Nightblade Grim Focus Changes (26.02.18)

Letho2469 · February 2018

As of today the spectral bow proc from merciless resolve (grim focus morph) has been reverted to the behavior it had before dragon bones. This 'fix' actually makes it worse. Here is the reason, you can test it on your training dummy (only if u have good ping and fps), because it punishes players who do light attack weaving flawlessly:

When weaving light attacks you can think of 'pairs': light attack - ability ; light attack - ability ; light attack - ability, etc.

The fifth light attack while merciless resolve is up will proc your bow, so you have to use the bow proc as soon as it is available. Thing is: After firing the fifth light attack, the game will take some milliseconds (no, I am not kidding) to register the proc and convert merciless resolve into the spectral bow ability. The time delay between [light attack>>>spectral bow proc usable] is higher than the time delay between [light attack>>>funnel health]. So if you weave perfectly you often end up recasting merciless resolve after the fifth light attack because the game takes too long to register the proc. This problem does not occur the way it worked after Dragon Bones has been released.

To clarify, I will post examples of DB release and now:
LA = Light attack
A = ability
'pairs in brackets'

DB release: (LA1>>A), (LA2>>A), (LA3>>A), (LA4>>A), (LA5>>A), (LA6>>bow proc) -- because the bow projectile travels much faster than LA6, LA6 will hit after it, registering as LA1 for the next 'cycle'
Now: (LA1>>A), (LA2>>A), (LA3>>A), (LA4>>A), (LA5>>bow proc)

So people who weave next to perfectly will have to delay their bow proc usage for some milliseconds to avoid that behavior.

There are two solutions: Revert today's 'fix' or make the game register the light attacks quicker (probably not possible).

I hope I could explain the matter sufficiently.

technohic · February 2018

Which platform? Before today’s pc patch; it waited for the LA to land. Today it’s supposed to stack when you start the LA.

technohic · February 2018

I just connected remote to my home PC on a break. Feels better now than it did yesterday to me. Albeit remote so my weave may not be on point but the stack seemed instant. Will try when I get home. I was just curious if with the date you were referring to today or from the crap it’s been since Dragon Bone

Raghul · February 2018

i agree with OP, today's fix made it worse, i am also missing/recasting bow proc often that my light attacks just don't seem to register alot of times, be it with lagg in trial idk,
been getting 15 fps in asylum with high end pc
i liked last weeks merciless resolve better

Illurian · February 2018

Really? I haven't logged on my magblade today, but I found the spectral bow proc horrendous last week. There was a faaaar greater time between your light attack and the conversion of the skill because it had to register the hit before it converted.

If the behavior has been reverted to how it was before, it's much better imo.

technohic · February 2018

Just did some testing and it seems the same to me as where it was only light attacks are registering as soon as fired. But a couple of issues

If you hit grim focus before its ready it does clear the stack count from showing on the icon but the next hit continues the stack where it left off. Obviously a DPS loss if you hit it too early like that though, and could be from issue 2.

LA weaves with strife have been clunky but now; it seems like the full LA animation may show but yet no light attack fire. IE I have a lightning staff and my arm reaches all the way out and pulls back, but no lightning comes out. Not sure if its lag but its not really the faster proc stack

kaithuzar · February 2018

Raghul wrote: »

i agree with OP, today's fix made it worse, i am also missing/recasting bow proc often that my light attacks just don't seem to register alot of times, be it with lagg in trial idk,
been getting 15 fps in asylum with high end pc
i liked last weeks merciless resolve better

If you're getting 15 fps, something tells me that's your problem...
It might be worse, idk b/c I haven't tested myself however, you guys need to either overclock, get new pc's or run in full screen mode or something b/c 15 fps is absolute trash.

ecru · February 2018

It's been like this since before the dragon bones patch. The proc will be lit up and the sound will go off, but if you hit it too quickly, you'll just recast merciless resolve instead of assassin's will. Extremely annoying and I'd really like this (along with other nb animation bugs) to be fixed sometime. It's really annoying missing light attacks because you hit LMB 10ms earlier than you did the last time and not ending up with a stack.

This is not a fps, input lag, or server lag issue. I still have the issue parsing while the game is running at 120fps on a very low imput lag 120hz ULMB display with an 80ms ping to the NA servers.

The recent change to Merciless Resolve keeping stacks when it expires was kind of a band-aid fix to this issue, but I'd like to see it fixed completely, along with other NB animation issues.

Morgul667 · February 2018

kaithuzar wrote: »

Raghul wrote: »

i agree with OP, today's fix made it worse, i am also missing/recasting bow proc often that my light attacks just don't seem to register alot of times, be it with lagg in trial idk,
been getting 15 fps in asylum with high end pc
i liked last weeks merciless resolve better

If you're getting 15 fps, something tells me that's your problem...
It might be worse, idk b/c I haven't tested myself however, you guys need to either overclock, get new pc's or run in full screen mode or something b/c 15 fps is absolute trash.

I have brand new computer and fps was fine before dragon bones patch

Now it has dropped down drastically.

LunaOM · February 2018

I don't have any problems with it. You've just got to wait that smallest amount of time before using it. Really, if you want to you can just do it how it was before this patch. Easy.

Letho2469 · February 2018

There was a faaaar greater time between your light attack and the conversion of the skill because it had to register the hit before it converted.

[...]

Maybe, but it didn't matter, as you didn't have to use your spectral bow proc instantly after your fifth LA had hit. You paired the converting LA with another ordinary ability and used the bow proc with your six LA.

Now it's just the way it was before DB patch, you have to use the bow proc paired with the LA that converts it on being fired.

You've just got to wait that smallest amount of time before using it. Really, if you want to you can just do it how it was before this patch.

That is contrary to how muscle memory works. Muscle memory actions are non-intentional actions, while 'waiting for that smallest amount of time' is an intentional action. It hence makes the playstyle unneccessarily harder as you have to think while performing it. DB grim focus felt MUCH smoother @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober .

Maulkin · February 2018

Letho2469 wrote: »

There was a faaaar greater time between your light attack and the conversion of the skill because it had to register the hit before it converted.

[...]

Maybe, but it didn't matter, as you didn't have to use your spectral bow proc instantly after your fifth LA had hit. You paired the converting LA with another ordinary ability and used the bow proc with your six LA.

Now it's just the way it was before DB patch, you have to use the bow proc paired with the LA that converts it on being fired.

You've just got to wait that smallest amount of time before using it. Really, if you want to you can just do it how it was before this patch.

That is contrary to how muscle memory works. Muscle memory actions are non-intentional actions, while 'waiting for that smallest amount of time' is an intentional action. It hence makes the playstyle unneccessarily harder as you have to think while performing it. DB grim focus felt MUCH smoother @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober .

But you still don't have to? You can use it on the 6th LA like you did before.

Letho2469 · February 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

There was a faaaar greater time between your light attack and the conversion of the skill because it had to register the hit before it converted.

[...]

Maybe, but it didn't matter, as you didn't have to use your spectral bow proc instantly after your fifth LA had hit. You paired the converting LA with another ordinary ability and used the bow proc with your six LA.

Now it's just the way it was before DB patch, you have to use the bow proc paired with the LA that converts it on being fired.

You've just got to wait that smallest amount of time before using it. Really, if you want to you can just do it how it was before this patch.

That is contrary to how muscle memory works. Muscle memory actions are non-intentional actions, while 'waiting for that smallest amount of time' is an intentional action. It hence makes the playstyle unneccessarily harder as you have to think while performing it. DB grim focus felt MUCH smoother @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober .

But you still don't have to? You can use it on the 6th LA like you did before.

That is a damage loss now!

You miss a full bow proc every 5th cycle, if u play that way, because the 6th LA is wasted and does not register as the first stack for the next cycle!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2018

This is how it's always been, minus the first few weeks of this patch. Having aggressively spent many NB hours on a dummy with both setups, I far prefer the old way and having to hold for just a fraction of a second on my bow proc. This is even more pronounced at range, as the stack delays with the "new" way really could throw your rotation out of whack. Now if we can get light attacks to be as reliable in a trial as they are on a dummy....

Letho2469 wrote: »

There was a faaaar greater time between your light attack and the conversion of the skill because it had to register the hit before it converted.

[...]

Maybe, but it didn't matter, as you didn't have to use your spectral bow proc instantly after your fifth LA had hit. You paired the converting LA with another ordinary ability and used the bow proc with your six LA.

Now it's just the way it was before DB patch, you have to use the bow proc paired with the LA that converts it on being fired.

You've just got to wait that smallest amount of time before using it. Really, if you want to you can just do it how it was before this patch.

That is contrary to how muscle memory works. Muscle memory actions are non-intentional actions, while 'waiting for that smallest amount of time' is an intentional action. It hence makes the playstyle unneccessarily harder as you have to think while performing it. DB grim focus felt MUCH smoother @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober .

Nobody plays NB as smooth as @LZH, and he has basically stated the exact opposite in the several posts he made documenting this issue. I agree with him. Merciless felt horribly clunky on release, the reversion was most welcome.

Maulkin · February 2018

Letho2469 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

There was a faaaar greater time between your light attack and the conversion of the skill because it had to register the hit before it converted.

[...]

Maybe, but it didn't matter, as you didn't have to use your spectral bow proc instantly after your fifth LA had hit. You paired the converting LA with another ordinary ability and used the bow proc with your six LA.

Now it's just the way it was before DB patch, you have to use the bow proc paired with the LA that converts it on being fired.

You've just got to wait that smallest amount of time before using it. Really, if you want to you can just do it how it was before this patch.

That is contrary to how muscle memory works. Muscle memory actions are non-intentional actions, while 'waiting for that smallest amount of time' is an intentional action. It hence makes the playstyle unneccessarily harder as you have to think while performing it. DB grim focus felt MUCH smoother @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober .

But you still don't have to? You can use it on the 6th LA like you did before.

That is a damage loss now! You miss a full bow proc every 5th cycle, if u play that way, because the 6th LA is wasted and does not register as the first stack for the next cycle!

What do you mean by now? That's how the skill always worked, with the exception of last 2 weeks where you actually had to wait till the 6th cycle. It was never instant on the 5th.

So you can wait for the 6th cycle or stagger your weave a bit. It was never problem for the last 2 years, how is it a problem now? If anything the skill is so improved in animation and response nowadays.

technohic · February 2018

So the OP is basically saying on the 6th la, followed by shooting the bow; the LA was registering after the proc was spent so it started a new stack. Pretty good use of a bad situation but I’ll take the quicker proc myself

Izaki · February 2018

Been this way forever and its just another example of why nightblade is the hardest class to master. This is all part of the intricacy and learning to weave with the Bow proc is a very important part of a magblade's or a stamblade's playstyle.

Letho2469 · February 2018

Been this way forever and its just another example of why nightblade is the hardest class to master.

There is absolutely no point in this. Just because sth. has always been a specific way does in no way mean it is the best way or should stay that way forever.

The primary point I see in most of the posts above is "I like the rotation to be hard" and that is a totally valid oppinion! (I just don't share it^^)

Nobody plays NB as smooth as @LZH, and he has basically stated the exact opposite in the several posts he made documenting this issue. I agree with him. Merciless felt horribly clunky on release, the reversion was most welcome.

Could you link some specific posts? I mean people are often thinking in 'rotations' that can not be kept up 100% in a (good) trial as mechanics keep you from performing it 100% (all other tank'n'spank encounters are not fun in my oppinion), which is why I'd take dummy rotations with a slight grain of salt. Nevertheless LZH is the best or one of the best NB players out there and I'd really love to know his points about this matter! What do u think felt clunky?

Raghul · February 2018

technohic wrote: »

Just did some testing and it seems the same to me as where it was only light attacks are registering as soon as fired. But a couple of issues

If you hit grim focus before its ready it does clear the stack count from showing on the icon but the next hit continues the stack where it left off. Obviously a DPS loss if you hit it too early like that though, and could be from issue 2.

LA weaves with strife have been clunky but now; it seems like the full LA animation may show but yet no light attack fire. IE I have a lightning staff and my arm reaches all the way out and pulls back, but no lightning comes out. Not sure if its lag but its not really the faster proc stack

yeah this is what i have been noticing to

ecru · February 2018

technohic wrote: »

LA weaves with strife have been clunky but now; it seems like the full LA animation may show but yet no light attack fire. IE I have a lightning staff and my arm reaches all the way out and pulls back, but no lightning comes out. Not sure if its lag but its not really the faster proc stack

it's not just strife, other nb abilities like twisting path also suffer from the light attack/weave issue. i think the animations in general are bugged in some way, or they're too long. it would be really great if this was fixed, because other classes' animations don't have the same issue.

f047ys3v3n · February 2018

I'll be honest. I'm not regretting just leaving merciless resolve on my back bar and refreshing it with twisting path once every 13 or so seconds. I know this whole multi-proc thing was supposed to be the end all be all for nb's but it just seems to have been a mess all around especially when paired with the required full heavy clunky timing. They should have just made it so the proc was also the recast an left it at that. This whole more attacks to charge but multi proc and then later stacks stay after recast but they don't in vMA because each wave clears combat..... A mess basically.

It is funny, all this started what, a year ago, when mNB's were low on dps and magica toons were otherwise high DD's. The game has come a long way since then with a resource mega nerf and update by update stam buffs and this is still an utter mess. I remember thinking gee, thanks ZOS for the minor DPS buff that requires me to totally rearrange my bars and complicates my rotation to the point of absurdity.

Well done on all this Wrobel, never did try running that NB did you?

GaunterODim · February 2018

Console peasant here.
Just wanted to add to the discussion, that the last patch added a grim focus stack counter which was very welcome with the change from 4 to 5 light attacks needed.

1 - This function has been erased with this patch and I cant understand why. I would rather have the stacks getting lost upon recast than losing that counter. That was the best recent feature in the game that could happen to console.

2 - I can confirm that time for the 5th light attack to count towards the stacks is notably higher. It feels like having to wait half a global cooldown to register.

I understand that nightblade is looking good this patch for pve, but I'd rather have the combat feel good and exact in exchange for doing pre patch dps. If the combat doesnt feel right, I dont enjoy it even though my nightblade always been my favourite char.
(Having trouble sorting the words in my mind right now so dont be harsh on grammar mistakes please.)

technohic · February 2018

GaunterODim wrote: »

Console peasant here.
Just wanted to add to the discussion, that the last patch added a grim focus stack counter which was very welcome with the change from 4 to 5 light attacks needed.

1 - This function has been erased with this patch and I cant understand why. I would rather have the stacks getting lost upon recast than losing that counter. That was the best recent feature in the game that could happen to console.

2 - I can confirm that time for the 5th light attack to count towards the stacks is notably higher. It feels like having to wait half a global cooldown to register.

I understand that nightblade is looking good this patch for pve, but I'd rather have the combat feel good and exact in exchange for doing pre patch dps. If the combat doesnt feel right, I dont enjoy it even though my nightblade always been my favourite char.
(Having trouble sorting the words in my mind right now so dont be harsh on grammar mistakes please.)

We still get the stack count on PC.

I think they released Dragon Bone to console without the fix PC got Monday where the stack is on instant light attack activation. Bunch of weird ability lag came with it.