ZOS, please detox this game a little bit. Show other people's CP up to a maximum of 160!

Feanor · February 2018

I don’t think hiding CP past 160 would solve a thing. Then people will just go back to demanding linked achievements.

Runschei · February 2018

No thank you. Let elites be elites and casuals be casuals.

MajorasMask73 · February 2018

How about this for an idea if you play a dungeon with a player that is 400cp below you, you get an increased reward (whatever this reward is can be debated)

This would make the dungeon more challenging as elite players would have to carry some players but by doing so you are also being rewarded and gives the lower CP player a chance to learn the mechanics and gain experience of the dungeons for when they eventually level up

Of course you can still then kick if you just can't work it but it might make people think twice before kicking if they want the reward

Just an idea

JJBoomer · February 2018

I love how people keep forgetting the main issue. If people keep getting kicked, how are they supposed to learn dungeon mechanics? Reading about how a dungeon works is only going to help so much. Hands on experience is the most valuable kind.

I personally have learned most of the dungeons in this game by going in with no idea and learning as I did. But if people are getting kicked based on their CP and they are there to learn and wanting to be useful, shouldn't that more valuable? See this is what makes groups such a toxic environment. I mean yes, you will ALWAYS get your bad apples that want to be carried. That is going to be an eternal problem, so trying to stop that is honestly a waste of time. But should low CP, DPS, whatever, players who want to get better be punished because of that? Creating an environment of exclusion like this though, is only going to exacerbate problems in the long run. It always does with games that face these issues.

I would not have learned a single dungeon in this game, had it not been for people who ran with me when I knew jack ***.

So as far as the OP's suggestion goes, I agree. Remove the ability to pre-judge players based on numbers and actually start giving people a chance to play the game. And for the want-to-be-carried's, yeah it's annoying, let;'s get over it. This is after all, at the end of the day, just a game that has no real world value and doesn't affect life once the screen is off lol.

Cously · February 2018

I disagree on hiding CP levels, if anything it should show all the CP the player has. I disagree on kick low levels as well, at least until after the first boss depending on their performance/attitude to listen mechanics explanation :P Also I believe ZOS should do something to lower the gap between new players and old as numbers are concerned. "Veteran" status should be based on experience running the content and skills developed playing the class. Like it is now you can be super wonder kid with awesome finger clicking skills but you won't really see any good results until you grind to X CP, that is wrong and has to change. Conversely you can have a million CP and spent all your time in the game roleplaying, getting into the dungeon and having no idea what to do!

TL;DR: Lack or presence of CP doesn't really say everything about a player skill in the game. ZOS have to get out of the way of how player relationships are deal with and remove pointless artificial ceilings (skilled player with low CP). Emphasis should be on raid awareness and mechanic experience instead of numbers.

Septimus_Magna · February 2018

Low CP is not always the problem but it does give some understanding why dmg is low or someone doesnt know the mechanics. If someone is CP300+ they get the full resource scaling so dmg should be decent.

I have no problem with low CP players as long as they do the research, know their class and the dungeon mechanics. When I PUG with my DD I have no problem in explaining/carrying but with my tank its often impossible.

Its not just low CP but also a lack of class knowledge and no understanding of dungeon mechanics.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

High or low, the problem isn't CP.

The problem is people not knowing how to play, not willing to listen, and not being personally capable of clearing certain content in a reasonable amount of time.

As mentioned in many other threads, low CP doesn't mean incapable any more than high CP means capable.

I've ran across awesome and awful players on both ends.

Low CP does generally mean newer and potentially less experienced players, simply in terms of time. So, while the odds may not always go down with a low CP players, they will generally go up with a higher CP player.

Some content, or some aspects of content (No Death/Hard Mode/Speed Run) do require a certain group ability level. It's equally not unreasonable that people LFG'ing for those specific things (you mentioned they're giving detail as to what the group intention is) are able to request them.

You can still do, or at least try to do whatever it is you wish within the boundaries of the game, you'll just have to group up with others willing to assist or others of a similar level.

Hiding or showing CP, gear score, achievements, or anything else won't matter.

Come first pull, first mechanic, or first boss fight, it's going to become painfully obvious, in a hurry, whether you or anyone else knows what they're doing.

crjs1 · February 2018

I agree 100%

xbobx · February 2018

Getern wrote: »

Bring back Veteran Ranks. Make the game great again!!!

Cut that casual BS already.

its that casual stuff that keeps the game going.

Hardcore gamers are in the minority. They should be ignored. Think of it as a intervention to reevaluate their life and realize what is really important.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

xbobx wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

Bring back Veteran Ranks. Make the game great again!!!

Cut that casual BS already.

its that casual stuff that keeps the game going.

Hardcore gamers are in the minority. They should be ignored. Think of it as a intervention to reevaluate their life and realize what is really important.

Lol, you realize there's a lot of grey area in between, right?

Who has more IRL time for the "really important" stuff, the hardcore that clears content in 30 minutes, or the casual that spends 3 hours beating their collective heads against the wall?

Perhaps aspire to be something more in the middle?

SydneyGrey · February 2018

As a healer, I appreciate being able to see people's CP levels, because it gives me a clue as to who is going to need healing the most. If I'm in a dungeon with a level 690 and a level 42, guess who is going to need my services more?

I'd never vote to kick someone just because they're low CP, because if you do group finder, you're going to get people who are low CP. That's just how it is. If people only want to play with high CP players, then they need to find a good dungeon guild and not do group finder.

I can't stand people who use group finder, and then whine about getting put in with low CPs. Um, you used group finder. What did you expect?

Delimber · February 2018

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

Delimber wrote: »

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

You mean, "Normals?"

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

Me right now reading the back and forth on this post...

(Insert old LOL button)

duendology · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Who has more IRL time for the "really important" stuff, the hardcore that clears content in 30 minutes, or the casual that spends 3 hours beating their collective heads against the wall?

That's your argument? What does it matter if someone clears content in 30 minutes if they spend daily a few hours (up to 15 hours!) in game in general doing e.g trial after trial after trial, even though they had done this or that content already like zillion times? (I know such players, quite a few, actually)
Some players spend countless hours in game whereas others only two or three or less. The experience of "how quickly I can devour this cake" has nothing to do with it.

Delimber · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Delimber wrote: »

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

You mean, "Normals?"

Nope, vet without CP,

We have a non-CP PVP campaign, so lets jump off the deep end and make vet non-CP dungeons....

On a serious note, I don't envy any new players to the game with the CP cap so high and only going to increase with more updates on the way.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

duendology wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Who has more IRL time for the "really important" stuff, the hardcore that clears content in 30 minutes, or the casual that spends 3 hours beating their collective heads against the wall?

That's your argument? What does it matter if someone clears content in 30 minutes if they spend daily a few hours (up to 15 hours!) in game in general doing e.g trial after trial after trial, even though they had done this or that content already like zillion times? (I know such players, quite a few, actually)
Some players spend countless hours in game whereas others only two or three or less. The experience of "how quickly I can devour this cake" has nothing to do with it.

No, it's an absurd counterargument to the absurd post above implying "hard core" gamers should be ignored and are deemed to have no life or concept of life importance.

To put it another absurd way, it's the difference between:

Person A "Hard Core" : Being able to eat the cake in 90 seconds, setting some kind of record.
Person B "Somewhere in the middle" : Being able to eat the cake in a reasonable amount and enjoy it in the process.
Person C "The casual that 'keeps the game going'" : Never being able to eat the cake because you're incapable of opening the box the cake comes in, yet you'll keep trying 5x longer than person A and two times longer than person B.

So I ask, again, which of the people above ends up having more IRL time each time a cake is brought to the table?

EDIT: If we're considering "keeping the game going" in terms of income, I suppose the bakery would be fine with people in category "C" continuing to buy unopened cake boxes, so long as they get paid. A good bakery would have room for all three types.

EDIT of EDIT: Here's what a lot of people don't realize about the above three categorizations:

Person A is able to pay their bills, do what needs to be done, and have time for all IRL "important stuff."
Person B is able to pay their bills, do what needs to be done, and have time for all IRL "important stuff."
Person C is able to pay their bills, do what needs to be done, and have time for all IRL "important stuff."

Does that help highlight the difference?

LordSemaj · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Delimber wrote: »

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

You mean, "Normals?"

People were doing even Veteran dungeons before CP ever existed. All the way up to VR16. Which now is like CP 160.

Yeah, you only need CP 160 for veteran content. Kicks still happen because your damage sucks. Considering Endless Hail alone is like 20% of a stamina user's dps, bad damage is a sign of a bad player. You can field okay damage with a crafted Hunding's Rage and Agility jewelry with a monster set and whatever weapons you want. If people can't even with better sets than that, they're not worth bringing along until they practice on easier content or spend a few hours beating up a dummy until their rotation is mere muscle memory.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

Delimber wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Delimber wrote: »

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

You mean, "Normals?"

Nope, vet without CP,

We have a non-CP PVP campaign, so lets jump off the deep end and make vet non-CP dungeons....

On a serious note, I don't envy any new players to the game with the CP cap so high and only going to increase with more updates on the way.

3000g gold respec x 4 (or fewer) people...then Vet away?

Why does this need to be a specific option on the GF?

LordSemaj wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Delimber wrote: »

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

You mean, "Normals?"

People were doing even Veteran dungeons before CP ever existed. All the way up to VR16. Which now is like CP 160.

Yeah, you only need CP 160 for veteran content. Kicks still happen because your damage sucks. Considering Endless Hail alone is like 20% of a stamina user's dps, bad damage is a sign of a bad player. You can field okay damage with a crafted Hunding's Rage and Agility jewelry with a monster set and whatever weapons you want. If people can't even with better sets than that, they're not worth bringing along until they practice on easier content or spend a few hours beating up a dummy until their rotation is mere muscle memory.

Poster makes comment suggesting no CP dungeons.
Other poster counters with reminders about VR ranks before CP, citing current CP equivalent...?

Delimber · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Delimber wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Delimber wrote: »

Alright, crazy concept, Non-CP dungeons, you're welcome.

You mean, "Normals?"

Nope, vet without CP,

We have a non-CP PVP campaign, so lets jump off the deep end and make vet non-CP dungeons....

On a serious note, I don't envy any new players to the game with the CP cap so high and only going to increase with more updates on the way.

3000g gold respec x 4 (or fewer) people...then Vet away?

Why does this need to be a specific option on the GF?

Guess humor is lost. Moving on.

lardvader · February 2018

Might be wrong here but I seem to remember ppl asking for the number of CP when vet ranks existed as well.

I'm fine either way if it says cp 160 as max or the actual number. I never kick just based on cp. I never pug dlc dungeons either

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

Apologies, @Delimber , it's hard to tell the serious from the sarcastic/satire sometimes.

LordSemaj · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

[*] Poster makes comment suggesting no CP dungeons.
[*] Other poster counters with reminders about VR ranks before CP, citing current CP equivalent...?

* Poster points out that CP 160 is the highest gear level, which used to be VR16
* Other poster fails to understand the obvious

Mureel · February 2018

So other people who practised and learned their roles get to carry people or flat out wipe because some people want to swan into content they don't know and just be a big pain in the backside for the rest?

How about no.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

Other poster understand just fine. If you don't think there is typically a tremendous difference in between a CP160 (having the gear cap) and a max CP player in certain content, then I'm not the one missing the point.

LordSemaj · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Other poster understand just fine. If you don't think there is typically a tremendous difference in between a CP160 (having the gear cap) and a max CP player in certain content, then I'm not the one missing the point.

Yes, you are missing the point. Of course there's a difference between them. That difference shouldn't matter. Vet content was already completed without a max CP player. It was the norm and the every day standard and we STILL did our daily pledges just fine. The only content one should struggle with is the kind released post CP addition, i.e. DLC dungeons.

LadyNalcarya · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

To put it another absurd way, it's the difference between:
Person A "Hard Core" : Being able to eat the cake in 90 seconds, setting some kind of record.

Person B "Somewhere in the middle" : Being able to eat the cake in a reasonable amount and enjoy it in the process.

Person C "The casual that 'keeps the game going'" : Never being able to eat the cake because you're incapable of opening the box the cake comes in, yet you'll keep trying 5x longer than person A and two times longer than person B.

So. Much. This.
People like to exaggerate, but actually there's not that many "extremely hardcore players with no life at all" or "exreme casuals that are almost illiterate and cannot remember what their skills do".
I would say that the way some people describe "casual majority that rules the game" is quite offensive. Its almost like they imply that people who just play casually are less capable that 4 year olds or something. And thats somehow a good thing?

jaws343 · February 2018

JJBoomer wrote: »

I love how people keep forgetting the main issue. If people keep getting kicked, how are they supposed to learn dungeon mechanics? Reading about how a dungeon works is only going to help so much. Hands on experience is the most valuable kind.

Normal dungeons should be used to learn. If people are kicking low CP players from normal, non-dlc dungeons, are those even the players you want to try to play/learn with? They probably need a carry more than you.

Vet dungeons are not for learning. And CP definitely makes a difference in survivability and the amount of damage you can possibly do.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

I think it needs to take a different direction.
It’s along the idea of what you, and many others are saying however done in a much cleaner way

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/394284/wouldn-t-an-effective-color-based-character-level-make-more-sense-than-cp-or-level-1-49#latest

Above is the link to my idea.
While you will never resolve “people being people” there are opportunities for a much better way of showing relevant information.

I think our personal indicators are effective but how others interpret this is the issue and offers opportunity.

VaranisArano · February 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

I love how people keep forgetting the main issue. If people keep getting kicked, how are they supposed to learn dungeon mechanics? Reading about how a dungeon works is only going to help so much. Hands on experience is the most valuable kind.

Normal dungeons should be used to learn. If people are kicking low CP players from normal, non-dlc dungeons, are those even the players you want to try to play/learn with? They probably need a carry more than you.

Vet dungeons are not for learning. And CP definitely makes a difference in survivability and the amount of damage you can possibly do.

And this is why I tank Vet Dungeons with my friends first. You see, when it comes to learning to tank, part of moving from normal to vet dungeons is figuring out "So, which of these boss effects will actually kill me?"

Mind you, that's with a fully geared tank prepped for vet dungeons. But for people who learn from experiencing (hands-on is more effective for some people than all the youtube guides in the world, sorry), a normal dungeon isn't going to teach a tank that Selene's bear is a one-shot if you don't block. Dying to that on Vet will - and in my case, learning that due to my lag, I has to block ASAP when I see those lines for the attack because lag means a slow block is too late - and that's learning from experience.

If you've got a properly geared group support tank that's ready to move onto vet dungeons like I did, there was very little in the normal dungeons that actually endangered my tank. I could ignore most mechanics on normal. Not so on Vet! So for me, the first few times I run a Vet dungeon on my tank is an exercise in figuring out which mechanics I can still safely ignore, which mechanics I need to respect, and which mechanics I need to respect or die. Then there's the dungeons where there are specific tactics for the tank that aren't needed in normal difficulty because the bosses are quickly burned down.

You say Vet Dungeons aren't for learning. I agree that you don't want a Vet Dungeon to be the first time you see a particular mechanic. However, there definitely is a learning curve to doing Vet Dungeons. I think the learning curve is steeper if you were good at your role in normal dungeons like my tank because then you've learned to burn through mechanics on normal that you now have to respect on Vet. For me, running dungeons on Vet is more like re-learning them and un-learning bad habits from normal difficulty.