Time to improve Templar ultimates

jrgray93 · February 2018

Templars have been in a bad spot for class ultimates for a while. They have niche uses but are a complete joke, particularly in PvP, in comparison to things like Death Stroke, Dragon Leap, and Negate. Wardens aren't much better off for offensive ults but at least stam wardens mix exceptionally well with Dawnbreaker. Trees are still an extremely potent heal. It's bad enough that our passives are generally bad, particularly lacking any sort of stamina sustain options. Don't even get me started on how much Battle Roar benefits DKs.

I'm sick of being forced into using Soul Assault in PvP and getting hate tells because I have no other viable option. Dawnbreaker of Smiting would be nice if it did magic damage and I already have another useful stun. Meteor is useless on a class with no block breaking mechanic. For PvP offense, Templars have ZERO effective options among their six potential class ultimates.

1) Radial Sweep

The biggest issue with radial sweep is the lack of range. For starters, simply change it from 6 to 8 meters. This is a minor improvement but would go a long way to landing the initial hit. Second, Templars lack mobility and this ultimate is wasted if you don't stay on your target. Templars in PvP are particularly susceptible to snares and roots because we have no inherent stamina sustain and our primary offensive spell is a melee-ranged frontal cone. Magicka templars suffer immensely against roots. With that said, I suggest adding to the ability and its morphs six seconds of snare immunity and minor expedition (+10% movement speed). Make this ten seconds for the Empowering Sweep morph. This change would make the ultimate far more reliable and versatile in PvP.

I'd also like to see this ultimate get the Burning Light treatment and allow it to deal magic OR physical damage, depending on which is higher. I sure miss magic damage crescent sweeps.

2) Nova

With recent changes to synergies, Nova is back in a decent position for PvE. The biggest problem for it is that it is useless in PvP, save for dropping on flags in keeps. Even there, other options are usually better. I think Solar Prison is in a good spot. Maaaaaybe bump up the damage slightly. 5-10% or so. This ult in general is trickier to figure out what to do with so take this with a grain of salt.

I think Solar Disturbance is a good place to improve ult diversity for PvP. My suggestion is to make it an enemy-targeted ability. Drop the Nova on the target and have it remain above their head as they move. Make the animation smaller and less distracting for this morph. Lower the damage by 25% or so to account for the fact that you can't get out of it. Remove the snare and synergy stun from this morph. I think this would open up more options and introduce a unique counter-play for the morph. It would be up to the target to not stack on allies, potentially helping break up zergs. This morph could also be cleansed.

3) Rite of Passage

I rarely find myself using this ability but I think it is in a decent place. It's potent in PvP and effective in certain PvE situations. It provides a good healing option for stamplars. I honestly don't know that I'd change much here. The only real issue in PvP is that using it can keep you from moving away from danger. The heal is nice but you're a sitting duck while enemies close in. Once that heal stops, you're toast if a few people are hacking away at you. Maybe make the base duration 6 seconds and change the Practiced Incantation morph from a channel to an instant cast over-time ability. Remove the CC immunity from this morph so it has valid counter-play, and maybe even reduce the range. This would make it a potentially mobile emergency heal. Keep Remembrance as it is, aside from the base duration increase to six seconds.

Milvan · February 2018

Completely disagree.

Rite of Passage is kind useless because offense is the best defense (I'm looking at you warhorn). Tho nova and Radial Sweep have a lot of utility and good damage already and are largely used.

jrgray93 · February 2018

Milvan wrote: »

Completely disagree.

Rite of Passage is kind useless because offense is the best defense (I'm looking at you warhorn). Tho nova and Radial Sweep have a lot of utility and good damage already and are largely used.

Maybe in PvE. This thread is primarily about PvP. The proposed changes to both ultimates would have little affect on PvE viability.

War Machine and Automated Defense in particular work very well with Radial and its morphs, due to the low cost. In PvP, however, Templar class ultimates are hardly useful for offense.

Reedx · February 2018

Only read 50% of the post but yeah i agree, for my main is a healer/PvE tamplar, made a new char because in my eyes templars sucks in PvP, so changes like this would be nice

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Disagree on solar disturbance. I use it on my templar healer for the snare and major protection in pve. I'd rather see the other morph changed since the increase to synergy damage is mediocre at best.

idk · February 2018

For the most part what OP stated could be started for all hire. Templar’s aren’t in a different place.

It’s why we see so many comets, destro ults and fighters guild.

jrgray93 · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Disagree on solar disturbance. I use it on my templar healer for the snare and major protection in pve. I'd rather see the other morph changed since the increase to synergy damage is mediocre at best.

That's how I feel about a snare. I'm not sure why you'd ever want a 30% snare in PvE, especially when compared to extra damage.

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

I think power of the light is fine and doesnt need anymore buffs, tho nova needs some serious help (same as standart, why zos hates ground ults so much?)

And I also disagree on templars having bad worst mobility. Yes they lack speed buffs, but a stamplar can easily combine the cleanse and shuffle , wear a back bar set like cowards,pick orc and as a result be very mobile, while not giving up on damage.

So this puts them into second worst when it comes to mobility. Tho I wouldn't call beating DKs on mobility a success so you might aswell ignore me on this.

Mureel · February 2018

What I find annoying is that both dawnbreaker are Stam. You need to be in melee range to use them sure, buttttttt, when someone gets in your face pvp would be nice to have! Give it!

Mureel · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Disagree on solar disturbance. I use it on my templar healer for the snare and major protection in pve. I'd rather see the other morph changed since the increase to synergy damage is mediocre at best.

But it's really a niche thing.

In vet dungeons/trials Warhorn ftw (and sometimes barrier, esp if you as healer need to Rez and shield your team a moment whilst you do).

Lynx7386 · February 2018

idk wrote: »

For the most part what OP stated could be started for all hire. Templar’s aren’t in a different place.

It’s why we see so many comets, destro ults and fighters guild.

The reason you see so many mages / fighters guild ultimate is because of the passives. Each mages guild ability you slot is 2% more magicka and magicka recovery. Each fighters guild ability you slot is 3% more weapon damage. Flawless dawnbreaker is another 5% weapon damage while slotted.

These abilities are popular because of the stat boost they offer to all of your other abilities, not necessarily because they're good on their own.

Danksta · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Disagree on solar disturbance. I use it on my templar healer for the snare and major protection in pve. I'd rather see the other morph changed since the increase to synergy damage is mediocre at best.

Nova gives Major Maim, not Major Protection.

DeadlyRecluse · February 2018

1. Radial sweep changes you suggest are, imo, great. While tying mobility to an ultimate isn't great, it's better than nothing and might be strong enough to finally drop mistform. I'd try it, at least.
2. Nova...I'm actually good with nova as-is. I'd just like the PBAoE ults (mainly destro) to be brought down a bit so that there is more of an advantage in playing zone control and choke fighting with class ults rather than just paintraining with destros. Having it be an enemy-placed AOE would be odd--could it be purged?
3. I like your Rite of Passage changes. Might need tweaking, but overall they're good. Rite of Passage is such a strong ability (in PvP), but so often we have to retreat away from the templar who is channeling, leaving them to be squished by the zerg as soon as they are out of channel. A mobile morph with reduced numbers and no CC immunity would be fun to play with--a less buff-filled, more heal-oriented version of resto ult.

Dyride · February 2018

Nova definitely needs a little love for PVP. Make the Maim last for two secs after leaving the radius even if the ground effect was removed would give this some better use. This would make it a good counter to drop into charging ball groups.

Giving Crescent Sweep more range should happen but a slight decrease in the mitigation may be required since it would be easier to land.

Valkysas154 · February 2018

Rite of Passage just sucks better to spam BOL or even any other healing skill we normally use and a completely wast of a ult spot

DU5T__ST0RM · February 2018

I think crescent sweep should do a radial knockback. Similar to draining shot. Other than the added dmg the only reason I use dawn breaker over sweep is because of the stun.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Danksta wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Disagree on solar disturbance. I use it on my templar healer for the snare and major protection in pve. I'd rather see the other morph changed since the increase to synergy damage is mediocre at best.

Nova gives Major Maim, not Major Protection.

Right, effectively the same thing.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

As a compromise, what if solar prison centered the nova on yourself and moved with you, like eye of the storm does for the destro ult?

Solariken · February 2018

I love the idea of adding snare/root immunity and Minor Expedition to Sweep, but only to the Empowering Sweep morph (could even nerf the dmg redux portion to a flat 15%. Crescent hits like a truck, nothing else it needs.

All I would want for Nova is an AOE root on impact and a slight cost reduction.

Full mobility with Rite of Passage is long over-due (at least one morph).

BohnT · February 2018

DU5T__ST0RM wrote: »

I think crescent sweep should do a radial knockback. Similar to draining shot. Other than the added dmg the only reason I use dawn breaker over sweep is because of the stun.

Why would you want to push enemies away?
The only class stun templars have is so stupid designed that it pushes your enemies out of the range of your main damage ability, for a class with bad mobility, a cc that generates a gap is a curse as you lose precious time when running to them

Minno · February 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think power of the light is fine and doesnt need anymore buffs, tho nova needs some serious help (same as standart, why zos hates ground ults so much?)

And I also disagree on templars having bad worst mobility. Yes they lack speed buffs, but a stamplar can easily combine the cleanse and shuffle , wear a back bar set like cowards,pick orc and as a result be very mobile, while not giving up on damage.

So this puts them into second worst when it comes to mobility. Tho I wouldn't call beating DKs on mobility a success so you might aswell ignore me on this.

Magplar has neither snare removal nor speed buffs whereas stamplar has access to both without impacting their build loadouts. Flipside magplar has a mag gap closer. But they need major speed/snare removal buffs outside of potions/vampire to open up their kit to play builds other than healbots.

Back to OP:
- Cresant sweep/empowering sweeps I agree on the dmg being the highest of your stat. Arguably you could just use creasant sweep on a magplar, but even with 66% more dmg on the initial hit, you lose out on the mag dmg scaling on the DOT ticks (which is more important due to procing burning light to offset dmg loss). But I doubt they can do this, so both morphs should return to be Mag damage that scales off your max stats (stamplars can still use these ultimates and with higher WD values arguably can see better dmg numbers through burning light than magplars trying to make sense of the physical damage.)
- nova. Cost should match meteor cost and be a PBAOE. Scale the dmg to counter this, but overall this will support the intent of PVP being a fast-paced environment. If we want, make this give snare imunity too if the dmg will be reduced significantly.
- Rememberance. Just change it so it's instant cast like Life Giver. Otherwise it's a strong heal and the Major Protection has more of an uptime most templars don't realize.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

For the most part what OP stated could be started for all hire. Templar’s aren’t in a different place.

It’s why we see so many comets, destro ults and fighters guild.

The reason you see so many mages / fighters guild ultimate is because of the passives. Each mages guild ability you slot is 2% more magicka and magicka recovery. Each fighters guild ability you slot is 3% more weapon damage. Flawless dawnbreaker is another 5% weapon damage while slotted.

These abilities are popular because of the stat boost they offer to all of your other abilities, not necessarily because they're good on their own.

These are reasons to like these skills more than the class ultis they aren't the only reason. Meteor tracks with moving targets and Nova does not. Crescent sweep has a tiny range and laughable defense effect better obtained from item sets. The Damage on Dawnbreaker is also better than sweep and sticks to the target as opposed Sweeps which sticks to the tiny aoe on caster. If this ulti hit more like Magma armor it might see more interest. The Trees are a much better heal because you fire and forget. Remembrance locks you in position and really only delays the inevitable. This is why Templars do not like their ultimates.

The Templar ultimates might not be such a point of contention if the skills weren't so annoying to use either. Face it: Templar is a Jalopy. Go play a Sorcerer or a Dragon Knight or a Nightblade or something more streamlined and entertaining.

Minno · February 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

For the most part what OP stated could be started for all hire. Templar’s aren’t in a different place.

It’s why we see so many comets, destro ults and fighters guild.

The reason you see so many mages / fighters guild ultimate is because of the passives. Each mages guild ability you slot is 2% more magicka and magicka recovery. Each fighters guild ability you slot is 3% more weapon damage. Flawless dawnbreaker is another 5% weapon damage while slotted.

These abilities are popular because of the stat boost they offer to all of your other abilities, not necessarily because they're good on their own.

These are reasons to like these skills more than the class ultis they aren't the only reason. Meteor tracks with moving targets and Nova does not. Crescent sweep has a tiny range and laughable defense effect better obtained from item sets. The Damage on Dawnbreaker is also better than sweep and sticks to the target as opposed Sweeps which sticks to the tiny aoe on caster. If this ulti hit more like Magma armor it might see more interest. The Trees are a much better heal because you fire and forget. Remembrance locks you in position and really only delays the inevitable. This is why Templars do not like their ultimates.

The Templar ultimates might not be such a point of contention if the skills weren't so annoying to use either. Face it: Templar is a Jalopy. Go play a Sorcerer or a Dragon Knight or a Nightblade or something more streamlined and entertaining.

it sucks because our abilities are locked behind cast time/channels but arguably do not have the damage/defenses to compensate for being stuck in them. Instant cast abilities, while dodgable/blockable, have the freedom to allow you to switch to defense and back again when you need them to. Trying to watch your health while in a sweeps channel is not fun. The class was made for miss chance in mind; more so than DK/NB/old stamina classes.

Neoauspex · February 2018

Resto Ultimate easily outperforms Rite of Passage. I wouldn't slot Nova if it cost half what it does (in PvP), just like nobody chooses the stationary version of the destro ult (in PvP). Radial Sweep is good if you don't have any other Aedric Spear abilities for the crit passive, otherwise there are better ultimates available for nearly any situation.

Luckylancer · February 2018

"Refund 50ult if missed" this for sweep would make life easier.

Note: aoe dot waves wont activate for balance issues

Velvelya · February 2018

What PVP Templar needs is a decent freaking root ability.

Cheveyo · February 2018

jrgray93 wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Completely disagree.

Rite of Passage is kind useless because offense is the best defense (I'm looking at you warhorn). Tho nova and Radial Sweep have a lot of utility and good damage already and are largely used.

Maybe in PvE. This thread is primarily about PvP. The proposed changes to both ultimates would have little affect on PvE viability.

War Machine and Automated Defense in particular work very well with Radial and its morphs, due to the low cost. In PvP, however, Templar class ultimates are hardly useful for offense.

Oh, so they can make changes to spells that ONLY affect PvP and have zero effect on PvE?

jrgray93 · February 2018

Cheveyo wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Completely disagree.

Rite of Passage is kind useless because offense is the best defense (I'm looking at you warhorn). Tho nova and Radial Sweep have a lot of utility and good damage already and are largely used.

Maybe in PvE. This thread is primarily about PvP. The proposed changes to both ultimates would have little affect on PvE viability.

War Machine and Automated Defense in particular work very well with Radial and its morphs, due to the low cost. In PvP, however, Templar class ultimates are hardly useful for offense.

Oh, so they can make changes to spells that ONLY affect PvP and have zero effect on PvE?

That is a different discussion entirely, but read the proposed suggestions I made in my post. Adding snare immunity and minor expedition would have little or no impact on PvE because mobs generally don't try to get away from you. Clamping the Nova to a target would have little or no impact on PvE. I'm not talking about balancing them differently, but some changes obviously impact different aspects of the game in different ways.

idk · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

For the most part what OP stated could be started for all hire. Templar’s aren’t in a different place.

It’s why we see so many comets, destro ults and fighters guild.

The reason you see so many mages / fighters guild ultimate is because of the passives. Each mages guild ability you slot is 2% more magicka and magicka recovery. Each fighters guild ability you slot is 3% more weapon damage. Flawless dawnbreaker is another 5% weapon damage while slotted.

These abilities are popular because of the stat boost they offer to all of your other abilities, not necessarily because they're good on their own.

I the passives are obvious, but oth are actively used used. If they are using them it is not just because of the passives. There are benefits to actually using shooting star in situations.

Nemesis7884 · February 2018

would be kinda nice if one of the solar ultis was physical damage based

TheDoomsdayMonster · February 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think power of the light is fine and doesnt need anymore buffs, tho nova needs some serious help (same as standart, why zos hates ground ults so much?)

And I also disagree on templars having bad worst mobility. Yes they lack speed buffs, but a stamplar can easily combine the cleanse and shuffle , wear a back bar set like cowards,pick orc and as a result be very mobile, while not giving up on damage.

So this puts them into second worst when it comes to mobility. Tho I wouldn't call beating DKs on mobility a success so you might aswell ignore me on this.

The OP is talking about a Magplar...

Us Magplars have no mobility without either going Vamp or wearing an oddball set like Cowards, Prisoners Rags, or Skooma Smuggler...

Heck I'd rate Magplars last as pertains to mobility (assuming no Vamp of course) as DK's can slot Empowering Chains and get Major Expedition from that...