Heavy armor- PVP

Skander · March 2018

You have done it, it's now useless for magicka chars

Stamina can make it work of course, becouse stamina can do everything without giving back anything

Glockcoma725 · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

Stamina can make it work of course, becouse stamina can do everything without giving back anything

Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange.

Sanctum74 · March 2018

What did they change that affects heavy armor magic users? Nothing I'm aware of, still op IF you know what you're doing.

ForsakenSin · March 2018

Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.

Points if you know where this is from no cheating ! hehehe

ForsakenSin · March 2018

@Glockcoma725

Damm it you beat me to it LOL

Glockcoma725 · March 2018

ForsakenSin wrote: »

@Glockcoma725

Damm it you beat me to it LOL

Best show ever

Minno · March 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

What did they change that affects heavy armor magic users? Nothing I'm aware of, still op IF you know what you're doing.

DMG removal on wraith passive. Without it, it's a tank armor for mag builds.

You can be tankier in LA, since you can fit 2 defense sets without giving up 40% crit, 4k penetration and have over 15% cost reduction plus 20% Regen.

Defile meta ruins the 8% healing received bonus and Constitution only makes up around 134 Regen to mag/Stam. The health bonus is nice, recovery bonus is weak unless paired with health Regen sets and the heavy attack Regen has too many counters for mag builds to rely on.

That's why heavy armor is suboptimal for mag builds.

Sanctum74 · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

What did they change that affects heavy armor magic users? Nothing I'm aware of, still op IF you know what you're doing.

DMG removal on wraith passive. Without it, it's a tank armor for mag builds.

You can be tankier in LA, since you can fit 2 defense sets without giving up 40% crit, 4k penetration and have over 15% cost reduction plus 20% Regen.

Defile meta ruins the 8% healing received bonus and Constitution only makes up around 134 Regen to mag/Stam. The health bonus is nice, recovery bonus is weak unless paired with health Regen sets and the heavy attack Regen has too many counters for mag builds to rely on.

That's why heavy armor is suboptimal for mag builds.

Wrath passive was removed months ago and really did nothing to affect killing power. The extra crit from LA is minimal and is just rng anyway so really doesn't offer much benefit unless you build around it.

HA will always be tankier even if your wearing 2 LA defensive sets, not to mention you're only going to kill potatoes with 2 defensive LA sets on.

The extra health, resistance, and healing makes a huge difference when out numbered where as LA you have to shield up and run away if your fighting more than 2 people at once. Defile is much worse with LA.

Recovery is bugged now and often stops in combat so the little bit of extra recovery and reduction doesn't really amount to much and with HA/resto I can get my resources back much quicker then you can with LA, not to mention constitution makes up for the loss of recovery/reduction and I get stamina back too.

So that just leaves penetration which you can get from spinners jewelry and weapons which will let you stay in HA as well as CP and sharpened weapons.

Heavy armor is still very viable especially for open world solo play. Switched over a year ago and haven't looked back since.

Ariades_swe · March 2018

Im undecided atm. Been trying out heavy axiom, necropotence and and shadowrend on my magplar last few days. It seems to work out pretty well for me. Tried the same build out with 5 LA but I felt too squishy for my taste.
Not sure if I prefer it over my LA build with overwhelming and riposte yet though.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Yeah, constitution+wrath should be reverted and the heavy hitter sets focused instead. Heavy just plain tank armour in a game that constantly nerfs tanks and minno hit the nail why light is better.

I do occasionally run it as a tankier build for openworld. (I wouldn't have to if block wasn't nerfed so much that it is impossible to sustain it against 2+ and DK doesn't have other defenses.) The damage and sustain loss is massive. And loss of damage means more hits to kill, which is a loss of sustain.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

What did they change that affects heavy armor magic users? Nothing I'm aware of, still op IF you know what you're doing.

DMG removal on wraith passive. Without it, it's a tank armor for mag builds.

You can be tankier in LA, since you can fit 2 defense sets without giving up 40% crit, 4k penetration and have over 15% cost reduction plus 20% Regen.

Defile meta ruins the 8% healing received bonus and Constitution only makes up around 134 Regen to mag/Stam. The health bonus is nice, recovery bonus is weak unless paired with health Regen sets and the heavy attack Regen has too many counters for mag builds to rely on.

That's why heavy armor is suboptimal for mag builds.

Wrath passive was removed months ago and really did nothing to affect killing power. The extra crit from LA is minimal and is just rng anyway so really doesn't offer much benefit unless you build around it.

HA will always be tankier even if your wearing 2 LA defensive sets, not to mention you're only going to kill potatoes with 2 defensive LA sets on.

The extra health, resistance, and healing makes a huge difference when out numbered where as LA you have to shield up and run away if your fighting more than 2 people at once. Defile is much worse with LA.

Recovery is bugged now and often stops in combat so the little bit of extra recovery and reduction doesn't really amount to much and with HA/resto I can get my resources back much quicker then you can with LA, not to mention constitution makes up for the loss of recovery/reduction and I get stamina back too.

So that just leaves penetration which you can get from spinners jewelry and weapons which will let you stay in HA as well as CP and sharpened weapons.

Heavy armor is still very viable especially for open world solo play. Switched over a year ago and haven't looked back since.

Wrath didn't hurt too much if you were stam with over 4k buffed. If you were mag it was more obvious, 200sp is more than a jewlery glyph, and pre buff. Would you just drop 250 buffed spell damage?

The extra pen, sustain and crit is quite noticeable too. Running 2 "defense" sets (More utility defense like riposte or bloodspawn in monster instead of skoria, in heavy I pretty much need skoria for pressure due to low stats) can make you comparably survivable with more intelligent plays, more sustain = more shielding/mobility. Heavy is safer off the bat though, so if you want to survive getting ganked or similar, go heavy.

Minno · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

What did they change that affects heavy armor magic users? Nothing I'm aware of, still op IF you know what you're doing.

DMG removal on wraith passive. Without it, it's a tank armor for mag builds.

You can be tankier in LA, since you can fit 2 defense sets without giving up 40% crit, 4k penetration and have over 15% cost reduction plus 20% Regen.

Defile meta ruins the 8% healing received bonus and Constitution only makes up around 134 Regen to mag/Stam. The health bonus is nice, recovery bonus is weak unless paired with health Regen sets and the heavy attack Regen has too many counters for mag builds to rely on.

That's why heavy armor is suboptimal for mag builds.

Wrath passive was removed months ago and really did nothing to affect killing power. The extra crit from LA is minimal and is just rng anyway so really doesn't offer much benefit unless you build around it.

HA will always be tankier even if your wearing 2 LA defensive sets, not to mention you're only going to kill potatoes with 2 defensive LA sets on.

The extra health, resistance, and healing makes a huge difference when out numbered where as LA you have to shield up and run away if your fighting more than 2 people at once. Defile is much worse with LA.

Recovery is bugged now and often stops in combat so the little bit of extra recovery and reduction doesn't really amount to much and with HA/resto I can get my resources back much quicker then you can with LA, not to mention constitution makes up for the loss of recovery/reduction and I get stamina back too.

So that just leaves penetration which you can get from spinners jewelry and weapons which will let you stay in HA as well as CP and sharpened weapons.

Heavy armor is still very viable especially for open world solo play. Switched over a year ago and haven't looked back since.

Wrath didn't hurt too much if you were stam with over 4k buffed. If you were mag it was more obvious, 200sp is more than a jewlery glyph, and pre buff. Would you just drop 250 buffed spell damage?

The extra pen, sustain and crit is quite noticeable too. Running 2 "defense" sets (More utility defense like riposte or bloodspawn in monster instead of skoria, in heavy I pretty much need skoria for pressure due to low stats) can make you comparably survivable with more intelligent plays, more sustain = more shielding/mobility. Heavy is safer off the bat though, so if you want to survive getting ganked or similar, go heavy.

Crit chance increases your burst and outside of specific sets is really hard to increase past 35% in CP.

Though next patch crit DMG will be nerfed because apparently it's a bug due to its increasing on crit heals. That will make HA even more useless lol.

Skander · March 2018

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

Aedaryl · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

Skander · March 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Sanctum74 · March 2018

Other than a shield stacking sorc in a 1v1, they can't be more tanky in LA. HA will always be tankier and that's just a fact. If you're building for max damage then your doing it wrong. Combos and timed cc's kill, not max damage.

The wrath passive made no difference. What? maybe it added 600 damage to your spammable attack, then reduce it for battle spirit and resistances and your lucky to get an extra 200 damage at most. Even if they gave the wrath passive to LA I would still use HA because it's still that good if you build right.

Skander · March 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Other than a shield stacking sorc in a 1v1, they can't be more tanky in LA. HA will always be tankier and that's just a fact. If you're building for max damage then your doing it wrong. Combos and timed cc's kill, not max damage.

The wrath passive made no difference. What? maybe it added 600 damage to your spammable attack, then reduce it for battle spirit and resistances and your lucky to get an extra 200 damage at most. Even if they gave the wrath passive to LA I would still use HA because it's still that good if you build right.

With a magplar you can rune the minor protection rune + wizard riposte and have the same dmg of a full dmg heavy build. that's quite a difference tho

Aedaryl · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

Skander · March 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

But my skills cost 1k magicka more. Literally. They got from 3k to 4k if i run a dmg set in heavy

Aedaryl · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

But my skills cost 1k magicka more. Literally. They got from 3k to 4k if i run a dmg set in heavy

I've trouble to trust you, your most expensive skill honor of the dead cost 4.6k, light armor 5 pieces give you 10% reduce cost, that's 460, its far from 1k

Skander · March 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

But my skills cost 1k magicka more. Literally. They got from 3k to 4k if i run a dmg set in heavy

I've trouble to trust you, your most expensive skill honor of the dead cost 4.6k, light armor 5 pieces give you 10% reduce cost, that's 460, its far from 1k

The most expensive skill is purify that got literally 1k increase in heavy. HtD is not counted becouse it's "refounded" a little. But yeah. You still aren't tanky enough for the cost of the skills you have

Aedaryl · March 2018

How much cost purify ?

You need a 12.5k cost to have 1k cost difference between light and heavy if you run a good build (meaning 5/1/1) there is 8% cost difference between 5/1/1 light and 5/1/1 heavy

Skander · March 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

How much cost purify ?

You need a 12.5k cost to have 1k cost difference between light and heavy if you run a good build (meaning 5/1/1) there is 8% cost difference between 5/1/1 light and 5/1/1 heavy

I have the tooltip right here. It's 3.1k in light and 4k in heavy

Aedaryl · March 2018

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

How much cost purify ?

You need a 12.5k cost to have 1k cost difference between light and heavy if you run a good build (meaning 5/1/1) there is 8% cost difference between 5/1/1 light and 5/1/1 heavy

I have the tooltip right here. It's 3.1k in light and 4k in heavy

This is impossible the difference is comming only from 5/1/1 light VS 5/1/1 heavy.

Sanctum74 · March 2018

Heavy is fine, but if you wanted to make a reduce Templar skill cost thread then I would be behind it 100%. Sounds like that's the real problem.

Templar skills are so expensive and need to be continually recast as you move so just keeping up buffs in flowing combat is expensive and then to have most of your skills get rng shuffle dodged your out of magic real quick. Unfortunately sustain is the main reason I rarely play my magplar anymore.

Aedaryl · March 2018

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Heavy is fine, but if you wanted to make a reduce Templar skill cost thread then I would be behind it 100%. Sounds like that's the real problem.

Templar skills are so expensive and need to be continually recast as you move so just keeping up buffs in flowing combat is expensive and then to have most of your skills get rng shuffle dodged your out of magic real quick. Unfortunately sustain is the main reason I rarely play my magplar anymore.

Nooope sustaining on magplar isn't hard because minor magicka steal + rune focus magicka back + cheap channeled spammable + 60% cost back on your main heal/panic button

Minno · March 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

But my skills cost 1k magicka more. Literally. They got from 3k to 4k if i run a dmg set in heavy

I've trouble to trust you, your most expensive skill honor of the dead cost 4.6k, light armor 5 pieces give you 10% reduce cost, that's 460, its far from 1k

16% as a Breton. Bol costs 3800. 4.6-3.8 is 800. Then round up because ZoS math reasoning and now you get 1k lol.

Aedaryl · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

But my skills cost 1k magicka more. Literally. They got from 3k to 4k if i run a dmg set in heavy

I've trouble to trust you, your most expensive skill honor of the dead cost 4.6k, light armor 5 pieces give you 10% reduce cost, that's 460, its far from 1k

16% as a Breton. Bol costs 3800. 4.6-3.8 is 800. Then round up because ZoS math reasoning and now you get 1k lol.

Nope I stop u here : 4.6 is the cost without breton without armor and without templar passive.

Why 16% "as breton" ?

10% from LA + 4% passive + 3% breton = 17% VS 2% LA + 4% passive + 3% breton = 9%

8% difference.

(Is it additive or multiplicative ?)

Lexxypwns · March 2018

I’m pretty sure that if you want to make heavy work that a Nirn Lightning staff will outperform DW since you get elemental drain. Either that or an ice staff back bar with a nirn+Infused DW front bar

Aedaryl · March 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I’m pretty sure that if you want to make heavy work that a Nirn Lightning staff will outperform DW since you get elemental drain. Either that or an ice staff back bar with a nirn+Infused DW front bar

So you need to use a 5 pieces spell damage proc set or a 5 pieces sustain set if you want to keep skoria.

Spell power cure or lich in jewelry + 1 body + weapon is good for that so

Minno · March 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The matter is: Why bother to have heavy armor, if someone in light or medium can be more tanky and have more dmg?

On a magplar I think heavy armor is worth it.

Templar have non regen sustain from skills and can be easely played with low recovery, that's why they synergise well with heavy armor. The constitution passive is very nice for stamina (block) managment.

Heavy armor make you tanky without being bind to wizard riposte, it create the possibilty to use a more damage oriented set.

The magicka templar I fear the most is @Checkmath , he is a good heavy magplar theorycrafter and he is able to manage damage receive very well and he still have great damage (maybe because I've low spell resistance ?)

I summon him here to give us his experienced opinion !

It's not really worth it tho, the lack of dmg is huge and the resistances are kinda non existent, i've bearly notice a difference switching to light

Well, the spell damage you gain from being in heavy armor (gain because u remove wizard for a damage set) make your heal better and it's a think penetration doesn't do, associated with better block managment, health increase, 8% more healing, it make you tankier and better to deal with defile.

But my skills cost 1k magicka more. Literally. They got from 3k to 4k if i run a dmg set in heavy

I've trouble to trust you, your most expensive skill honor of the dead cost 4.6k, light armor 5 pieces give you 10% reduce cost, that's 460, its far from 1k

16% as a Breton. Bol costs 3800. 4.6-3.8 is 800. Then round up because ZoS math reasoning and now you get 1k lol.

Nope I stop u here : 4.6 is the cost without breton without armor and without templar passive.

Why 16% "as breton" ?

It was in addition to the conversation. Topic was on Templar, then light armor 10% was mentioned, and then I mention Breton.

The full package is actually 17% cost reduction, I forgot Templar passive is 4% not 3%.