Many progression guilds advertise they need DPS "> 35K". Good bye sorcs?

CompM4s · March 2018

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Vaoh · March 2018

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

Asardes · March 2018

I can dry parse ~25K on non-pet magicka sorcerer and around ~30K when also using food and dropped potions (1 less heavy attack per rotation) with critical surge and self applied drain on the 6M. I do "dry" parses, meaning no food buff or potions because I want to endlessly practice my back bar LA weaving, which is my weak spot and see how much I can improve. If I used spell power potions, dropped surge and used frags I could probably parse around 33-35K. So it's totally doable, if you practice enough. I plan on practicing weaves for an average of 2 hours per day until I get it right, since I need ranged DDs to progress the new trials, specifically AS, which doesn't allow melee. Ranged Templar is about the same DPS, with a similar rotation on front bar 3 FP with 2HA in between. Gear used 5 Julianos 5 Infallible Mage 1 Molag Kena or Iceheart, Apprentice mundus, maximum health+magicka food (when I use it).

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

Dps goes up in trials not down unless your uncoordinated

Illurian · March 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

Dps goes up in trials not down unless your uncoordinated

Both are true, depending on the fight. In a static fight with not many boss mechanics (I'm thinking something like vAA), your dps will go up because of the buffs/debuffs from the group.

However in fights with a lot of boss movement/mechanics (vAS for example where the boss jumps around, you have to focus protectors or mini bosses in +1 and +2 etc), your dps can drop quite a bit from what you see on a skele parse.

diabolick90 · March 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

In some trials yes, it drop, but not in all, and let`s not forgot that there are healers with spc and combat prayer, other synergies and so on that will buff you dps a lot. So in many trials your dps must me better then on dummy. For exemple on last boss in vMoL an 30k dps should transform in at least 45k.
On skeleton you should learn the rotation and see an average number of dps only, because it will never reflect the good/bad player you are.
For example I saw many players who can pull 45k+ and I saw many of them dead on bosses in vtrials, so their dps its 0 if they are dead and the group dps decrease because other need to stop dps to rest them. So in many situation you better learn the mechanics instead of pulling 45k+ dps and die a lot on bosses in vtrials

Vahrokh · March 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

Dps goes up in trials not down unless your uncoordinated

Sadly the "uncoordinated" thing seems the norm. I've done trials with several guilds, almost in all of them my DPS dropped even noticeably! One day, in the most asinine fight (1st boss in vAA) I found myself doing 9k DPS!!!
It's funny, because the next day, with another guild, I did 28k. Same rotation, same everything.

All it takes is for tanks to debuff less / worse, healers to not cast drain, templar(s) not applying their debuff... and your DPS shall suck, terribly.

Sadly, I have yet to find a single guild, able to keep up Alkosh & Torug's Pact.

An example with AoE on trash: with one guild I achieved 120K DPS. With 90% of the others guilds, doing the same identical spawn, with same gear, spec, food, I can't get to above 60k. What changes?

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Illurian wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

Dps goes up in trials not down unless your uncoordinated

Both are true, depending on the fight. In a static fight with not many boss mechanics (I'm thinking something like vAA), your dps will go up because of the buffs/debuffs from the group.

However in fights with a lot of boss movement/mechanics (vAS for example where the boss jumps around, you have to focus protectors or mini bosses in +1 and +2 etc), your dps can drop quite a bit from what you see on a skele parse.

Vass is literally the only 12 man trial were you'd expect lower then skele parse. Even on a slightly mobile rahkat on hm id expect at least 54k on my stamdk in buff sets. Even in vhof you can get higher then a skele parse if no one is ***

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

@Vahrokh are you pc na if so I might have a guild for you

Tasear · March 2018

cough, cough, it's time to buff sorcs yes, yes... @ZOS_Wrobel

diabolick90 · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

If you can sustain 25k+ dps consistantly there are no real reasons you cant do vet trials. 40k dps on a dummy doesnt show skill on if the person know mechanics or has the ability to learn mechanics on vet trials. Skill is more than perfecting a rotation on a dummy that doesnt hit back.

Well the general idea is that in a trial, DPS drops a lot due to mechanics. You have to adapt/mess around with rotations.

If you can barely hit a passable numbers or maintain a rotation vs a target dummy, how can you possibly perform even decently in a real trial?

I never liked Target Skeleton parses much tbh. What I look for though is rotation. If the rotation is solid then the player is 100% ready to use that character in all content.

Dps goes up in trials not down unless your uncoordinated

Sadly the "uncoordinated" thing seems the norm. I've done trials with several guilds, almost in all of them my DPS dropped even noticeably! One day, in the most asinine fight (1st boss in vAA) I found myself doing 9k DPS!!!
It's funny, because the next day, with another guild, I did 28k. Same rotation, same everything.

All it takes is for tanks to debuff less / worse, healers to not cast drain, templar(s) not applying their debuff... and your DPS shall suck, terribly.

Sadly, I have yet to find a single guild, able to keep up Alkosh & Torug's Pact.

An example with AoE on trash: with one guild I achieved 120K DPS. With 90% of the others guilds, doing the same identical spawn, with same gear, spec, food, I can't get to above 60k. What changes?

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

9k dps on first boss in vAA? I understand that you run every few sec but keep all dots / aoe on him all time and it will never drop dps that low, sec, when you run with a guild, be sure that they use some support build on healers or they buff, for exp spc need to be up more then 90% on that boss. and for sure you made some mistakes if you got only 9k dps

Feanor · March 2018

It’s the consequence of trials with 8 mSorcs and familiar DPS being so absurd for quite some time. The pendulum ZOS uses for balance seldom stops at a middle ground. It’s either OP or underwhelming.

ccfeeling · March 2018

9k?
Please gold your weapon from white

Dracane · March 2018

It has little to do with knowledge or skill, only with the right addon/s

Get an addon like Andy and it tells you exactly when you must recast your abilities. There is no secret, besides the proper gear perhaps. When you play on console, you must accept that you in fact need more skill in order to compete, or that you simply won't achieve the same dps numbers as PC addon users. (The in built debuff and buff tracker is actually not bad though, it's the only one I'm using and am happy with it)

Vahrokh · March 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

@Vahrokh are you pc na if so I might have a guild for you

Sorry, I am PC but EU.

Turelus · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

But one can help others get as good as him so that everyone is gud together.

Apache_Kid · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

As I said in another thread just a moment ago if you're looking to be a serious end game progression player part of that is accepting your favourite class might spend time on the shelf during some patches.

You could also look for guilds which are not so focused on crazy and inflated numbers (or start your own), but if you're trying to be a true end game player who wants to push for things you need to accept sometimes some classes or builds are not up to par with what's best during that patch.

Now imagine how everyone who mains a Warden has felt since their release. I'm also not sure what you want ZOS (Gina) to do about this? It seems your issue is with how the community and a number of guilds handle things, unless you're asking for a Mag Sorc buff (in which case it's Wrobel you want to speak with).

Also I play a MagNB and get 20k DPS average, I lack the player skill for more.

Just so much lol. You're not wrong at all. You're right, but the whole idea is just absurd. This game doesn't make any sense sometimes.

Turelus · March 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

As I said in another thread just a moment ago if you're looking to be a serious end game progression player part of that is accepting your favourite class might spend time on the shelf during some patches.

You could also look for guilds which are not so focused on crazy and inflated numbers (or start your own), but if you're trying to be a true end game player who wants to push for things you need to accept sometimes some classes or builds are not up to par with what's best during that patch.

Now imagine how everyone who mains a Warden has felt since their release. I'm also not sure what you want ZOS (Gina) to do about this? It seems your issue is with how the community and a number of guilds handle things, unless you're asking for a Mag Sorc buff (in which case it's Wrobel you want to speak with).

Also I play a MagNB and get 20k DPS average, I lack the player skill for more.

Just so much lol. You're not wrong at all. You're right, but the whole idea is just absurd. This game doesn't make any sense sometimes.

It's the same with all MMO games where people are "serious" about it. Granted a normal good guild just getting on leaderboards won't really need to shelve good characters, but if you're doing that "cutting edge" play then it tends to happen.

I remember other MMO games where DPS were all X class because Y & Z just couldn't get the numbers for world firsts etc.

ESO we also have situations where some trials lend themselves to Magicka (ranged) or Stamina (melee) more so people are asked not to bring that kind of character to get the HM clear or such.

kylewwefan · March 2018

Forget anything about the original post/topic. Andy.S has got the best cleanest looking UI ever. Man I wish we could get that on console.

Idinuse · March 2018

Emma_Overload wrote: »

My guild only requires 25K to do trials, so I know there are mellow guilds out there. It is also possible to make a Sorc dps that doesn't depend on off-balance or dots at all. I made a direct damage build based on Torugs, Slimecraw and Netch (on backbar for AOE) that does 27K-30K reliably, even if the tank sucks and the boss runs all over the place.

What enchants do you rum with your Torug’s?

Apache_Kid · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

As I said in another thread just a moment ago if you're looking to be a serious end game progression player part of that is accepting your favourite class might spend time on the shelf during some patches.

You could also look for guilds which are not so focused on crazy and inflated numbers (or start your own), but if you're trying to be a true end game player who wants to push for things you need to accept sometimes some classes or builds are not up to par with what's best during that patch.

Now imagine how everyone who mains a Warden has felt since their release. I'm also not sure what you want ZOS (Gina) to do about this? It seems your issue is with how the community and a number of guilds handle things, unless you're asking for a Mag Sorc buff (in which case it's Wrobel you want to speak with).

Also I play a MagNB and get 20k DPS average, I lack the player skill for more.

Just so much lol. You're not wrong at all. You're right, but the whole idea is just absurd. This game doesn't make any sense sometimes.

It's the same with all MMO games where people are "serious" about it. Granted a normal good guild just getting on leaderboards won't really need to shelve good characters, but if you're doing that "cutting edge" play then it tends to happen.

I remember other MMO games where DPS were all X class because Y & Z just couldn't get the numbers for world firsts etc.

ESO we also have situations where some trials lend themselves to Magicka (ranged) or Stamina (melee) more so people are asked not to bring that kind of character to get the HM clear or such.

I'd argue that some of the most difficult content such as vAS +2 or vHoF would require the shelving of certain builds just to complete, let alone get to the top of the leaderboards. That's my issue.

Also I have big problems with trials and dungeons that are biased towards melee or ranged DPS but that is a seperate issue.

The metas in this game are changing way more quickly than any other MMO. Yeah ive played other MMOs where things changed and some classes became better and some became worse but not every 3-3 and half months like we have had for the last year+.

Azyle1 · March 2018

I know stamblades are probably in a much better spot than Sorc, but I can pull like 41-42K DPS with no TFS or Lover's Stone on a dummy and I still have 120 CP to go.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2018

If you want to run in a raid group that pushes trial scores, you are going to have high DPS requirements. Word to the wise, dont get tied to one character (big reason a lot of us are always screaming about account wide achievements). Do you think all the guys in MC mained mNBs before they no deathed VAS+2? Of course not. DPS at that level figure out what is best each patch and play it until it gets changed. Perfect balance is an illusion in an MMO. It's an impossible standard that we as a community attempt to force on the devs, but one or two classes will always emerge as meta, especially on something as objective as a DPS meter. Admittedly, sometimes balance is better than others.

This patch, for range, it is magic nightblade. Magic sorc is perfectly viable for the vast majority of content, even when going for a leaderboard spot, and you can certainly still hit 40k on a dummy with a sorc. I will even argue that in "average" hands, sorc is going to win most DPS races, but if both players are highly skilled, mageblade is always going to win. The same could have been said about magic sorc a year ago, and magic DK a year before that. We have even seen the templar DPS meta. Like it or not, it's the age of the nightblade. If you want to play stamina, you have more options available to you, but those spots are generally harder to secure in a raid. Even though stamina rotations are generally much easier, they require a much higher level of raid awareness to play effectively.

I see three possible solutions to your problem:

1. L2P, hate to start there, but the 35k requirement you speak of is perfectly doable on a magic Sorc in Dragon Bones.
2. Except your classes fate. Maybe sorc isnt the class you should be playing this patch. Admittedly, if you cant break 35k on a sorc, I doubt you will do it on mNB as its a significantly (we are talking night and day) harder rotation. This patch is the first time I can remember where my mNB DPS has pulled ahead of mSorc DPS on the dummy for me.
3. Adjust your expectations of the groups you want to run with. Plenty of raid groups dont demand 35k.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

But one can help others get as good as him so that everyone is gud together.

At the end you (ideally) get everybody as good as the best in their circle. But it's a "local maximum", that is, if the best is mediocre, everybody become as good as a mediocre player.
What's needed is to learn from tangibly better players, this rarely happens staying within a "circle", it requires to get out and meet new people.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Azyle1 wrote: »

I know stamblades are probably in a much better spot than Sorc, but I can pull like 41-42K DPS with no TFS or Lover's Stone on a dummy and I still have 120 CP to go.

Solo and self buffed? Care to share a video of you doing that?

Vahrokh · March 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

If you want to run in a raid group that pushes trial scores, you are going to have high DPS requirements. Word to the wise, dont get tied to one character (big reason a lot of us are always screaming about account wide achievements). Do you think all the guys in MC mained mNBs before they no deathed VAS+2? Of course not. DPS at that level figure out what is best each patch and play it until it gets changed. Perfect balance is an illusion in an MMO. It's an impossible standard that we as a community attempt to force on the devs, but one or two classes will always emerge as meta, especially on something as objective as a DPS meter. Admittedly, sometimes balance is better than others.

This patch, for range, it is magic nightblade. Magic sorc is perfectly viable for the vast majority of content, even when going for a leaderboard spot, and you can certainly still hit 40k on a dummy with a sorc. I will even argue that in "average" hands, sorc is going to win most DPS races, but if both players are highly skilled, mageblade is always going to win. The same could have been said about magic sorc a year ago, and magic DK a year before that. We have even seen the templar DPS meta. Like it or not, it's the age of the nightblade. If you want to play stamina, you have more options available to you, but those spots are generally harder to secure in a raid. Even though stamina rotations are generally much easier, they require a much higher level of raid awareness to play effectively.

I see three possible solutions to your problem:

1. L2P, hate to start there, but the 35k requirement you speak of is perfectly doable on a magic Sorc in Dragon Bones.
2. Except your classes fate. Maybe sorc isnt the class you should be playing this patch. Admittedly, if you cant break 35k on a sorc, I doubt you will do it on mNB as its a significantly (we are talking night and day) harder rotation. This patch is the first time I can remember where my mNB DPS has pulled ahead of mSorc DPS on the dummy for me.
3. Adjust your expectations of the groups you want to run with. Plenty of raid groups dont demand 35k.

Perfectly doable: sure. The discriminating factor is: how many in the overall playerbase skill (a Gaussian of all players skill) can do that, vs other classes? If it's 10% it's good. If it's 5%, it's a bit elitist game balance. If it's 1% the game is just tuned wrong. You know, not everybody is born an Alcast or Andy. Nor ESO selling point is hard core raiding. It's a MMO meant to be played "as you want", that is, not catering to the tiny elite.
It's not "just" class. I run a Dunmer sorc and she pulls less DPS than my Altmer sorc. When we get to the point everybody should just be a copy and paste of same class and even same race, this means the game is nuts. Of course in every game there's a "winning combo" that prevails, but that should be reserved to top end hardcore "purists". I am fine that there are guilds and players going for the extreme. But nowadays you get random "zone chat spam" guilds (usually not the top end, have you ever seen Hodor LFM new players on zone chat?) demanding 35k - close to the upper end for a magsorc - and where 1-2k racial difference just doom you to be rejected.
If by "plenty" you mean "go with basic vAA guilds" then you are totally right. But what happens when you feel like doing hm trials or even "just" vMOL? There's basically a very loud silence out there. You get classified as "want to do elite content" and thus you are pushed to go to an elite guild. Too bad, you just got pushed into lion's mouth doing so, because the first thing they'll want to check if you perform like one of them.

Destruent · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

But one can help others get as good as him so that everyone is gud together.

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

But one can help others get as good as him so that everyone is gud together.

At the end you (ideally) get everybody as good as the best in their circle. But it's a "local maximum", that is, if the best is mediocre, everybody become as good as a mediocre player.
What's needed is to learn from tangibly better players, this rarely happens staying within a "circle", it requires to get out and meet new people.

While it is not entirely wrong, it is also not the full truth: most important for high DPS is some sort of self-monitoring and testing. You need to find out what you do wrong and find a way for yourself how to do better.
Other players can get you to like 80%...90%. If you want to get higher, it's you...noone else.

Azyle1 · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I know stamblades are probably in a much better spot than Sorc, but I can pull like 41-42K DPS with no TFS or Lover's Stone on a dummy and I still have 120 CP to go.

Solo and self buffed? Care to share a video of you doing that?

Happy to. I'm at work now and I play on Xbox (FWIW) but when I am home I can do that for you. Although, I guess I should note that I DO wear a Kragh Monster Set, but that's just because it's my best set.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · March 2018

Sorcs have been bad even before DB patch, only reason people were taking them was for offbalance uptime and kiting (which can be done with any mage class). Thats the reason I went to mageblade. Went in vMSA and the damage difference was noticeable (not comparing to the top 10 scoreboard players that can play anything and get 600k+). And when I finished I even noticed I had no glyphs on my armor pieces yet. So yea, mageblade compared to non-pet sorc is so much better.

#SorcNeedsBuffs

Turelus · March 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

One cannot really "git gud" if playing with people who aren't better than him.

But one can help others get as good as him so that everyone is gud together.

At the end you (ideally) get everybody as good as the best in their circle. But it's a "local maximum", that is, if the best is mediocre, everybody become as good as a mediocre player.
What's needed is to learn from tangibly better players, this rarely happens staying within a "circle", it requires to get out and meet new people.

Right but there is also a point where better players need to stop and help try and bring other players with them. Otherwise you run into the exact thing you mentioned previously.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Or I've found guilds that just put a big "lock" and keep all but "special snowflakes" out.

Not to be rude but it seems like you want to be at the very top, running with people who are considered the best but don't wish to put in the time and commitment that they require to play with them, however you're unwilling to work with "lesser" players in bringing them to a place you're happy with.

There a loads of guilds in ESO and I am sure there will be some which match what you're looking for, a casual once a week raid but has high quality players hitting big numbers. The best you can do is create a new thread in the PC/Mac EU recruitment forums explaining what you're looking for, post some DPS parses etc. and see what offers you get.