Kudos to ZOS for the success of changing shards and orbs.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

All other classes already have interesting skills that can be used by healers. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing, with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. The thing is, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.

"You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage"
-> Again. Doesn't work. People still go for stam sustain 99% of the time.

"You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support."
-> You misunderstood what I said. Keeping stam support exclusive to Templar is like making taunt exclusive to DKs. And as you said, DKs don't need taunt to be better tanks, they are already better tanks and with that, Templars don't need stam support to be better healers, they are already better healers.

"If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best."
-> Again, there's nothing you can give other classes to make them generally accepted unless you give them stam support. You have to give them stam support, there's no way around it, there's nothing else you can give them. If stam support is exclusive to Templar, there's no decision to be made, always pick Templar healers.

"Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids."
---> Again, that wasn't a nerf, that was a rework, you give other classes something that shouldn't be exclusive to Templar.
Keeping stam support exclusively to Templar is what dumbed the game down, not the other way around.

"You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart")."
-> Sorc healer 101, Command Pet + Right Click, and your pet will not die, ever.
It doesn't matter how many slots pet takes, your statement that Templar is the only class with burst heal is still incorrect.

I give up. It seems utterly pointless to argue with you.

Actually it's pointless to argue with you. I provide facts and logics, all you do is "MUH MUH I SAY SO SO IT'S SO SO".

But hey you know everything better so go a head and prove to the world pets do not die or bug out in trial or dungeons.

Again, twilight matriarch does not die or bugs out if you Command Pet + Right Click, every sorc healer knows that it's basic knowledge, there's nothing to prove.
Damage pets in the other hand, is different, you can't Command Pet + Right Click because that way your pets can't deal damage, so your pets will die often and is more likely to bug out.

I am all for making other classes more interesting for support roles like tank or healer but nerfing on class to make other classes relatively to that class better is not a good solution in my opinion.

1) For the 99th time, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.
2) Game Balance 101: no nerf only buff is terrible because it introduces power creep. Sometimes a nerf is needed and sometimes a buff is needed. Not that it is related, because this is a needed rework not just a nerf, but it's something has to be said.

It will just end in all classes being some generic copy of each other with absolutely no class identity.

Except in this case it doesn't, every class is still unique in his own way. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. Warden can provide a lot of heals but it requires a higher skill cap because warden healer is much more complicated to play. Templar is your A+ healer, easy to play, straight forward, has anything you need and so far is the most efficient at healing.
Stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support. Making stam support exclusive to Templar is like making Taunt exclusive to DK why is it so hard for you understand you N'wah?

Maybe they nerf dk tanks next and remove anyway of getting stam back while and till 5 sec after block, remove ing shield and selfhealing to make other class tanks better. Would you also call it a great change to make other tank classes more viable?

Uhm because there's currently no way for other classes to get stam back? NO LOL. Sorc has Dark Exchange, NB has Siphoning Strikes, Warden has Bull Netch. Because there's currently no way for other class to have shield? NO LOL, Templar has Sun Shield, Sorc has Ward, Warden has Crystallized Shield and Living Vines, plus every class has Bone Shield. Because there's currently no way for other class to have self heal? NO LOL. Templar has BOL, Sorc has Pet, NB has Sap Essence and Warden has Arctic Wind and everyone has access to Vigor.

Also there is nothing that triggers me more than calling the orb nerf a good thing. The way orbs worked before morrowind was a way better for group play.

There is nothing that triggers me more than people who refuse to give other classes a way to provide stamina support, while giving other classes a way to provide stamina support to the group is the only way to make non-Templar healers accepted in PvE content. Fluffy N'wah.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Mureel wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

I don't mind it much but HEALER SPOTS are already limited - I don't see why any class SHOULD heal unless 1/3 your skills are made for it.

It often makes me think people picked DPS classes, sucked at DPS, and decided to 'JUST' be a healer. Then they suck at that too.

Sorta off topic because templars can be as bad as anyone:
I go to pugs a LOT on my Mag Sorc and lol. I've never met an exceptionally good healer (as in does anything but spam mutagen and very slim maybe some orbs and if Templar ritual) yet - pugs are pugs but still, how bad do you have to be to refuse to use Ele Drain and Combat Prayer? Prettty fkn bad if you ask me.

I know there are exceptions, but I haven't met them. Most of them act like you're asking to bone their husbands if you say: Do you use ele drain?

Healer spots are limited, by that you mean vet trials?
If you look at the composition, in trial you need 2 healers, 1 tank, 1 offtank (sometimes), then 8 DPS. So the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 4 DPS. But in dungeons, we are talking about 1 tank, 2 DPS, and 1 healer, so the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 2 DPS. You clearly can see why there seem to be an abundance of healers in trials while there are too many DPS in dungeons.

And I don't see why any specific class can't heal when clearly this game is designed so that you can heal as any class.

Mureel · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

I don't mind it much but HEALER SPOTS are already limited - I don't see why any class SHOULD heal unless 1/3 your skills are made for it.

It often makes me think people picked DPS classes, sucked at DPS, and decided to 'JUST' be a healer. Then they suck at that too.

Sorta off topic because templars can be as bad as anyone:
I go to pugs a LOT on my Mag Sorc and lol. I've never met an exceptionally good healer (as in does anything but spam mutagen and very slim maybe some orbs and if Templar ritual) yet - pugs are pugs but still, how bad do you have to be to refuse to use Ele Drain and Combat Prayer? Prettty fkn bad if you ask me.

I know there are exceptions, but I haven't met them. Most of them act like you're asking to bone their husbands if you say: Do you use ele drain?

Healer spots are limited, by that you mean vet trials?
If you look at the composition, in trial you need 2 healers, 1 tank, 1 offtank (sometimes), then 8 DPS. So the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 4 DPS. But in dungeons, we are talking about 1 tank, 2 DPS, and 1 healer, so the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 2 DPS. You clearly can see why there seem to be an abundance of healers in trials while there are too many DPS in dungeons.

And I don't see why any specific class can't heal when clearly this game is designed so that you can heal as any class.

You don't even actually read what other people say? I can count, but thanks.

It didn't USED TO BE designed that way when people chose to be templars if they wanted to be healers because of healing skill tree = 1/3 templar skills.

Everyone being a big baby because they didn't want to level an alt because it was actually hard back then, is why templar got nerfed so hard - to bring it in line with people using a flappy bird and resto skills - over the (previously, and now nerfed to the point that it's ruined) stronger class skills.

Everything was changed to suit the 'but all classes should get to heaaaaalll!' thing.

Ruined my class and I will never stop being annoyed by that when I think too much about it.

Zer0oo · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

All other classes already have interesting skills that can be used by healers. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing, with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. The thing is, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.

"You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage"
-> Again. Doesn't work. People still go for stam sustain 99% of the time.

"You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support."
-> You misunderstood what I said. Keeping stam support exclusive to Templar is like making taunt exclusive to DKs. And as you said, DKs don't need taunt to be better tanks, they are already better tanks and with that, Templars don't need stam support to be better healers, they are already better healers.

"If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best."
-> Again, there's nothing you can give other classes to make them generally accepted unless you give them stam support. You have to give them stam support, there's no way around it, there's nothing else you can give them. If stam support is exclusive to Templar, there's no decision to be made, always pick Templar healers.

"Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids."
---> Again, that wasn't a nerf, that was a rework, you give other classes something that shouldn't be exclusive to Templar.
Keeping stam support exclusively to Templar is what dumbed the game down, not the other way around.

"You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart")."
-> Sorc healer 101, Command Pet + Right Click, and your pet will not die, ever.
It doesn't matter how many slots pet takes, your statement that Templar is the only class with burst heal is still incorrect.

I give up. It seems utterly pointless to argue with you.

Actually it's pointless to argue with you. I provide facts and logics, all you do is "MUH MUH I SAY SO SO IT'S SO SO".

But hey you know everything better so go a head and prove to the world pets do not die or bug out in trial or dungeons.

Again, twilight matriarch does not die or bugs out if you Command Pet + Right Click, every sorc healer knows that it's basic knowledge, there's nothing to prove.
Damage pets in the other hand, is different, you can't Command Pet + Right Click because that way your pets can't deal damage, so your pets will die often and is more likely to bug out.

I am all for making other classes more interesting for support roles like tank or healer but nerfing on class to make other classes relatively to that class better is not a good solution in my opinion.

1) For the 99th time, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.
2) Game Balance 101: no nerf only buff is terrible because it introduces power creep. Sometimes a nerf is needed and sometimes a buff is needed. Not that it is related, because this is a needed rework not just a nerf, but it's something has to be said.

It will just end in all classes being some generic copy of each other with absolutely no class identity.

Except in this case it doesn't, every class is still unique in his own way. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. Warden can provide a lot of heals but it requires a higher skill cap because warden healer is much more complicated to play. Templar is your A+ healer, easy to play, straight forward, has anything you need and so far is the most efficient at healing.
Stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support. Making stam support exclusive to Templar is like making Taunt exclusive to DK why is it so hard for you understand you N'wah?

Maybe they nerf dk tanks next and remove anyway of getting stam back while and till 5 sec after block, remove ing shield and selfhealing to make other class tanks better. Would you also call it a great change to make other tank classes more viable?

Uhm because there's currently no way for other classes to get stam back? NO LOL. Sorc has Dark Exchange, NB has Siphoning Strikes, Warden has Bull Netch. Because there's currently no way for other class to have shield? NO LOL, Templar has Sun Shield, Sorc has Ward, Warden has Crystallized Shield and Living Vines, plus every class has Bone Shield. Because there's currently no way for other class to have self heal? NO LOL. Templar has BOL, Sorc has Pet, NB has Sap Essence and Warden has Arctic Wind and everyone has access to Vigor.

Also there is nothing that triggers me more than calling the orb nerf a good thing. The way orbs worked before morrowind was a way better for group play.

There is nothing that triggers me more than people who refuse to give other classes a way to provide stamina support, while giving other classes a way to provide stamina support to the group is the only way to make non-Templar healers accepted in PvE content. Fluffy N'wah.

Just stop please. You really do not get what i was trying to say. I have healed with my sorc before the spear nerf (even before the pet heal) and it was no problem in dungeons and i know exactly that pets can and will die to certain mechanics. But hey you seem to be a sorc heal expert so i must be wrong. I also have tanked without stam support(aka 3 dd mofit farm runs) and it was fine. I have dpsed on stam dd in every trial and i did not really need any support(afk heavy attack rotation). Stam support is nice but it is not as necessary as a taunt.

Do you know how awesome the orbs where in trials before the morrowind nerf?

For the rest: Are you by any chance ESO daily?

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2018

An exciting topic from almost a year ago. How new and fresh.

More on topic, yes all the classes are slowly becoming the same. It is up to each person to decide if they see this as a good thing or not.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

josiahva wrote: »

The OP's premise is laughable. People have been healing and tanking on other classes since the game was released without issue. I have NEVER kicked a healer or a tank for not being a specific class. As a tank, I don't rely on shards...why would I when a heavy attack restores just as much? If its there...great, if not...I don't care. The ONLY templar healer skill that is better than other classes if I am tanking is ritual..and that is solely situational for the purify effect, for instance...fighting Velidreth, I like having the purify available to get rid of her poison, I can do without it, but for that fight in particular its better with it. On the other hand...in that particular fight a nightblade healer outperforms a templar healer overall(aside from the purify) because they do more off-DPS and the arena is small. The morrowinf changes had NOTHING to do with less played classes being more acceptable. People play DK tanks and Templar healers not because they are forced to, but because they are the best choices for those roles. I play sorc tanks, and warden tanks, and templar tanks, and nightblade tanks...but DK still does the job best, and so that is the one I play most often. I swap to my sorc tank when I want a tank with more mobility and that is just more fun to play...I swap to my templar tank(or warden tank) when I want a tank that can off-heal well enough not to need a healer for the run, but for a run that needs a dedicated tank...DK is still king...just like templar is still king for a dedicated healer.

You have enough food doesn't mean there's no starvation in the world.
You have never kicked a healer or a tank for not being a specific class doesn't mean no one has done it.
You don't rely on shards doesn't mean 99% of the playerbase don't rely on shards.

Cleanse is not even something unique to Templar, every class can cleanse with the PvP cleanse.

Morrowind changes have everything to do with non-Templar healers being more acceptable. Before the Morrowind changes, Templar is the only class that can provide stamina for the group, and if you do a quick forum search, non-Templar healers were turned down because they don't have access to a way to provide stamina support to the group. Now that that's not the case anymore, there's nothing holding you back from playing a sorc healer or a NB healer in non-competitve PvE content.

No one says anything about DK is not the king in PvE tanking or Templar is not the king in PvE healing, I wrote very clearly in the first post "I still suggest everyone to go meta, but if you don't want to, go ahead there's nothing holding you back from doing everything that is not competitive raiding."

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Mureel wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

I don't mind it much but HEALER SPOTS are already limited - I don't see why any class SHOULD heal unless 1/3 your skills are made for it.

It often makes me think people picked DPS classes, sucked at DPS, and decided to 'JUST' be a healer. Then they suck at that too.

Sorta off topic because templars can be as bad as anyone:
I go to pugs a LOT on my Mag Sorc and lol. I've never met an exceptionally good healer (as in does anything but spam mutagen and very slim maybe some orbs and if Templar ritual) yet - pugs are pugs but still, how bad do you have to be to refuse to use Ele Drain and Combat Prayer? Prettty fkn bad if you ask me.

I know there are exceptions, but I haven't met them. Most of them act like you're asking to bone their husbands if you say: Do you use ele drain?

Healer spots are limited, by that you mean vet trials?
If you look at the composition, in trial you need 2 healers, 1 tank, 1 offtank (sometimes), then 8 DPS. So the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 4 DPS. But in dungeons, we are talking about 1 tank, 2 DPS, and 1 healer, so the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 2 DPS. You clearly can see why there seem to be an abundance of healers in trials while there are too many DPS in dungeons.

And I don't see why any specific class can't heal when clearly this game is designed so that you can heal as any class.

You don't even actually read what other people say? I can count, but thanks.

It didn't USED TO BE designed that way when people chose to be templars if they wanted to be healers because of healing skill tree = 1/3 templar skills.

Everyone being a big baby because they didn't want to level an alt because it was actually hard back then, is why templar got nerfed so hard - to bring it in line with people using a flappy bird and resto skills - over the (previously, and now nerfed to the point that it's ruined) stronger class skills.

Everything was changed to suit the 'but all classes should get to heaaaaalll!' thing.

Ruined my class and I will never stop being annoyed by that when I think too much about it.

Oh you can call people who don't want to level alts "big babies" all you like, just know that they make up the majority of the playerbase and they are still not going to make alts even if you call them with worse words.

'but all classes should get to heaaaaalll!' thing is a good thing. Everyone should get to heal is a thing of the Elder Scrolls franchise, it's what makes this game unique instead just another WoW clone, and it's what ZOS is choosing to do.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

All other classes already have interesting skills that can be used by healers. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing, with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. The thing is, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.

"You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage"
-> Again. Doesn't work. People still go for stam sustain 99% of the time.

"You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support."
-> You misunderstood what I said. Keeping stam support exclusive to Templar is like making taunt exclusive to DKs. And as you said, DKs don't need taunt to be better tanks, they are already better tanks and with that, Templars don't need stam support to be better healers, they are already better healers.

"If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best."
-> Again, there's nothing you can give other classes to make them generally accepted unless you give them stam support. You have to give them stam support, there's no way around it, there's nothing else you can give them. If stam support is exclusive to Templar, there's no decision to be made, always pick Templar healers.

"Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids."
---> Again, that wasn't a nerf, that was a rework, you give other classes something that shouldn't be exclusive to Templar.
Keeping stam support exclusively to Templar is what dumbed the game down, not the other way around.

"You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart")."
-> Sorc healer 101, Command Pet + Right Click, and your pet will not die, ever.
It doesn't matter how many slots pet takes, your statement that Templar is the only class with burst heal is still incorrect.

I give up. It seems utterly pointless to argue with you.

Actually it's pointless to argue with you. I provide facts and logics, all you do is "MUH MUH I SAY SO SO IT'S SO SO".

But hey you know everything better so go a head and prove to the world pets do not die or bug out in trial or dungeons.

Again, twilight matriarch does not die or bugs out if you Command Pet + Right Click, every sorc healer knows that it's basic knowledge, there's nothing to prove.
Damage pets in the other hand, is different, you can't Command Pet + Right Click because that way your pets can't deal damage, so your pets will die often and is more likely to bug out.

I am all for making other classes more interesting for support roles like tank or healer but nerfing on class to make other classes relatively to that class better is not a good solution in my opinion.

1) For the 99th time, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.
2) Game Balance 101: no nerf only buff is terrible because it introduces power creep. Sometimes a nerf is needed and sometimes a buff is needed. Not that it is related, because this is a needed rework not just a nerf, but it's something has to be said.

It will just end in all classes being some generic copy of each other with absolutely no class identity.

Except in this case it doesn't, every class is still unique in his own way. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. Warden can provide a lot of heals but it requires a higher skill cap because warden healer is much more complicated to play. Templar is your A+ healer, easy to play, straight forward, has anything you need and so far is the most efficient at healing.
Stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support. Making stam support exclusive to Templar is like making Taunt exclusive to DK why is it so hard for you understand you N'wah?

Maybe they nerf dk tanks next and remove anyway of getting stam back while and till 5 sec after block, remove ing shield and selfhealing to make other class tanks better. Would you also call it a great change to make other tank classes more viable?

Uhm because there's currently no way for other classes to get stam back? NO LOL. Sorc has Dark Exchange, NB has Siphoning Strikes, Warden has Bull Netch. Because there's currently no way for other class to have shield? NO LOL, Templar has Sun Shield, Sorc has Ward, Warden has Crystallized Shield and Living Vines, plus every class has Bone Shield. Because there's currently no way for other class to have self heal? NO LOL. Templar has BOL, Sorc has Pet, NB has Sap Essence and Warden has Arctic Wind and everyone has access to Vigor.

Also there is nothing that triggers me more than calling the orb nerf a good thing. The way orbs worked before morrowind was a way better for group play.

There is nothing that triggers me more than people who refuse to give other classes a way to provide stamina support, while giving other classes a way to provide stamina support to the group is the only way to make non-Templar healers accepted in PvE content. Fluffy N'wah.

Just stop please. You really do not get what i was trying to say. I have healed with my sorc before the spear nerf (even before the pet heal) and it was no problem in dungeons and i know exactly that pets can and will die to certain mechanics. But hey you seem to be a sorc heal expert so i must be wrong. I also have tanked without stam support(aka 3 dd mofit farm runs) and it was fine. I have dpsed on stam dd in every trial and i did not really need any support(afk heavy attack rotation). Stam support is nice but it is not as necessary as a taunt.

Do you know how awesome the orbs where in trials before the morrowind nerf?

For the rest: Are you by any chance ESO daily?

This is where you are wrong. You can tank without shard, I can tank without shard, but it doesn't mean 99% of the playerbase can tank without shard and it is a matter of fact that non-Templar healers were rejected because they couldn't provide stam support.

It is almost as necessary as a taunt, you are rejected for not having taunt and you were rejected for not having shard, sure you can clear do dungeons without taunt, you can clear dungeons without shard, it doesn't mean you are not rejected for not having taunt or shard.

We are talking about the fact that ZOS gave non-Templar healers a way to restores stamina to the group, that's the whole point of the topic, please stick to it.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

An exciting topic from almost a year ago. How new and fresh.

More on topic, yes all the classes are slowly becoming the same. It is up to each person to decide if they see this as a good thing or not.

Except for the fact that this is false.

It's like making taunt exclusive to DK, and then when people say give other classes taunt back, tell them that giving them taunt back will make all clases become the same.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

An exciting topic from almost a year ago. How new and fresh.

More on topic, yes all the classes are slowly becoming the same. It is up to each person to decide if they see this as a good thing or not.

Except for the fact that this is false.

It's like making taunt exclusive to DK, and then when people say give other classes taunt back, tell them that giving them taunt back will make all clases become the same.

Which is false? The changes you are thanking them for came out in morrowind. That was June 6. 8 months ago. Close enough for me to feel that almost a year isn’t crazy talk.

That classes aren’t slowly becoming the same? This very thank you thread is based around a change to make classes more similar so one would not be favored over the others. I mean you can make up all the phony examples you want, it Is kind of cute I guess, but it doesn’t change what was done, and how.

Or that people shouldn’t decide for themselves? I don’t really have a counter for that because of that is your arguement, this is pointless.

You can agree or disagree, with the changes. You obviously agree with them, For what many would say are very valid reasons. But that doesn’t make what I wrote false.

exeeter702 · February 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

I think it’s still not enough. What would be good is rebalance night blade and warden skills, so nb healer and warden tank have a place in competitive pve. Nb soul siphon passive gain heal % should be changed to a higher number but only work for aoe heal, so nb will have bigger healing spring number than templar healer but lack burst heal. And warden tree should be nerfed in heal amount, scale to max health, but given a lower cost (Very high auto defence uptime), so warden tank can have more survivability than dk tank but lack utility.

This is the main problem... there are too many people that play this game that do not know the finer details when it comes to this subject.

You should understand that NB healers are entirely end game pve viable. Nb HPS is significant and has always been on par with templar. Giving them minor mending last patcglh actually pushed them higher than templars percentage wise. The last thing a nb needs is increased healing throughput.

Yes it does, the nb need a significant healing output advantage to cover the lack of burst heal, on par is not good enough.

With all due respect, this statement suggests to me that you may be very unfamilair with exaclty how a nb healer functions and how effective they are on live.

As someone who regularly primary heals vet hof and mol as NB of which never fells like im having to play at 3 times the level of a templar healer, and most importantly has done his due diligence on the theory crafting of healing potential between all 4 orginal classes since beta, i find the suggestion that nb needs higher HPS to compensate for lack of "burst healing" a bit silly, especially as most competent templar healers in comfortable trial groups rarely slot BOL for the exception of a handfull of encounters.

exeeter702 · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

All other classes already have interesting skills that can be used by healers. Sorc has nice burst heal (pet), ward (minor intellect), helps with the damage with implosion and more slots for utilities with a 3rd bar. DK provides nice group utilities like igneous shield, group weapon/spell power buff and Engulfing Flames. NB deals damage while healing, with sap essence, refreshing parth and healthy offering. The thing is, stam support is what healers have to provide for the tanks, just like how taunt is what tanks have to provide, there's nothing you can add to make non-Templar healers generally acceptable in PvE content without giving them stam support.

"You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage"
-> Again. Doesn't work. People still go for stam sustain 99% of the time.

"You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support."
-> You misunderstood what I said. Keeping stam support exclusive to Templar is like making taunt exclusive to DKs. And as you said, DKs don't need taunt to be better tanks, they are already better tanks and with that, Templars don't need stam support to be better healers, they are already better healers.

"If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best."
-> Again, there's nothing you can give other classes to make them generally accepted unless you give them stam support. You have to give them stam support, there's no way around it, there's nothing else you can give them. If stam support is exclusive to Templar, there's no decision to be made, always pick Templar healers.

"Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids."
---> Again, that wasn't a nerf, that was a rework, you give other classes something that shouldn't be exclusive to Templar.
Keeping stam support exclusively to Templar is what dumbed the game down, not the other way around.

"You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart")."
-> Sorc healer 101, Command Pet + Right Click, and your pet will not die, ever.
It doesn't matter how many slots pet takes, your statement that Templar is the only class with burst heal is still incorrect.

I give up. It seems utterly pointless to argue with you.
But hey you know everything better so go a head and prove to the world pets do not die or bug out in trial or dungeons.

I am all for making other classes more interesting for support roles like tank or healer but nerfing on class to make other classes relatively to that class better is not a good solution in my opinion. It will just end in all classes being some generic copy of each other with absolutely no class identity.
Maybe they nerf dk tanks next and remove anyway of getting stam back while and till 5 sec after block, remove ing shield and selfhealing to make other class tanks better. Would you also call it a great change to make other tank classes more viable?

Also there is nothing that triggers me more than calling the orb nerf a good thing. The way orbs worked before morrowind was a way better for group play.

I find your belief that the classes come close to becoming generic copies of one another a bit sensational tbh. Shards itslef as far as resource return is concerned was not nerfed for templar specifically. And the repentance nerf was collateral damage via the sweeping changes made to overall sustain in the morrowind patch.

Stamina utility is not what defines the identity of a templar any more than a taunt would define the identity of a DK. This is the important distinction. Orbs and shards have VERY different functions which is part of what creates a unique identity for templar healers. Their shards are far more accurate and quick, great for tanks and off tanks. But its one synergy per cast where as orbs are slower but can covet a much larger pool of players in application which allows the healer a larger window of healing while the orbs are consumed where the templar had to suspend healing for longer if they want to reach the same amount of players with shards.

This is the dynamic that zos wants... different was each class approaches a given element to a role, analogues to certain skill offerings which leads to different ways to approach and achieve the same end results. Not giving certain classes a complete vice grip on a critical role tool. This entire philosophy exists in eso and is not just about shards vs orbs.

exeeter702 · February 2018

Mureel wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

I don't mind it much but HEALER SPOTS are already limited - I don't see why any class SHOULD heal unless 1/3 your skills are made for it.

It often makes me think people picked DPS classes, sucked at DPS, and decided to 'JUST' be a healer. Then they suck at that too.

Sorta off topic because templars can be as bad as anyone:
I go to pugs a LOT on my Mag Sorc and lol. I've never met an exceptionally good healer (as in does anything but spam mutagen and very slim maybe some orbs and if Templar ritual) yet - pugs are pugs but still, how bad do you have to be to refuse to use Ele Drain and Combat Prayer? Prettty fkn bad if you ask me.

I know there are exceptions, but I haven't met them. Most of them act like you're asking to bone their husbands if you say: Do you use ele drain?

Healer spots are limited, by that you mean vet trials?
If you look at the composition, in trial you need 2 healers, 1 tank, 1 offtank (sometimes), then 8 DPS. So the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 4 DPS. But in dungeons, we are talking about 1 tank, 2 DPS, and 1 healer, so the ratio is 1 tank : 1 healer : 2 DPS. You clearly can see why there seem to be an abundance of healers in trials while there are too many DPS in dungeons.

And I don't see why any specific class can't heal when clearly this game is designed so that you can heal as any class.

You don't even actually read what other people say? I can count, but thanks.

It didn't USED TO BE designed that way when people chose to be templars if they wanted to be healers because of healing skill tree = 1/3 templar skills.

Everyone being a big baby because they didn't want to level an alt because it was actually hard back then, is why templar got nerfed so hard - to bring it in line with people using a flappy bird and resto skills - over the (previously, and now nerfed to the point that it's ruined) stronger class skills.

Everything was changed to suit the 'but all classes should get to heaaaaalll!' thing.

Ruined my class and I will never stop being annoyed by that when I think too much about it.

This was never the case since this games inception. Class skills versus universal skills is a non argument since there are plenty of parralells in healing options and such class skills are specifically weighted with non class skill access in mind. A templar is not 1/3 healing via class skills. It has a skill line called restoring light that contains key tanking skills just as much as healing tools, half of which have entirely comparable resto staff alternatives. Or do you believe resto staff was created exclusivley for templars to reinforce their "pre determined" pve end game role? None of this matters since zos has been improving non templar healers for over 2 years now, but rest assured SnB and resto staff skill lines among others were intentionally placed into the game to augment and assist every class that wanted to tank or heal since the beging of this games life span.

QuebraRegra · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

This change killed the uniqueness of the templer class and did just give rise to other problems (tanks do need a bigger stam than mag pool or they get not stam, reduction of synergies,...). Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy.

They just could have given other classes another support skill that would make them on-par with mag templer so you would think about do you want the sustain support of templer or maybe better an offensive support of another class but nerfing things is just easier.

Also templers will always be the best (for endgame) healer as long as they are the only class with a spammable smart burst heal. It makes healing a lot easier and can it can prevent a lot of deaths in trials when they grp is not as stacked or when something goes wrong.

There's no way to make non-Templar healers close to Templar healers in PvE content without giving them an ability to provide stam support. Giving them "an offensive support"? Doesn't work. You always want a sustain support 99% of the time in PvE and there's no way around it. Non-Templar healers need to be able to provide resources to be accepted in PvE content of this game. There's no way around it. No way around it.

What, how is that a nerf, you give other classes an ability to provide stamina to the group, it's a rework. If you think "giving stamina back to the group" should be something unique to Templar, then make taunt exclusive to DK and say taunt is something unique to DK.

Templar healer's uniqueness is that it is easy to play, straight forwards, and extremely efficient. Stamina support as a concept alone is too OP to be something exclusive to Templar. You either remove stamina support all together from the game, or give it to other classes, otherwise Templar will always be the only accepted healer.

Btw, sorc also has spammable smart burst heal, it's twilight matriarch. And i have no problem with Templar being the best healer. Templar being the only healer is a huge problem, but Templar being the best healer is completely fine.

Yes being able to give stam back to the group was op but why did no other class have another interesting support skill for healers?
You could have given a sorc for example a skill that provides multibel group members minor force. Now you would have to decide templer for sustain and sorc for more damage. Or one templer and one sorc healer. You do not need to make taunt exclusive for Dks to make them better tanks they already have shields for the whole group but they decided to make them only useful if you stack in hp(useless for healers) and they have engulfing flame for more damage support. If you would give also the other classes some thing interesting the raid lead would have to make a decision what healer combo would be the best.
Yes nerfing templer was the easy solution but also the one that dumbed down the game by a lot. And created the problems like the lack of synergies in raids.
They merged 4 different synergies into one and want is even worse they completely destroyed the group play function of having different obs in the group to give your group the best sustain and they gave back resources not only to the person that used it. MAKE ORBS GREAT AGAIN

You can not compare the pet heal to breath of life. The pet needs 2 spots, can die(most of the time it will die out of bad luck at times when you need it the most), bugs out and can't be used in some fights (Also the smart heal of pets is not so "smart").

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Btw templer are still the only class that can give mag dds stam back per synergy. .

I think this is false... ENERGY ORBS give back MAG on synergy, and ELEMENTAL DRAIN provides MAG as they attack.

Orbs only give back your max resources and there are some situation where you like to have as mag dd some stam return. It also gave mag tanks harder time (yes they are almost dead but still).
While active, an ally can activate the Holy Shards synergy, restoring 3960 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is higher. They also restore an additional 1980 Magicka or Stamina, whichever maximum is lower.

Fair enuff... *gets out WARDEN STAM HEALER* LOL! It's interesting, for build diversity , it'd be nice if we saw other skills able to emulate this unique function. I don't think it would put TEMPLARs out of business, just give the player base more options/flavour.

Ashtaris · February 2018

I’ve never seen anyone kicked just because they were not a Templar healer, but I have seen them kicked because they did a terrible job of healing. One time we picked up a Nightblade healer and she was so bad she was kicked after the first boss. But to tell you the truth, I’ve rarely seen a Templar healer kicked from the group. That tells you something right there. Even if they do make mistakes, they can still do a pretty good job of healing.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

An exciting topic from almost a year ago. How new and fresh.

More on topic, yes all the classes are slowly becoming the same. It is up to each person to decide if they see this as a good thing or not.

Except for the fact that this is false.

It's like making taunt exclusive to DK, and then when people say give other classes taunt back, tell them that giving them taunt back will make all clases become the same.

Which is false? The changes you are thanking them for came out in morrowind. That was June 6. 8 months ago. Close enough for me to feel that almost a year isn’t crazy talk.

That classes aren’t slowly becoming the same? This very thank you thread is based around a change to make classes more similar so one would not be favored over the others. I mean you can make up all the phony examples you want, it Is kind of cute I guess, but it doesn’t change what was done, and how.

Or that people shouldn’t decide for themselves? I don’t really have a counter for that because of that is your arguement, this is pointless.

You can agree or disagree, with the changes. You obviously agree with them, For what many would say are very valid reasons. But that doesn’t make what I wrote false.

1) The change came out 8 months ago but we are seeing the positive results and we are going to see even more in the future. Explained in the thread.

2) "yes all the classes are slowly becoming the same" is a false statment. Just because a freaking DK can be accepted as a healer doesn't mean the playstyle of a DK healer is similar to the playstyle of a Templar healer. I wrote a whole paragraph about it, refer to the 2nd paragraph. Templar's monopoly of the healer role is no fun. Non-competitive PvE is becoming more and more diverse, and with that, more fun.

You may disagree with the change, but you can't deny the positive impact it has on non-competitive PvE content.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Ashtaris wrote: »

I’ve never seen anyone kicked just because they were not a Templar healer, but I have seen them kicked because they did a terrible job of healing. One time we picked up a Nightblade healer and she was so bad she was kicked after the first boss. But to tell you the truth, I’ve rarely seen a Templar healer kicked from the group. That tells you something right there. Even if they do make mistakes, they can still do a pretty good job of healing.

The strength of Templar healer is that it is easy to play, straight forward, and extremely efficient, any braindead person can just spam BOL to victory. Non-Templar healers on the other hand, are not easy to play, each class has to be played differently to be effective.

You haven't seen anyone kicked because they were not a Templar healer, but it doesn't mean non-Templar healers were generally accepted. Many of them just gave up on LFG tool/zonechat and prefered to play with friends and guildies.

Feanor · February 2018

You may disagree with the change, but you can't refuse the positive impact it has on non-competitive PvE content.

Of course, the funny thing is a naked Nord DK could successfully heal in non-competitive PvE content, before and after the changes. It wasn’t necessary to trash a whole class just to achieve that.

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

Feanor wrote: »

You may disagree with the change, but you can't refuse the positive impact it has on non-competitive PvE content.

Of course, the funny thing is a naked Nord DK could successfully heal in non-competitive PvE content, before and after the changes. It wasn’t necessary to trash a whole class just to achieve that.

LOL it has never been a problem if non-Templar healers could or could not heal in non-competitive PvE content, the problem was that non-Templar healers were not generally accepted to even do pledges HM by the majority of players.
Their main argument was that non-Templar healers could not provide stamina support to the group and that was true. Could a non-Templar healer do non-competitive PvE content if he was given the chance? He could, but he had to put a lot more efforts than Templar healers. He had to grind master restro just to has a chance to compete against Templar healers who didn't have a master restro. Now the gap is much closer, you still need to put in slightly more time and effort, but you don't need a master restro to compete against a Templar healer who doesn't have a master restro anymore, and people are more likely to accept you than they used to be.

"Trash a whole class", hold up, after "Templar healers being trashed", Templar is still the best class at healing objectively, and still dominates the number of healers both casually and competitively, and still dominates the leaderboard. That makes zero sense LOL.

I have an idea, let's just make taunt exclusive to DK, and when someone wants to give taunt back to other classes, just cry "YOU ARE TRASHING THE DK CLASS BY GIVING TAUNT TO OTHER CLASSES".
Yeah that's basically your argument.

xaraan · February 2018

Well, about the only part of this that's true is that because a streamer is putting out some different build types it will encourage others to try 'non-meta' roles. Anyone that really knows the game already knew you could run pledges and trials with any role mixtures, but most of it comes from players not knowing (or not having the time to know) any better and just going with what's safe or what a streamer says to try.

Sure, some of the top groups in the game that do vHM speed run no death in half the time the next best team can do something will push the meta, but if you are just doing the content, even vHM clears, you don't need to be the meta build for that extra .1% difference to get the job done. You do not need DK tank, nor do you need templar healers, and you didn't before the MW patch. Our trials/dungeon raid group might not be posting 'world first' clears on stuff, but everyone in the group plays the class and role they want, and we get the job done and it's always been that way.

So the OP's post is mostly just about bad players not knowing any better and listening to whatever they've been told by someone that knows how to click upload on youtube or by someone that they might know in game and not really about the game or balance itself. It is good to see Alcast pushing some alternative builds for this reason, but as another poster said, the builds aren't perfect, and I say that not to criticize him, but to tell those using them as a guide to realize they can modify and change things up as needed and not treat it as gospel. (He often says much the same in his vids - they are guides, not bibles)

hmsdragonfly · February 2018

xaraan wrote: »

Well, about the only part of this that's true is that because a streamer is putting out some different build types it will encourage others to try 'non-meta' roles. Anyone that really knows the game already knew you could run pledges and trials with any role mixtures, but most of it comes from players not knowing (or not having the time to know) any better and just going with what's safe or what a streamer says to try.

Sure, some of the top groups in the game that do vHM speed run no death in half the time the next best team can do something will push the meta, but if you are just doing the content, even vHM clears, you don't need to be the meta build for that extra .1% difference to get the job done. You do not need DK tank, nor do you need templar healers, and you didn't before the MW patch. Our trials/dungeon raid group might not be posting 'world first' clears on stuff, but everyone in the group plays the class and role they want, and we get the job done and it's always been that way.

So the OP's post is mostly just about bad players not knowing any better and listening to whatever they've been told by someone that knows how to click upload on youtube or by someone that they might know in game and not really about the game or balance itself. It is good to see Alcast pushing some alternative builds for this reason, but as another poster said, the builds aren't perfect, and I say that not to criticize him, but to tell those using them as a guide to realize they can modify and change things up as needed and not treat it as gospel. (He often says much the same in his vids - they are guides, not bibles)

It has never been a problem if non-Templar healers could or could not heal in non-competitive PvE content, the problem was that non-Templar healers were not generally accepted to even do pledges HM by the majority of players. Their main argument was that non-Templar healers could not provide stamina support to the group and that was true. Could a non-Templar healer do non-competitive PvE content if he was given the chance? He could, but he had to put a lot more efforts than Templar healers. He had to grind master restro just to has a chance to compete against Templar healers who didn't have a master restro. Now the gap is much closer, you still need to put in slightly more time and effort, but not as much as before, you don't need a master restro to compete against a Templar healer who doesn't have a master restro anymore, and people are more likely to accept you than they used to be.

xaraan · February 2018

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Well, about the only part of this that's true is that because a streamer is putting out some different build types it will encourage others to try 'non-meta' roles. Anyone that really knows the game already knew you could run pledges and trials with any role mixtures, but most of it comes from players not knowing (or not having the time to know) any better and just going with what's safe or what a streamer says to try.

Sure, some of the top groups in the game that do vHM speed run no death in half the time the next best team can do something will push the meta, but if you are just doing the content, even vHM clears, you don't need to be the meta build for that extra .1% difference to get the job done. You do not need DK tank, nor do you need templar healers, and you didn't before the MW patch. Our trials/dungeon raid group might not be posting 'world first' clears on stuff, but everyone in the group plays the class and role they want, and we get the job done and it's always been that way.

So the OP's post is mostly just about bad players not knowing any better and listening to whatever they've been told by someone that knows how to click upload on youtube or by someone that they might know in game and not really about the game or balance itself. It is good to see Alcast pushing some alternative builds for this reason, but as another poster said, the builds aren't perfect, and I say that not to criticize him, but to tell those using them as a guide to realize they can modify and change things up as needed and not treat it as gospel. (He often says much the same in his vids - they are guides, not bibles)

It has never been a problem if non-Templar healers could or could not heal in non-competitive PvE content, the problem was that non-Templar healers were not generally accepted to even do pledges HM by the majority of players. Their main argument was that non-Templar healers could not provide stamina support to the group and that was true. Could a non-Templar healer do non-competitive PvE content if he was given the chance? He could, but he had to put a lot more efforts than Templar healers. He had to grind master restro just to has a chance to compete against Templar healers who didn't have a master restro. Now the gap is much closer, you still need to put in slightly more time and effort, but not as much as before, you don't need a master restro to compete against a Templar healer who doesn't have a master restro anymore, and people are more likely to accept you than they used to be.

I'm not talking about non competitive PvE. We do end game vHM trials and dungeons.