Would "hiding the numbers" resolve a lot of complaining in MMOs like ESO?

HorrorShow · February 2018

ghastley wrote: »

If the UI was up to showing wounds, having enemies bleed, and all the other real-life feedback that tells how how the battle's going, then I'd agree with this.

But it doesn't. A toon is perfectly health-looking until he keels over dead, so you need the numbers for feedback. And the game internally needs the same numbers to work out when he's dead.

This is an excellent point. The numbers are there because videogames have not reached the point of being able to show us visual cues better. Of having realistic damage mechanics. Throwing a butterknife at a dragon's snout for 5 hours should do nothing. Throwing one spear through the dragon's eye into his brain should kill him instantly.

We can remove the numbers when we can simulate it better.

CromulentForumID · February 2018

City of Heroes tried this. The lead designer when the game launched believed the very principle you espouse in this thread. "Immersion! You don't need numbers! It takes away from the feeling of being a super hero!"

Except, players would go and test and figure all of the numbers out. They were posted on the forums. And then in game, you saw some interesting "truths" about building characters in chat.

You didn't need the actual numbers to know Assault Rifle characters weren't the best. Or that Fire Tanks had a lot of trouble with "X" content. Those players could easily get excluded with nary a number to be seen.

COH eventually relented and added a crafting system for more intricate character builds, and added the ability to "see the numbers." Many players were happier. At the very least, the character building process became more interesting.

If you're going to hang your hat on something "feeling more epic," the argument is already lost. You can't tell people how to feel, or how they will feel. You can say how you feel, or would feel, and hope that a lot of others come along for the ride.

MaleAmazon · February 2018

Also, you have normal mode.. you can´t really get rid of a-holes by hiding numbers. If people want to be disruptive and kick everyone who doesnt use meta gear, you can do this, numbers or not. The solution there is to police MMOs the way you would any other sports events. (Try cheating and screaming c*** at other players in a football match while shoving your *** in their face, and see what happens). But it seems few companies care about this and expect players to police themselves.

ESO is a competitive game in veteran mode. Do normal and you can use basically any setup.

I´d like stats to be more tied to player rather than equipment though. Would be nice once you found a sword that was special to you, that you could upgrade it to max stats rather than discarding it cause higher level equipment suddenly appeared. Skyrim mods kinda solved that in that modders usually made stuff at daedric level or similar, not worse or better.

But costumes mostly takes care of that for me and now they have outfits, so...

Nestor · February 2018

Not sure we need to change the game for or because of or in spite of the Elitists.

I never group with these people to be honest, so not sure what all the hubbub is about. I am sure they are out there, as I have seen the zone chat advertisements looking for certain stats. Thing is, the Elitists will always be there, can't change that. You can change who you group with, or avoid the elitists when you do group.

Knowledge · February 2018

You guys don't understand but you would like this I can assure you. It's just like Henry Ford said. " If the people got what they wanted they would have asked for faster horses. "

Tonturri · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

You guys don't understand but you would like this I can assure you. It's just like Henry Ford said. " If the people got what they wanted they would have asked for faster horses. "

What even? Don't even start trying to take quotes out of context and apply them to things very, VERY different from the context they were spoken in.

You're not breaking new ground here. Games have tried this already (BDO comes to mind). It hasn't worked. People have already listed some solid cons to this. Besides, with addons and the settings provided, you can pretty much already do this. Based on past/current games...use the settings and addons available if you want to do this. Trying to force it on other people is not going to work.

7/10 troll I guess if that's the case.

gothickaiserub17_ESO · February 2018

It would reduce the amount I complained about the game by 100%... as well as 100% reduction in the amount i played the game.

If after removing all numbers you used small amount, moderate amount, large amount, and so on if people were even still interested in the game they would assigned values to it through rigorous testing, and still ridicule players for there crappy builds.

Worse yet, the meta could be a little off, advice harder to find and sketchy when you do find it, and new players would have no idea how to improve when they were met with something too hard, if they were never met with a challenge then things would be worse off most people would get bored and leave.

Edit: have you played older RPGs when they did this? most frustrating games ever, eventually you come across things that maybe don't work, with no number to back it up the Dev's don't fix as many bugs and you start to lose faith in anything unique doing what it says, it becomes a mess of guess and check and word of mouth stats

Runefang · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

You guys don't understand but you would like this I can assure you. It's just like Henry Ford said. " If the people got what they wanted they would have asked for faster horses. "

Hahaha

No.

While I'm sure you would like it, but don't make assumption about me. I like to go into a dungeon doing 70% of the DPS knowing I'm much better than the other noobs with me. How would I maintain my self-esteem without these numbers?

Runefang · February 2018

Nestor wrote: »

Not sure we need to change the game for or because of or in spite of the Elitists.

I never group with these people to be honest, so not sure what all the hubbub is about. I am sure they are out there, as I have seen the zone chat advertisements looking for certain stats. Thing is, the Elitists will always be there, can't change that. You can change who you group with, or avoid the elitists when you do group.

Elitists is a term like casuals. Elitists are simply people who want to be better than you are, casuals are those who are happy to be worse than you are.

LordSemaj · February 2018

Runefang wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Not sure we need to change the game for or because of or in spite of the Elitists.

I never group with these people to be honest, so not sure what all the hubbub is about. I am sure they are out there, as I have seen the zone chat advertisements looking for certain stats. Thing is, the Elitists will always be there, can't change that. You can change who you group with, or avoid the elitists when you do group.

Elitists is a term like casuals. Elitists are simply people who want to be better than you are, casuals are those who are happy to be worse than you are.

Not really. Casual is the term thrown around by players who want to do their best and get good at something, always putting in effort to becoming better at playing the game even if it's unpleasant and tedious work like researching builds or mastering rotations. The term casual refers to the players who are too lazy to do these things or even follow simple advice when it's offered, rejecting any such assistance while growing alarmingly defensive about people trying to tell them how to play. Yet that sort of treatment, offering advice and exchanging information, is precisely how the other group of players gets better at the game. They can't understand why "casuals" get so wound up about something that everyone else does and benefits from. It's like they refuse to learn and think themselves to have superior opinions, so really the casuals have big egos as evident by their rejection of all outside input and reliance on self-established conceptions.

Meanwhile, the term elitist is the casual's weapon to throw back at these players who cooperate as a community to learn from each other and push each other to become the best they can be. Casuals either fear the dedication of these players or resent their commitment to excelling. Some casuals even think these so-called elitists harbor some next-level latent psychic ability that allows them to perform at superhuman levels. In actuality, these "elitists" merely learned how to play the game the same way they are trying to teach the "casuals" how to do so.

So when you really think about it, most of the people dubbed as Elitists are just normal gamers who are motivated to win, just as any normal person would be after they failed to beat that 7th Stage Boss. Try, try again is their motto. While those dubbed Casuals are immune to logic and couldn't care less about putting in much effort to try to clear the game, because it's "just a game", which for some reason doesn't stop them from queuing for dungeon content they aren't ready for.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

You guys don't understand but you would like this I can assure you. It's just like Henry Ford said. " If the people got what they wanted they would have asked for faster horses. "

Ah the classic, it isn’t that you just disagree with me, and might have a valid opinion all your own. No you all are just to dumb to understand I’m right.

Well played.

ecru · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

You guys don't understand but you would like this I can assure you. It's just like Henry Ford said. " If the people got what they wanted they would have asked for faster horses. "

henry ford offered a new and improved method of transportation, while your idea is basically moving backwards from a mostly transparent system to one where you have little to no information available about what's going on. there's no improvement there.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

This would be all good and fine in casual quest conent,

Knowledge wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

What are you smoking and can you share it with the rest of us?

I just don't think you're seeing the whole picture. This isn't really as far fetched as you think. Just imagine you and your group of adventurers come upon a large dragon. He is mean and looks menacing. The dragon even says something to you to frighten you and your comrades along the lines of "Your end is all but assured."

You now have to do battle with this great big dragon. You're fighting him with your swords, your magic spells, and you don't know if you're wounding him but your comrades may have fallen once or twice forcing you to raise them with soul gems. You continue on into the encounter doing everything you can to bring him down without one bit of information telling you when the encounter will end, how much he is wounded, or anything of the such. You'd be so immersed with this dragon battle that you would be excited and possibly perspiring as you and your friends in battle finally bring him down.

I can only talk for me but I don’t find a 5 hours slog fest through Wayrest Sewers “exciting” just because my teammates like to role play.

I think it's something you think you don't or won't like but you actually will. You'll really feel like a warrior in a fantasy battle fighting your way through a demon infested dungeon.

I kind of feel like you might be better off writing a book.

LordSemaj · February 2018

Nevermind, I just noticed Knowledge is the OP, which would make that totally the opposite of what he's saying. XD

Lol.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

You guys don't understand but you would like this I can assure you. It's just like Henry Ford said. " If the people got what they wanted they would have asked for faster horses. "

Are you familiar with end game trials? I certainly does not sound as such.I can assure you that crowd would not enjoy this.

IZZEFlameLash · February 2018

What you don't know DO and CAN hurt people. A lot more than what you know. Removing numbers or any other features will not change a thing. You can pretend to not have seen the wild fire coming at you. But does not mean the fire isn't there and won't kill you. This is a very bad idea. Not knowing can generate even more complaints also anyways. Minimal is not always the best answer and it sure isn't here.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

IZZESparkling wrote: »

What you don't know DO and CAN hurt people. A lot more than what you know. Removing numbers or any other features will not change a thing. You can pretend to not have seen the wild fire coming at you. But does not mean the fire isn't there and won't kill you. This is a very bad idea. Not knowing can generate even more complaints also anyways. Minimal is not always the best answer and it sure isn't here.

I was just about to write something very similar,but no need now.

temjiu · February 2018

I don't think removing them completely will solve the issue, the min/max crowd would still crunch what they could find. Addon's would be made for them, then the Addons would be a requirement barrier, etc.

That's not to say that adjusting visuals couldn't help. I feel odd when I can log onto my level one toon, and show damage of 1010 on a sword, then hop onto my level 50 and see 1020 damage. it's a bit disheartening, and makes progression feel weird. They could easily just lose the 1000 on my level 1 toon. Even if its still in the background, it would make gear progression feel much more relevant.

Runefang · February 2018

LordSemaj wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Not sure we need to change the game for or because of or in spite of the Elitists.

I never group with these people to be honest, so not sure what all the hubbub is about. I am sure they are out there, as I have seen the zone chat advertisements looking for certain stats. Thing is, the Elitists will always be there, can't change that. You can change who you group with, or avoid the elitists when you do group.

Elitists is a term like casuals. Elitists are simply people who want to be better than you are, casuals are those who are happy to be worse than you are.

Not really. Casual is the term thrown around by players who want to do their best and get good at something, always putting in effort to becoming better at playing the game even if it's unpleasant and tedious work like researching builds or mastering rotations. The term casual refers to the players who are too lazy to do these things or even follow simple advice when it's offered, rejecting any such assistance while growing alarmingly defensive about people trying to tell them how to play. Yet that sort of treatment, offering advice and exchanging information, is precisely how the other group of players gets better at the game. They can't understand why "casuals" get so wound up about something that everyone else does and benefits from. It's like they refuse to learn and think themselves to have superior opinions, so really the casuals have big egos as evident by their rejection of all outside input and reliance on self-established conceptions.

Meanwhile, the term elitist is the casual's weapon to throw back at these players who cooperate as a community to learn from each other and push each other to become the best they can be. Casuals either fear the dedication of these players or resent their commitment to excelling. Some casuals even think these so-called elitists harbor some next-level latent psychic ability that allows them to perform at superhuman levels. In actuality, these "elitists" merely learned how to play the game the same way they are trying to teach the "casuals" how to do so.

So when you really think about it, most of the people dubbed as Elitists are just normal gamers who are motivated to win, just as any normal person would be after they failed to beat that 7th Stage Boss. Try, try again is their motto. While those dubbed Casuals are immune to logic and couldn't care less about putting in much effort to try to clear the game, because it's "just a game", which for some reason doesn't stop them from queuing for dungeon content they aren't ready for.

Aside from your first two words I think you're agreeing with me on the whole.

The two terms are just labels for people who have opposing play styles.

You just sound like you're more on the 'Elitist' end of the spectrum. What a 'normal' person does is entirely subjective based on your own perspective.

starkerealm · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea...

It doesn't work. Cryptic tried it with two MMOs back in the day, and there are a few other MMOs with similar philosophies. Basically, culling out the numbers doesn't change anything, except make theory crafting more difficult.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea...

It doesn't work. Cryptic tried it with two MMOs back in the day, and there are a few other MMOs with similar philosophies. Basically, culling out the numbers doesn't change anything, except make theory crafting more difficult.

Additionally this would likely cause a influx of bad builds,and to be quite frank we have enough of them already.

starkerealm · February 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea...

It doesn't work. Cryptic tried it with two MMOs back in the day, and there are a few other MMOs with similar philosophies. Basically, culling out the numbers doesn't change anything, except make theory crafting more difficult.

Additionally this would likely cause a influx of bad builds,and to be quite frank we have enough of them already.

In point of fact, it results in exactly that.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea...

It doesn't work. Cryptic tried it with two MMOs back in the day, and there are a few other MMOs with similar philosophies. Basically, culling out the numbers doesn't change anything, except make theory crafting more difficult.

Additionally this would likely cause a influx of bad builds,and to be quite frank we have enough of them already.

In point of fact, it results in exactly that.

Why said it.Not referring to specifically meta builds either.I would simply make build more difficult make for those who don't follow Alcast.

starkerealm · February 2018

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

This is just a wild idea...

It doesn't work. Cryptic tried it with two MMOs back in the day, and there are a few other MMOs with similar philosophies. Basically, culling out the numbers doesn't change anything, except make theory crafting more difficult.

Additionally this would likely cause a influx of bad builds,and to be quite frank we have enough of them already.

In point of fact, it results in exactly that.

Why said it.Not referring to specifically meta builds either.I would simply make build more difficult make for those who don't follow Alcast.

Which, again, is exactly what happened. To be fair, both games I'm thinking of did, ultimately, let you get at the numbers, but it was obfuscated under three or four layers of descriptions.

They've since gone 180, and now you know (almost) exactly what you're getting.

It also had the hilarious feature of having several situations where only one given response was even viable in slot (to say nothing of best in), and you'd still see loads of people pulling some of the options that simply didn't work, and throwing those out there because they sounded viable.

zaria · February 2018

Nestor wrote: »

Not sure we need to change the game for or because of or in spite of the Elitists.

I never group with these people to be honest, so not sure what all the hubbub is about. I am sure they are out there, as I have seen the zone chat advertisements looking for certain stats. Thing is, the Elitists will always be there, can't change that. You can change who you group with, or avoid the elitists when you do group.

This so much, you get kicked for dying to much or not filling your role, later is fake tank / healer or low dps.
You can also get kicked for beeing low cp who can be a bit unfair

That is dungeon finder, if you join group in zone who want to do bloodroot forge hard mode and have never cleared in veteran expect to get kicked fast.

Gorrest · February 2018

Funny enough, I would actually like more it solely based on the reason of more spreadsheets for me. Finding out everything and measuring in it terms of a certain skills for comparison. Basically doing 100-200 test for each skill would give me something to do in the game that I would enjoy.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

If you hide the numbers in the game, you would have a much harder time figuring out when skills and passives are broke, like the hemorrhage passive is right now.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/395286/nightblade-passive-hemorrhage-bugged-and-not-working

starkerealm · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

If you hide the numbers in the game, you would have a much harder time figuring out when skills and passives are broke, like the hemorrhage passive is right now.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/395286/nightblade-passive-hemorrhage-bugged-and-not-working

You'd see arguments over it, in fact. I still remember when the gear deterioration bug was a thing back near launch, when we had players berating people suffering from it, because their gear would break at a horrifying rate. Being told they were taking too much damage, and so on.

Arkray · February 2018

Uncle Sheo was here

Nestor · February 2018

Runefang wrote: »

Elitists is a term like casuals. Elitists are simply who think they are better than you are, casuals are those who don't care about the numbers as long as they are having fun.

Fixed that for you...

Elitism is a state of mind, not a status.