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Make Xv1 finally harder
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Mazbt✭✭✭✭Small group play is viable and can be fun but gonna know your limits and maybe NOT push into that organized group that have more heals and negates than you...especially if no one is paying the small man any mind and instead focusing on the massive zerg behind them.Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
- many others
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Fantasia0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.
The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.
An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.
The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.
Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.
So Purge doesn't count as counterplay for poisons?
As for the skills, whenever I'm the focus of a bunch of enemy players, I don't get worked,over the specific skill that killed me. Sooner or later, they were going to kill me with something or more likely, some combo of something. If "can be used more effectively in larger groups against smaller groups" is the standard for nerfs I'm not seeing a lot that shouldn't be nerfed.
No mate, a ridiculously costly magicka skill is not considered counterplay for poisons. Especially when literally 1 second after ur purge, u can be affected with a poison again.
You keep missing the point. Its not about the skill killing you. Its about the gameplay that skills like that promote. Just because you were most likely going to die in an outnumbered fight it doesnt mean that its ok to be abused by all sorts of dumb mechanics.
Maybe you dont see it that way because being in an outnumbered fight is most likely an unfortunate outcome of a different type of fight (large scale for example) that you like doing and not a type of fight that you willingly put urself in because you like it so you didnt expect much anw and u dont actually care about what actually happens. But you have to understand that there are people that willingly want to challenge themselves by fighting outnumbered and trying to outplay their opponents because this is how they like playing. If you die to some sort of combo then you most likely got outplayed. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that and thats not what the OP is talking about. Whats wrong is when dumb mechanics start adding up effectively removing skill and fun from the fight.
And this doesnt affect just that solo player. It affects the game in general. Because its forcing the zerg mentality on people including solo players and you end up with a zerg festival which also leads to performance issues.2 -
Surak73✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.
The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.
An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.
The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.
Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.
So Purge doesn't count as counterplay for poisons?
As for the skills, whenever I'm the focus of a bunch of enemy players, I don't get worked,over the specific skill that killed me. Sooner or later, they were going to kill me with something or more likely, some combo of something. If "can be used more effectively in larger groups against smaller groups" is the standard for nerfs I'm not seeing a lot that shouldn't be nerfed.techprince wrote: »Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.
With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.
1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1
-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.
2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else
-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.
3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.
-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge
4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg
- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds
These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing
You are implying everyone runs poisons which isnt the case. However, cost poisons should be removed from the game.
Curse stacking was already present, backlash stacking was added in this patch. Both specifically counter 1 vs X and it should and it will stay the same. This is small/large scale PvP and balance is done accordingly. If you want 1 vs 1, go duel outside.
Earthgore was nerfed but its healing is still high which will need another nerf.
That being said, your disguise for "make 1 vs X easier" has been blown.
I didn't knew it was hard for some people to understand basic sententinal logic.
For the record Yeah i want 1vX / Small scale to be easier by balancing over performing things
Have you even heard about "circularity"?... You say you want 1vX to be easier by balancing overperforming things, but then you put in the "overperforming things" class - surprise!... - exactly those things which make 1vX a bit more demanding...
So, instead of having "Let's make 1vX more easy!!!", we have "Let's nerf overperfoming skills!!!", which actually sounds more nice. But then we ask "And which are these overperfoming skills?", and the reply is "Those which make 1vX more difficult, of course!!!". And so, here we are...
P.S.: I play in Cyrodiil solo for 70% of the time, and in two in the remaining 30%. So I developed a natural instinct for what I can do and what I can not, and I simply tend to avoid the no-way-of-exit situations.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭no. 1vX is a proof that balance sucks. If you fight against people that use poisons and good abilities (meaning they're not new pve players that spam light attacks) then you should not go over 1v3.
But 1vX only exists in the form of 1 good player killing bad players. 1 good player will NOT kill multiple good players. Not even in a 1v3. 1 good player will never kill 3 good players. Seems like most people have no clue about what 1vX even is and then they try to talk about balance.2 -
techprince✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.
The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.
An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.
The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.
Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.
So Purge doesn't count as counterplay for poisons?
As for the skills, whenever I'm the focus of a bunch of enemy players, I don't get worked,over the specific skill that killed me. Sooner or later, they were going to kill me with something or more likely, some combo of something. If "can be used more effectively in larger groups against smaller groups" is the standard for nerfs I'm not seeing a lot that shouldn't be nerfed.techprince wrote: »Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.
With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.
1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1
-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.
2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else
-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.
3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.
-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge
4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg
- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds
These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing
You are implying everyone runs poisons which isnt the case. However, cost poisons should be removed from the game.
Curse stacking was already present, backlash stacking was added in this patch. Both specifically counter 1 vs X and it should and it will stay the same. This is small/large scale PvP and balance is done accordingly. If you want 1 vs 1, go duel outside.
Earthgore was nerfed but its healing is still high which will need another nerf.
That being said, your disguise for "make 1 vs X easier" has been blown.
I didn't knew it was hard for some people to understand basic sententinal logic.
For the record Yeah i want 1vX / Small scale to be easier by balancing over performing things
Keep your sententinal logic to yourself, we don't need it. Curse and backlash aren't overperforming. Something needs to go through perma blockers and perma roll dodgers.Edited by techprince on February 15, 2018 6:51PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.
The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.
An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.
The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.
Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.
So Purge doesn't count as counterplay for poisons?
As for the skills, whenever I'm the focus of a bunch of enemy players, I don't get worked,over the specific skill that killed me. Sooner or later, they were going to kill me with something or more likely, some combo of something. If "can be used more effectively in larger groups against smaller groups" is the standard for nerfs I'm not seeing a lot that shouldn't be nerfed.techprince wrote: »Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.
With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.
1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1
-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.
2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else
-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.
3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.
-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge
4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg
- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds
These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing
You are implying everyone runs poisons which isnt the case. However, cost poisons should be removed from the game.
Curse stacking was already present, backlash stacking was added in this patch. Both specifically counter 1 vs X and it should and it will stay the same. This is small/large scale PvP and balance is done accordingly. If you want 1 vs 1, go duel outside.
Earthgore was nerfed but its healing is still high which will need another nerf.
That being said, your disguise for "make 1 vs X easier" has been blown.
I didn't knew it was hard for some people to understand basic sententinal logic.
For the record Yeah i want 1vX / Small scale to be easier by balancing over performing things
My problem is that this post looks exactly like every other "Nerf the things in PVP that I have a problem with because they must be OP because I have a problem with them" post out there.
Its not that I don't understand your logic. Its that you haven't convinced me that your conclusions are any more valid than anyone else asking for PVP nerfs. I've been around the forums long enough to see enough variations on this theme.2 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with most of these ideas.
Poison-stacking is absolutely ridiculous. As if it’s not already difficult to take down multiple opponents alone, they can place multiple poisons on you and almost have 100% uptime on Increase Cost poisons why in combat. Poisons themselves (imo) were bad for PvP in general. At the very least there should be a max of one poison applied to you at a time.
Earthgore is a set that essentially saves the life of someone who would’ve otherwise died, and grants them an enormous HoT (which heals their nearby allies too) you can rarely kill them through. I like the concept of Earthgore but it’s still too powerful in PvP. ZOS acknowledged this at one point and “nerfed” it but they failed to realize that even after nerf you have large groups with everyone wearing this set exactly like they did pre-nerf. Nothing changed. It’s still too strong.
Curse Stacking I don’t think is an issue. Those are separate Active Skill casts by separate players. I think they should remove Haunting Curse and replace it with the old Velocious Curse though.... it was a bad change to begin with for PvP. If they want the morph to be better for a non-pet Sorc in PvE there are other ways to easily do it.
I totally agree on PotL/Purifying Light too. Would be great if only the caster’s Damage was counted when in PvP. This would maybe help towards incentivizing large groups to not run so many healbot tanks. It shouldn’t be changed for PvE though (nice to have tanks/healers with this).
Now for the real question - Will ZOS actually care for any of this? Nope. So were wasting our time. Nothing will change at all.... at least for 3-6 more months
Edited by Vaoh on February 15, 2018 7:45PM1 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.
With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.
1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1
-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.
2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else
-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.
3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.
-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge
4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg
- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds
These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing
The curse idea is horrible. If you had 3-4 frags or 3-4 WB you would be dead just 3 sec earlier. If anything its easier to deal with as you have 3 sec to counter.Edited by bardx86 on February 15, 2018 7:52PM0
