Bow Drawbacks (Pun!) and Realistic Improvements to Make Archer Builds More Fun and Effective

GrumpyDuckling · February 2018

Drawback #1 - Iffy Access to Major Brutality.
The bow is the only weapon in the game (except the defensive-focused one hand and shield) that has to rely on either another weapon or a class-based skill to acquire a key offensive buff (major brutality). All weapons and builds have easy access to major sorcery through the Mage's guild skill Entropy. Depending on the bow user's class, both access to and efficiency in acquiring major brutality can get iffy or not even exist at all.

Dragonknight - Easy/Efficient access through Igneous Weapons
Nightblade - Tricky/Inefficient access (Power Extraction requires an enemy and has an 8 meter range)
Sorcerer - Easy/Efficient access through Critical Surge
Templar - No access
Warden - Easy/Efficient access through Bull Netch

Improvement Suggestion - Introduce a monster helm that gives Major Brutality and Major Sorcery (think opposite effect of Mighty Chudan) which would potentially allow all players (and players with bow-only builds) access to the buff without occupying a valuable 5 piece bonus (Dreugh King Slayer).

(1 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(2 items) Gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery at all times, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%.
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon and Spell Critical

Drawback #2 - Bow Occupies Both Weapon Slots
Despite characters holding the bow in one hand and firing arrows with another, the bow still counts as a two-handed weapon. Archer builds cannot independently run the valuable 5-5-2 armor set up due to lack of an armor/weapon slot. Changing the bow to count as 2 weapons might be enough to make independent bow-only builds more viable.

Improvement Suggestion - Allow the bow to count as 2 weapons instead of occupying both slots as 1 item. Bow + Arrows/Quiver

Drawback #3 - Inconsistent Heal
The skill Draining Shot is a bow skill that offers the user a heal. The problem is that the heal only works if the enemy is not immune to crowd control. The skill can be quite useless against enemies who cannot be CC'd, and/or chaotic PVP situations where CC control over the opponent may be difficult to achieve.

Improvement Suggestion - Allow the skill to always heal, but cut the heal in half if the target is CC immune.

Drawback #4 - The Too Expensive Single-Target Ultimate
With the exception of Ballista (which allows the user to continue using other attacks and stack them while the ultimate fires at the enemy) the Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage morphs appear to be far too expensive compared to the other most comparable single-target ultimate in the game, Soul Strike. Unlike Soul Strike, Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage have to deal with a frequently used, additional counter in that they can be dodged by the enemy. Soul Strike is also available with every weapon and every build, while Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage both require the bow to be equipped.

Improvement Suggestion - Reduce the costs of Rapid Fire to 100, and Toxic Barrage to 125.

@ZOS_Holden I see you collecting feedback and inspiring the community. This post is for you, buddy!

Lynx7386 · February 2018

On point 2: your logic that bows only use one hand because the other is holding arrows is pretty funny. Staves literally only use one ha d and they don't count for two set items either.

GrumpyDuckling · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

On point 2: your logic that bows only use one hand because the other is holding arrows is pretty funny. Staves literally only use one ha d and they don't count for two set items either.

I know! I think the only time the character even grabs the staff with both hands is for a block.

AcadianPaladin · February 2018

Bow/bow builds also need some help in a couple other areas, both driven by the fact that, to an archer, speed is life.

1. Snipe. Reduce the cast time or allow the skill to be fired while moving at full speed.
2. Sustain. Reduce the time it takes to charge a heavy attack and/or allow the heavy attack to be charged while moving at full speed. Currently, heavy bow attacks are pretty worthless to help sustain - they are slow and can be suicidal.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Bow/bow builds also need some help in a couple other areas, both driven by the fact that, to an archer, speed is life.

1. Snipe. Reduce the cast time or allow the skill to be fired while moving at full speed.
2. Sustain. Reduce the time it takes to charge a heavy attack and/or allow the heavy attack to be charged while moving at full speed. Currently, heavy bow attacks are pretty worthless to help sustain - they are slow and can be suicidal.

1. they are doing this next patch, from 50% to 25%

bows need a way to survive. something on par with brawler/rally or blade cloak. there is no reason to bring them into any serious content.

to the op, you "drawback #1" is not really a problem, in the kind of content where that buff matters most, people are chugging pots off cooldown,. pots that give them that buff.

please read this fine thread before making suggestions.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve/p1

and lol at making bow 2 set pieces, you beat that dead horse buddy, beat it good.

xbobx · February 2018

1. they are doing this next patch, from 50% to 25%

did i miss something?

JobooAGS · February 2018

Dunno what skill they can redo to make bows more surviable, maybe replace the longshot passive with something that improves survivability like a damage shield that increases with each hawkeye stack that is >5? (No melee stam build will get >5 hawk eye stacks reliabily, so it is not a buff to melee stam and bow builds should rarely if not never lose their stacks)

xbobx · February 2018

bows were designed as secondary weapons/utility.

JobooAGS · February 2018

xbobx wrote: »

bows were designed as secondary weapons/utility.

Says who?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

xbobx wrote: »

1. they are doing this next patch, from 50% to 25%

did i miss something?

I am quoting @SodanTok in this post, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4835893/#Comment_4835893

Have any of you read that thread? It is literally perfect, explains what bows need and why they are not used in end game content as a front bar weapon.

xbobx · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

xbobx wrote: »

1. they are doing this next patch, from 50% to 25%

did i miss something?

I am quoting @SodanTok in this post, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4835893/#Comment_4835893

Have any of you read that thread? It is literally perfect, explains what bows need and why they are not used in end game content as a front bar weapon.

thank you.

Saturnana · February 2018

xbobx wrote: »

bows were designed as secondary weapons/utility.

This guy respectfully disagrees.

xbobx · February 2018

lnsane wrote: »

xbobx wrote: »

bows were designed as secondary weapons/utility.

This guy respectfully disagrees.

oh my. I stand corrected

DDuke · February 2018

I 100% agree with points 1-3 & I'd like to add a couple more (PvP specific):

Lack of a viable ranged CC. The only class with access to a decent stamina ranged CC is Templar (Binding Javelin), rest of the classes don't have good options. Solution: Scatter Shot range needs to be increased significantly from the current 10m, you can't expect bow builds to run up to targets' melee range in order to CC them - that's ridiculous.
Passives that discourage you from slotting class skills. There's no reason why Long Shots for instance shouldn't apply to ranged stamina class skills (Relentless Focus, Cutting Dive, Binding Javelin).
On PTS, Acid Spray/Bombard are still dodgeable, contrary to most other AoE abilities - changing them to undodgeable would help bow immensely vs dodge rollers (against whom bow suffers outside gank scenarios).

Regarding your point 4 though - Ballista is an extremely powerful ultimate when used properly, I'm a bit scared of what'd happen if it became cheaper.

What they could do is make the other channeled morph cheaper though (and undodgeable) to bring it in line with Soul Assault.

Valykc · February 2018

Only thing I care about is switching rapid fire and snipe. Make snipe the ultimate and rapid fire a spammable skill, adjust numbers as needed and I’ll be super happy.

Ley · February 2018

I just came for the Pun.

NyassaV · February 2018

The blade cloak effect needs to be moved under medium armor passives

JobooAGS · February 2018

Valykc wrote: »

Only thing I care about is switching rapid fire and snipe. Make snipe the ultimate and rapid fire a spammable skill, adjust numbers as needed and I’ll be super happy.

Hear hear

Toc de Malsvi · February 2018

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Drawback #1 - Iffy Access to Major Brutality.
The bow is the only weapon in the game (except the defensive-focused one hand and shield) that has to rely on either another weapon or a class-based skill to acquire a key offensive buff (major brutality). All weapons and builds have easy access to major sorcery through the Mage's guild skill Entropy. Depending on the bow user's class, both access to and efficiency in acquiring major brutality can get iffy or not even exist at all.

Dragonknight - Easy/Efficient access through Igneous Weapons
Nightblade - Tricky/Inefficient access (Power Extraction requires an enemy and has an 8 meter range)
Sorcerer - Easy/Efficient access through Critical Surge
Templar - No access
Warden - Easy/Efficient access through Bull Netch

Improvement Suggestion - Introduce a monster helm that gives Major Brutality and Major Sorcery (think opposite effect of Mighty Chudan) which would potentially allow all players (and players with bow-only builds) access to the buff without occupying a valuable 5 piece bonus (Dreugh King Slayer).
(1 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(2 items) Gain Major Brutality and Major Sorcery at all times, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%.
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon and Spell Critical

Drawback #2 - Bow Occupies Both Weapon Slots
Despite characters holding the bow in one hand and firing arrows with another, the bow still counts as a two-handed weapon. Archer builds cannot independently run the valuable 5-5-2 armor set up due to lack of an armor/weapon slot. Changing the bow to count as 2 weapons might be enough to make independent bow-only builds more viable.

Improvement Suggestion - Allow the bow to count as 2 weapons instead of occupying both slots as 1 item. Bow + Arrows/Quiver

Drawback #3 - Inconsistent Heal
The skill Draining Shot is a bow skill that offers the user a heal. The problem is that the heal only works if the enemy is not immune to crowd control. The skill can be quite useless against enemies who cannot be CC'd, and/or chaotic PVP situations where CC control over the opponent may be difficult to achieve.

Improvement Suggestion - Allow the skill to always heal, but cut the heal in half if the target is CC immune.

Drawback #4 - The Too Expensive Single-Target Ultimate
With the exception of Ballista (which allows the user to continue using other attacks and stack them while the ultimate fires at the enemy) the Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage morphs appear to be far too expensive compared to the other most comparable single-target ultimate in the game, Soul Strike. Unlike Soul Strike, Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage have to deal with a frequently used, additional counter in that they can be dodged by the enemy. Soul Strike is also available with every weapon and every build, while Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage both require the bow to be equipped.

Improvement Suggestion - Reduce the costs of Rapid Fire to 100, and Toxic Barrage to 125.

@ZOS_Holden I see you collecting feedback and inspiring the community. This post is for you, buddy!

It's awesome to see other players concerned with Archer play and improving it, two thumbs up! That said there are some problems I see with your suggestions.

1. First off Major Brutality, while I know virtually every stam user is clamoring for access outside of their class lines, Major Brutality access is not an issue for PVE specifically. PVE players get this buff from potions, although there could be an argument that simply because it is the meta does not mean it should be that way.

For PVP the argument is stronger although there are many ways to get around this, and I think overall ZOS has limited access on purpose to avoid over buffing specific class combinations. I like the idea of the Monster set, but I don't think it will change much for bow/bow in PVE, while I think it will have better but still relatively minimal impact in PVP.

Also Igneous Weapon is in no way efficient, if you use any other magicka skill you will run into magicka sustain issues quite quickly.

2. I don't like the 5/5/1 dynamic either, I don't see it as a primary problem as magicka has the same issues and I also don't see it changing.

3. They would have to more than halve that heal to keep Draining Shot from being spammed, maybe 1/4 would work. Draining Shot should have a longer range, doesn't need 28m, but 15-20m would be a welcome change. Also if we keep Draining Shot reflectable and dodgeable then it really wouldn't be too unfair for it to be unblockable, it would also line up then with other Draining Shot mechanics from NPC's, VDSA anyone?

4. The other morphs are lackluster and making them cheaper wouldn't fix the issue of dropping Hawk Eye stacks while firing them, or being stuck on the bar that they are used on. Honestly I really wish they would swap Snipe and Rapid Fire and rework both. Snipe should feel more powerful without being able to be spammed, something similar to Taking Aim from NPC's, and Rapid Fire would work well to be a ranged skill similar to Rapid Strikes or Jabs. The channel time would have to be short though in order to get in light attacks.

Toc de Malsvi · February 2018

Now as to important points related to the thread but not directed at the thread.

Hawk Eye should be buffed as long as we have a CP system, in no CP Hawk Eye is balanced and performs admirably. In CP Hawk Eye is diminished and weak. One of the best ways of doing this without buffing melee is to decrease Hawk Eye's gain, but increase stacks. Which ties into the next point.

For trials survival is not really a primary issue, sure it is a little weaker, but you are still very capable of surviving. The primary issue is that there is virtually no reason to bring an Archer over any other stam setup. Giving the bow line access to a unique debuff would encourage the use of bows, nothing huge, something along the lines of 5% more damage taken to targets.

My suggestion is to change Hawk Eye to allow it to stack to 10, change the percent damage gained per stack to 3%, and add a 0.5% damage taken to targets hit by light attacks per stack as a target debuff. This improves Hawkeye Eye by 5% for bow/bow, gives bow's a unique buff which encourages bringing an Archer, and does not improve melee performance.

Toc de Malsvi · February 2018

Hollery wrote: »

The blade cloak effect needs to be moved under medium armor passives

I think this would be a really nice quality of life change for all medium builds, while not having a huge impact on the balance as a whole.

GrumpyDuckling · February 2018

DDuke wrote: »

I 100% agree with points 1-3 & I'd like to add a couple more (PvP specific):
Lack of a viable ranged CC. The only class with access to a decent stamina ranged CC is Templar (Binding Javelin), rest of the classes don't have good options. Solution: Scatter Shot range needs to be increased significantly from the current 10m, you can't expect bow builds to run up to targets' melee range in order to CC them - that's ridiculous.

Passives that discourage you from slotting class skills. There's no reason why Long Shots for instance shouldn't apply to ranged stamina class skills (Relentless Focus, Cutting Dive, Binding Javelin).

On PTS, Acid Spray/Bombard are still dodgeable, contrary to most other AoE abilities - changing them to undodgeable would help bow immensely vs dodge rollers (against whom bow suffers outside gank scenarios).

Regarding your point 4 though - Ballista is an extremely powerful ultimate when used properly, I'm a bit scared of what'd happen if it became cheaper.

What they could do is make the other channeled morph cheaper though (and undodgeable) to bring it in line with Soul Assault.

Ballista still stays the same (175 cost). Only Rapid Fire (unmorphed version for 100) and Toxic Barrage (125) would be cheaper. Maybe you just misread that part.

jaws343 · February 2018

I don't think the monster set option would be viable for a bow/bow build anyways. I have found them to be most effective when having 2 sets active at a time and running single set bows like asylum and masters. You cannot fit a monster set in there and not lose a 5 piece set.

I think the biggest issue with bow/bow viability (in PVP) is that every single target ability is dodgeable. At least running a warden bow/bow you could use the birds as a last resort. With that being made dodgeable, it will become extremely difficult to do any damage to certain classes on a bow/bow build.

Toc de Malsvi · February 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't think the monster set option would be viable for a bow/bow build anyways. I have found them to be most effective when having 2 sets active at a time and running single set bows like asylum and masters. You cannot fit a monster set in there and not lose a 5 piece set.

I think the biggest issue with bow/bow viability (in PVP) is that every single target ability is dodgeable. At least running a warden bow/bow you could use the birds as a last resort. With that being made dodgeable, it will become extremely difficult to do any damage to certain classes on a bow/bow build.

You would just run Agility, perhaps Eagle Eye if you are comfortable with your sustain. I used to run Eagle Eye on my Sorc in PVP, it performed pretty well, definitely helped out with landing Draining Shot.

exiars10 · February 2018

As a bow/bow user, I welcome this thread.

The bow is the only weapon in the game (except the defensive-focused one hand and shield) that has to rely on either another weapon or a class-based skill to acquire a key offensive buff (major brutality).

It's not like (Nightblade) DW users use Hidden Blade anyway...

Ballista

Pretty good ultimate in PvE.
Pretty "good" escape tool in PvP which is sad how the same ability is used drastically different...

JiKama · February 2018

I use a Bow/Bow PvE stamblade and do just fine

. Although they could use some love in the Heavy Attack department. I use SilverShards for trash mobs and snipe for single target. Somehow I pull higher DPS on a target dummy with Bow/Bow than with Dw/Bow. I guess the rotation/RelentlessFocus is easier to manage for me With Bow/Bow XD

JiKama · February 2018

I think a Fighters Guild ability should grant Major Brutality though. It could open some options for builds and help out my Bow/Bow Khajiiti. Plus save me some gold so I dont have to buy them darn Yellow pots.

DDuke · February 2018

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I 100% agree with points 1-3 & I'd like to add a couple more (PvP specific):
Lack of a viable ranged CC. The only class with access to a decent stamina ranged CC is Templar (Binding Javelin), rest of the classes don't have good options. Solution: Scatter Shot range needs to be increased significantly from the current 10m, you can't expect bow builds to run up to targets' melee range in order to CC them - that's ridiculous.

Passives that discourage you from slotting class skills. There's no reason why Long Shots for instance shouldn't apply to ranged stamina class skills (Relentless Focus, Cutting Dive, Binding Javelin).

On PTS, Acid Spray/Bombard are still dodgeable, contrary to most other AoE abilities - changing them to undodgeable would help bow immensely vs dodge rollers (against whom bow suffers outside gank scenarios).

Regarding your point 4 though - Ballista is an extremely powerful ultimate when used properly, I'm a bit scared of what'd happen if it became cheaper.

What they could do is make the other channeled morph cheaper though (and undodgeable) to bring it in line with Soul Assault.

Ballista still stays the same (175 cost). Only Rapid Fire (unmorphed version for 100) and Toxic Barrage (125) would be cheaper. Maybe you just misread that part.

Oh, you're right... sorry, it's been a long day

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't think the monster set option would be viable for a bow/bow build anyways. I have found them to be most effective when having 2 sets active at a time and running single set bows like asylum and masters. You cannot fit a monster set in there and not lose a 5 piece set.

I think the biggest issue with bow/bow viability (in PVP) is that every single target ability is dodgeable. At least running a warden bow/bow you could use the birds as a last resort. With that being made dodgeable, it will become extremely difficult to do any damage to certain classes on a bow/bow build.

So I actually just tested out 5x Marksman 5x Morag 1x Asylum vs 5x Marksman 3x Agi 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena, and honestly I was a bit surprised to see the Agility setup outperform Morag.

I was getting 37 557 semi-buffed (Major Brutality, Minor Berserk) Lethal crits on dummy with Morag and 38 020 crits with Agi+monster sets. With full buffs, 48 620 crits with Morag & 49 005 crits with Agi+monster sets.

So for solo play, I think 3x Agi+Kena+Kra'gh is actually better overall (though it'll be a bit weaker vs dmg shields than 5x Morag). If you're playing with other bow user(s) however, it would be optimal for one person atleast to wear Morag Tong.

ZOS_Holden · February 2018

Hi there @GrumpyDuckling!

Thanks so much for your feedback! We truly appreciate your feedback and that you took the time to include a suggested solution for each drawback. As a side note, great pun!

While we can't guarantee your feedback and ideas will be used, they are the sort of thing we can keep in mind when working on future updates.

Thanks again, please don't hesitate to share any other feedback or suggestions you may have in the future, we always love to read them!

IZZEFlameLash · February 2018

lnsane wrote: »

xbobx wrote: »

bows were designed as secondary weapons/utility.

This guy respectfully disagrees.

To do any of that with actual warbow with higher poundage, not low pound bow, you would basically have to be made up of very large muscle or your mobility made entirely by different set of legs, a.k.a horse. Please, stop citing this vid as something actually viable unless you want bow damage nerfed to the ground to illustrate the low poundage trick shot side of things. As per "realistic" adjustments.

exiars10 · June 2018

Let us appreciate that ZOS buffed and improved both directly and indirectly archer playstyle in Summerset.

Congrats @GrumpyDuckling as:

Drawback #2 - Bow Occupies Both Weapon Slots
...
Improvement Suggestion - Allow the bow to count as 2 weapons instead of occupying both slots as 1 item. Bow + Arrows/Quiver

Somebody loled at that suggestion, no?

And they did something for Bow ultimate:

Bow

Rapid Fire: This ability and the Toxic Barrage morph now grant you crowd control immunity while you are channeling them.
Developer Comments:
This puts these abilities more in line with the Soul Strike ability, which provides similar protections. We don’t want players to activate an Ultimate and have it easily and immediately negated.

This is very good improvement.