It already is optional. If you don't want to tank with it, don't put points in tri focus.

And for the love of God stop beating this dead horse.

If by optional you mean "work well" then I'm all for it. Right now, it's best as a back-bar.

Alternately they could introduce a frost one-hander for magicka DPS ... I'd be happy to let tanks have the staff, if my mag warden could dual wield a new mag weapon that leveraged her frost passives. ;-)

I don't disagree that the change could have been done better, but you and others also need to understand that what zos did was just as much a business decision as a game play one.

Look at it from their point of view:

-frost staves are almost never used and offer nothing over fire or lightning, both of which in most genres are far more popular with players than ice.
-there is no magicka tanking option, but there is a high demand for it.

Those two considerations in hand, zos could have made a while new weapon line for magic tanking, but frost staves would still suck and still be under utilized as a dps weapon. Fact of the matter is that when it comes to damage, you've got single target and you've got multi target, and that's it. You cannot make ice staves competitive with either one without making the fire or lightning staves obsolete (which would *** off even more people)" and you can't make them halfway weapons without them still being useless (because players will ALWAYS min-max. If it isn't the best it might as well not even exist, in most players mindset).

Also creating an entire new weapon line for magic tanking would be a relatively large investment, requiring a hell of a lot more time and money on zos' part than simply changing some existing passives and abilities.

They did the smart thing by taking a useless weapon and using it to appease players who wanted a magic tank option. They created a market and did it at nearly no cost to the company, pure profit. You can bet your arse it was the ceo's driving that decision.

So what were left with isn't perfect for tanking, no, but its better than nothing. Dps players really didn't lose anything with the change because they were already all using fire and lightning instead.

It's already optional, and the option that's chosen is no. By basically everyone in the playerbase.

It was at best an interesting concept, but it's execution was abysmal.

They need to either commit to it SERIOUSLY (as some others here have already suggested) or preferably, just scrap it all-together and make it a viable DPS weapon, or at least viable for utility.
Right now it's completely out shined for damage by the other two elements as they receive direct buffs to their damage through the passives, and even more buffs from their secondary elemental effects, while frost gets nothing in either category.
They're not much better at utility either, since all they really offer is a slow which is easily achievable with just about anything else, as almost everything in the game has a snare attached to it (a different problem altogether >_>) and a very high-cost root which is also accessible to most classes through class skills.

Much like Hybrid builds, there's not really anything Frost Staff tanking can do that traditional meta-tanks with S+B can't already do, more easily and more reliably.

It's a lot like taking a car and investing loads of time and money into modifying the car so the wheels are on the 'top' of the car and it can drive upside-down.
Sure, it might be an impressive achievement. People might find it new and interesting and fun.
But you have to ask yourself... the car worked perfectly already, why put so much effort into making it do what it already did, just not as well, and now with more difficulty.
There's a proverb about "reinventing the wheel" for a reason.

LinearParadox wrote: »

It's already optional, and the option that's chosen is no. By basically everyone in the playerbase.

It was at best an interesting concept, but it's execution was abysmal.

They need to either commit to it SERIOUSLY (as some others here have already suggested) or preferably, just scrap it all-together and make it a viable DPS weapon, or at least viable for utility.
Right now it's completely out shined for damage by the other two elements as they receive direct buffs to their damage through the passives, and even more buffs from their secondary elemental effects, while frost gets nothing in either category.
They're not much better at utility either, since all they really offer is a slow which is easily achievable with just about anything else, as almost everything in the game has a snare attached to it (a different problem altogether >_>) and a very high-cost root which is also accessible to most classes through class skills.

Much like Hybrid builds, there's not really anything Frost Staff tanking can do that traditional meta-tanks with S+B can't already do, more easily and more reliably.

It's a lot like taking a car and investing loads of time and money into modifying the car so the wheels are on the 'top' of the car and it can drive upside-down.
Sure, it might be an impressive achievement. People might find it new and interesting and fun.
But you have to ask yourself... the car worked perfectly already, why put so much effort into making it do what it already did, just not as well, and now with more difficulty.
There's a proverb about "reinventing the wheel" for a reason.

Dps have 5 weapon choices in this game. Healers have one, tanks had one and now have two. And you want to remove that and make it another generic dps weapon just for flavor.

You also discount all of the utility frost staff offers just to try and push your agenda here: its not just a slow. Chillled also applies maim, reducing enemy damage dealt. Blockade is a root as well as an aoe chill. Heavy attacks give a damage shield. There is also a HELL of a lot of utility in being able to utilize magicka for blocking.

But no, go ahead, keep pushing your personal opinion on the rest of the forum like it's fact.

Will it make it less clunky?

I'd LOVE to see a meta-breaking Heavy Armor MagWarden in PvP, taking advantage of their class passives to frost, being a tanky battlemage without having to use shields, working as group utility with snares and roots and area denial and see something FRESH in PvP not just yet another shield-stacking Mag-DPS spamming birds at people -.-

That's kinda what I run anyways: 5x knightslayer, 5x vanguard's challenge or fortified brass or shacklebreaker or arena (personal preference), and 2x tremorscale with a frost staff. Frost staff heavy attack procs tremorscale and knight slayer at the same time, causing a snare, three sources of burst, and giving you a shield at the same time. If you run vanguard's challenge in a coordinated group, you can do this to reduce the enemy's damage to your allies while they pummel him, as long as you're careful to stay out of the damage yourself. The setup would actually work better on a DK with molten armaments for the extra 40% heavy attack bonus.
Removing the taunt on heavy attack would actually make that setup worse for pvp. If anything I'd like to see 1h/shield also taunt on heavy attacks, allowing characters that have their own source of major fracture/breach and dont need to permablock all the time a way to free up a skill slot.

I dont think there's really anything else they can do to frost staff to suit your pvp needs without making it too powerful, and consequently getting it nerfed by the pvp crowd, which would probably make it even worse in pve as well.

In PvE, I agree that the frost staff needs a buff if it's going to be a main tanking weapon, however right now it serves very well as a backbar weapon for tanks. Most tanks are already slotting a destruction staff backbar to help keep crusher enchant uptime as high as possible because of the interaction between elemental blockade and mainhand enchants. Most tanks have been using a lightning staff backbar, solely for the concussed/offbalance effect to boost group damage, and that gives them far less utility and defense than a frost staff does currently, for a minimal damage increase (nearly negligible after dragonbones' nerfs to offbalance). If those same tanks were running a frost staff, they'd be losing less armor on the back bar, be gaining a free ranged taunt in the few situations where it's needed or usable, and they'd be able to block with their magicka pool thus alleviating some of the block cost nerfs.

The one major change that I think needs to happen right now is for all two handed weapons (not just frost staves, but all staffs, 2h melee, and bows) to count for two set items. The inequality between 5-5-1 and 5-5-2 setups is extreme, and it's been a problem for a long time. Monster sets are getting more and more powerful with each new dlc, making that gap between using a 2pc set and not using one even greater. There's no other way for 2h weapon setups to make up the difference either.


I think part of the problem you're seeing with frost staff is that you're only considering it for the current meta, where it should be a seperate style of playing all it's own. Yes, 1h/shield has a taunt that gives major fracture and breach, and frost staff doesnt have that equivalent - but for classes that have their own source of fracture/breach (namely wardens and nightblades), that effect is no longer necessary. The heavy attack taunt is not meant to be a primary taunting method either, the developers at ZOS said it themselves: The heavy attack taunt is for lower level players to have a method of tanking with the frost staff before gaining access to inner fire from the undaunted line. They fully intended for the heavy attack taunt to be a side-effect and not a main form of taunting, because it would be replaced with inner fire at higher levels where the instant taunt matters.

It's also quite clear that they were building the frost staff's tanking abilities around the warden, as it was in-development at around the same time that the frost staff changes happened. If you think about the frost staff's abilities along those lines, it makes a lot more sense being where it is currently: Wardens have their own major breach/fracture with sub assault, they have their own root equivalent to talons with gripping shards, they have boosts to frost damage but no real damage abilities in their skill trees which tells me the devs intended for wardens to be using frost staves at lower levels even when soloing. Wardens also came with a spell shield so they dont need defensive posture, and the chill effect applying minor maim is obviously meant to make up for the lack of that skill through heroic slash or choking talons on warden tanks. Elemental blockade may have a low chance to proc it by itself, but when you combine that with frost damage from gripping shards, arctic blast, and northern storm you have a relatively high chance per second to proc aoe maim via chilled (especially since warden passives give 200% extra chance to apply status effects and you can combine that with a charged weapon).

You have to work around what's in the game, instead of thinking every individual thing can stand on it's own.