ahead and closed it down.

If anyone would like to continue this discussion, please feel free to do so on a current, open thread.