Make Xv1 finally harder

fatmanatcomp · February 2018

cooldown on wisp or double cost spam on it

VaranisArano · February 2018

technohic wrote: »

Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.

The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.

An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.

Joy_Division · February 2018

Sigh.

Another thread asking for nerfs to solve problems in PvP.

Tan9oSuccka · February 2018

Eh. I have zero sympathy for the yolo 1 v X crowd.

I’m going to continue chaining you rock dancers off your perch.

casparian · February 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sigh.

Another thread asking for nerfs to solve problems in PvP.

But even you agree that some nerfs need to happen to solve problems in PVP. BohnT is calling for nerfs to poisons and Earthgore that would disproportionately impact large groups fighting smaller groups.

I don't agree with the proposal of nerfs to class-defining skills like Backlash and Curse. But some nerfs to certain aspects of PVP would improve the health of Cyrodiil.

Mayrael · February 2018

If we take in consideration players at more or less the same skill level 1vX should be imposible. Its about balance. If there are builds that allow one person to kill multiple equally skilled players something is wrong. I know Ill be flamed because as we all know "1.6 was the best". Yes in many aspects it was much better, generaly when it goes to performance but class balance was far from ok. Remeber emperor DK's tanking whole zergs?

Lexxypwns · February 2018

All pvp balance changes need to be added to battle spirit so as not to hurt pve.

VaranisArano · February 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

All pvp balance changes need to be added to battle spirit so as not to hurt pve.

Right? That change to Power of the Light would be a major PVE nerf to what is otherwise a nifty way to support the group's overall damage.

antihero727 · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.

With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.

1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1

-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.

2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else

-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.

3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.

-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge

4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg

- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds

These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing

Here goes the start of another nerf sorc thread. Stop trying to shift the meta again, AOE caps are removed. If that’s not enough for small scale then run in bigger groups or find the fights your looking for

Zer0oo · February 2018

On the bridge side they finally seem to understand that snares are overpowered and if they also would see how op resource poisons are i would be happy.

Biro123 · February 2018

Can't support the curse change.. sorcs getting kills is completely reliant on aligning those burst abilities - which can be difficult enough when facing a competent player or multiple opponents - the last thing I want to for that alignment to get screwed up by a friendly too...

And from a DW-sorc perspective - its the closest thing to a spammable - don't go taking that away!

pieratsos · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.

The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.

An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.

The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.

Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Stopped at 'casual friendly'.

Seems someone should go back to dark souls.

Wasn't it you who said that you've stopped veteran dungeons because they are too hard?

Inaccurate.

It's more accurate to say that I stopped because the restrictions put in place by the sustain nerfs, and other class changes, made it so I couldn't do the content with a build I found fun. So I stopped doing the content. I begrudge them for it, and I know you can make a system with build freedom and interesting mechanics. I know. I've played it before.

Perhaps, you should try a similar solution. Maybe it's time to hang up the spurs.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sigh.

Another thread asking for nerfs to solve problems in PvP.

I keep saying this is all they do, and this is all they do.

I am vindicated time and again, but no one is willing to cut them off.

Jura23 · February 2018

1vX should be extremely hard. Actually the best warriors irl will do everything they can to avoid such situations.

That being said, I'm all for nerfing posions.

Hurtfan · February 2018

The first 2 suggestions are nerfs, no more nerfs. And where does it say in the Cyrodiil handbook that it wasn't meant for zergs? I don't get the anti-zerg mentality when it comes to Cyrodiil, zerg = an army, armies fight wars.

The lag needs to be fixed in Cyrodiil, class abilities don't need to be nerfed to fit the play-style you prefer.

There is a lot of strategy even when zerging so I'm wondering if you PvP much at all as it is.

BohnT · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

All pvp balance changes need to be added to battle spirit so as not to hurt pve.

Right? That change to Power of the Light would be a major PVE nerf to what is otherwise a nifty way to support the group's overall damage.

If you've read my proposed changes to PoTl you'll see that in compensation for the damage of other players the outnumbered of damage that is stored by your own damage gets increased.
Meaning: no changes in PvE as everyone will still be able to hit the cap
But that in PvP healbots or people who don't attack you further than using PotL/ Purifying on you don't deal crazy amounts of burst damage to you with almost no counterplay to it

VaranisArano · February 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.

The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.

An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.

The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.

Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.

So Purge doesn't count as counterplay for poisons?

As for the skills, whenever I'm the focus of a bunch of enemy players, I don't get worked,over the specific skill that killed me. Sooner or later, they were going to kill me with something or more likely, some combo of something. If "can be used more effectively in larger groups against smaller groups" is the standard for nerfs I'm not seeing a lot that shouldn't be nerfed.

BohnT · February 2018

The changes I proposed for Curse won't touch anything in PvE if you read my posts correctly.
In PvP however the ability to stack curses on one player is way too powerful, preventing people from stacking it doesn't make sorcs useless it just reduces their Xv1 potential which is already among the best in the game.

It won't change curse in 1v1, it won't change it in 1vX it will only change it in Xv1

Samadhi · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.

With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.
...

ZOS wanted to pretend that Cyrodiil could be a one-stop solution to all PvP in this game,
that did not work out

instead they added dueling and BGs so smaller scale players would have the options of play available to them via game mechanics

Cyrodiil did not just become more casual friendly; Cyrodiil became the home for casual PvP
anyone looking for serious PvP in Cyrodiil at this point is just a casual who is lying to himself or herself

techprince · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.

With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.

1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1

-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.

2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else

-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.

3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.

-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge

4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg

- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds

These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing

You are implying everyone runs poisons which isnt the case. However, cost poisons should be removed from the game.

Curse stacking was already present, backlash stacking was added in this patch. Both specifically counter 1 vs X and it should and it will stay the same. This is small/large scale PvP and balance is done accordingly. If you want 1 vs 1, go duel outside.

Earthgore was nerfed but its healing is still high which will need another nerf.

That being said, your disguise for "make 1 vs X easier" has been blown.

Samadhi · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Stopped at 'casual friendly'.

Seems someone should go back to dark souls.

Dark Souls is not actually a hardcore game,
Dark Souls just got picked up by action adventure fans who lacked familiarity with RPG mechanics
Dark Souls is a pretty traditional jrpg in that respect
everything of any note can be overcome by grinding trash to level up for a bit before tackling it
the game just frequently gets treated as a title with a sort of 'lives' mechanic instead

AhPook_Is_Here · February 2018

Looking at the launch videos of Cyrodiil, I'm pretty sure this game was always meant to be large scale vs large scale. Even weeks after launch guilds like Gaiscioch were sporting 4 full 24 man groups on pvp nights and it was a lot of fun and actually not very laggy.

At some point around the lighting/anti-bot patch they broke whatever was working and made the game laggy in any large scale combat. However, even then small groups could face larger groups and win, sometimes very small groups with large uncapped AOE, healing 20m bat-swarms, 20m banners, 20m talons and damage based ult generation.

Other than the bad server networking the game is is pretty good shape today. I really don't think that small scale is at much of a disadvantage, compared to what one might expect. Back in the launch days, I'm pretty sure most of those solo/small scale strengths weren't really intended and that's why they all went away. They sure were good times when they were times, but like most mmos that had setups where one guy could take out 100, while they make interesting videos, they also turned some of those large guilds with near 1,000 players over 4 guilds to like 30 or 40 people. Not a good system to stay in business.

Samadhi · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

All pvp balance changes need to be added to battle spirit so as not to hurt pve.

Right? That change to Power of the Light would be a major PVE nerf to what is otherwise a nifty way to support the group's overall damage.

There is something comical to the suggestion that the skill is overpowered because it can be used by healers and tanks in PvP
when the only Templar builds it gets used on for my PvE is a healer and a tank
because it is a useful little support tool for the tank
with the stationary pool of healing that procs off the magicka morph

BohnT · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Oy people. Xv1 does not mean 1vX. Really just talking about how mechanics make uneven numbers have an even greater effect than just having more numbers. Whether its 15v10 15v5 15v13. OP is clearly talking about things that make numbers greater than the sum of its parts. As someone said; you can't expect even numbers. So why make it even more damning when you run into a larger group.

The OP gave a couple of examples of things that groups with greater numbers can use to good effect to focus and kill smaller groups.

An organized raid can do the same thing with light attacks. Nerf light attack spam, it favors large groups who can hit the enemy more times and with more firepower than the small group can.

The OP gave a couple of examples of horribly designed mechanics. Your example with light attacks is not even close to what he is actually suggesting.

Its not about making cyro designed for solo or small scale. Cyro is and should be designed for large scale fights and when you are fighting outnumbered you should be in a disadvantage. But you should be in a disadvantage because you dont have the numbers, not because horribly designed mechanics start adding up leaving no room for actual counterplay.

So Purge doesn't count as counterplay for poisons?

As for the skills, whenever I'm the focus of a bunch of enemy players, I don't get worked,over the specific skill that killed me. Sooner or later, they were going to kill me with something or more likely, some combo of something. If "can be used more effectively in larger groups against smaller groups" is the standard for nerfs I'm not seeing a lot that shouldn't be nerfed.

techprince wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Over the past 2 years the game became more and more casual friendly, along with making zergs more powerful than ever and destroying small scale pvp almost completely.
If you look how Cyro was advertised it was not solely ment to be a zerg fest. It was made to be played successfully by groups of all sizes.

With certain changes however numbers were truly favored and small groups or solo players got the shaft.

1. Change the Poison cooldown.
Right now the poison cooldown is attacker based and not like CC immunity target based. This means if multiple people attack you with poisons you get to receive all and effects of those poisons. This also means that small groups can affect less people with their poison while big zergs can apply poison to everyone of the smaller group making the already overperfoming poisons even stronger for Xv1

-Change the Poison cooldown to a poison immunity meaning: When you got hit by a poison you have a 10 seconds immunity to get hit by another poison.

2. Remove curse stacking. Curse is a powerful burst that has no counterplay outside of purging, with 3-4 sorcs applying curse to you they can kill you without counterplay available for you as it comes in one big burst which will then kill you ----> benefits numbers more than anything else

-Introduce a Curse limit for everything in the game, in PvP the curse limit is one meaning you can be affected by 1 curse at the same time (can not be overwritten by another curse), in group dungeons the curse limit for all enemies is 4 as you can only bring 4 sorcs to them and for Trials it's 12.

3. PotL / purifying Light need to be changed to only be charged by the damage the caster itself deals and not the damage the target receives from all sources. This makes the skill too zerg friendly as it can be spammed by healers/tanks which shouldn't be able to hit you with a hit >9k only because you get already zerged by his friends.

-Change it so only the damage the caster deals is applied to the end damage and not the damage of everyone. To balance this out the stored amount would have to be increased slightly to make it possible to still get the full charge

4. Earthgore makes zerging all the more easy and is a slap into the face for small groups. With the high cooldown it's impossible to have a good uptime with a small group. A big group however can have the set ready at all times and one proc alone is enough to save every member of the zerg

- Half the radius of the proc, reduce the healing by 60% but increase the duration to 8 seconds

These changes would make it more balanced when fighting with a smaller group against zergs, this doesn't mean however that they will win every fight as the zerg still has the advantage in numbers, damage and healing

You are implying everyone runs poisons which isnt the case. However, cost poisons should be removed from the game.

Curse stacking was already present, backlash stacking was added in this patch. Both specifically counter 1 vs X and it should and it will stay the same. This is small/large scale PvP and balance is done accordingly. If you want 1 vs 1, go duel outside.

Earthgore was nerfed but its healing is still high which will need another nerf.

That being said, your disguise for "make 1 vs X easier" has been blown.

I didn't knew it was hard for some people to understand basic sententinal logic.
For the record Yeah i want 1vX / Small scale to be easier by balancing over performing things

Biro123 · February 2018

BohnT wrote: »

The changes I proposed for Curse won't touch anything in PvE if you read my posts correctly.
In PvP however the ability to stack curses on one player is way too powerful, preventing people from stacking it doesn't make sorcs useless it just reduces their Xv1 potential which is already among the best in the game.

It won't change curse in 1v1, it won't change it in 1vX it will only change it in Xv1

and XvX..

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

Samadhi wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Stopped at 'casual friendly'.

Seems someone should go back to dark souls.

Dark Souls is not actually a hardcore game,
Dark Souls just got picked up by action adventure fans who lacked familiarity with RPG mechanics
Dark Souls is a pretty traditional jrpg in that respect
everything of any note can be overcome by grinding trash to level up for a bit before tackling it
the game just frequently gets treated as a title with a sort of 'lives' mechanic instead

Replace dark souls with any game you feel accurately fits the hard core mold. By all means.

BohnT · February 2018

Here is the interview where Wheeler Talks about Groups http://tamrieljournal.com/eso-pvp-qa-with-brian-wheeler/

Q: Are you going to make sure that AOE skills will be strong enough to help small and coordinated groups fend off larger and less organized groups?

A: I can say that Siege weaponry and the like have been adjusted to help make this a possibility (and in fact was proven as a legitimate tactic at Chalman Keep during Beta), and we are always balancing our abilities across the board to find the right population and skill ratio so small groups and large groups are effective in the open field. As Elder Scrolls Online will receive updates through out it’s lifetime, there will be many passes at skills, weapons, armor and abilities that will benefit everyone both small and large, open field or not, in PvE and PVP

Samadhi · February 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Stopped at 'casual friendly'.

Seems someone should go back to dark souls.

Dark Souls is not actually a hardcore game,
Dark Souls just got picked up by action adventure fans who lacked familiarity with RPG mechanics
Dark Souls is a pretty traditional jrpg in that respect
everything of any note can be overcome by grinding trash to level up for a bit before tackling it
the game just frequently gets treated as a title with a sort of 'lives' mechanic instead

Replace dark souls with any game you feel accurately fits the hard core mold. By all means.

Do not personally feel much fits into it
some games have hardcore options --
Pillars of Eternity, Divinity: Original Sin 1 and 2, Xcom
all have path of iron modes where death actually means something in the context of campaign advancement

Dark Souls just has a death mechanic some people are not used to when first encountering the game

Even PvP comes down to a matter of knowing game mechanics and trolling with them rather than necessarily skillful play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4nJPeoVhwA

It is, however, comparatively fair when it comes to PvP matchups
Dark Souls 1 and 2 were finicky to get set to an offline mode, but Dark Souls 3 has the options built into the game menus
but when playing online, it matches Invasions and Jolly Cooperation relative to your character level,
and notifies you when someone has Invaded you

stealth hunting is still an option; but the target always knows they are being hunted
in Cyrodiil one just has to presume himself or herself to be being hunted upon entry into the map

Dark Souls 3 also did something interesting with Covenants
the first Covenant the player is given is the Way of Blue
the mechanics of it are such that when a player with Way of Blue equipped gets Invaded
one to two PvP players from the Blue Sentinels or Blades of the Darkmoon Covenant are summoned as well
so someone who favours PvE in Dark Souls 3 can be invaded by a PvP-oriented player
but the game summons PvP-oriented players to help the PvE player
and that way the Invader has an opportunity to fight someone interested in fighting rather than someone who hates being invaded

Dark Souls PvP sometimes gets represented as hardcoreish
but mostly it 'just' keeps fights small-scale to mitigate issues like lag and server mob depopulation
(ie: Dark Souls is an online RPG where the player can clear all story content in an offline mode if so chosen)

ssewallb14_ESO · February 2018

Yeah there really shouldn't be mechanics that scale up based on how much you outnumber an enemy. It should be an even playing field.

While it may seem like something that benefits the casual audience, it actually does the opposite. You end up raising the skill floor on solo and small scale (not necessarily even intentional outnumbered PvP) to the point where only the best players can even play in that context. This basically forces everyone below that skill threshold into a zerg if they want to do anything but die over and over. This is why small scale is "dead" compared to earlier patches, the path from casual to expert has been blocked by mechanics that make it hard to even be a small group, let alone an elite one. The existing small-scale community consists almost entirely of players who started before this problem got to this point.