kargen27 wrote: »

DPS on a dummy doesn't even measure your DPS in any meaningful way. It is just some arbitrary number and there are builds designed specifically to hit huge DPS on a dummy that are not viable to any other part of the game.

More or less arbitrary to damage ouput than CP? We could describe the meaning of life in less than meaningful ways while still being relevant.

kargen27 wrote: »

This idea does not fix any problem in the game and most certainly would create a new one. A DPS parse is no more useful than a CP check and you want both to exist. People that ask for CP requirements are not going to stop. They will simply add yet another requirement.

But of course it doesn't fix a problem, not to the level you're meandering about. But then when do people actually fix a problem with finality? Even a repair of a broken device isn't final, it will simply break again. And yet we try and progress and make attempts to come closer to our goal. I disagree that it creates more problems. The chief problem that exists is the determination of damage output which presently is being based on something that grows ever more meaningless the higher up your points go due to diminishing returns.

kargen27 wrote: »

We are not saying the CP check is good or even relevant we are saying a DPS would also be bad and just as irrelevant. This would just bring more grief to the game.

If you truly believe that then we are at an impasse. For I already see grief all around as far as the eye can see, heavy-handed and unilateral, with all the carelessness and and injustice any arbitrary metric brings. Such things would improve if these judgements had a less arbitrary target, and while not being perfect in its nature, it's far from hollow. As mentioned, there are a variety of ways to curb the exploitation of such a device by ensuring it's only measured on the proper targets with the proper group support as opposed to Precursor parsing.

I should stress once again that all of this is actually beneficial to others. It means we're not wasting everyone's time by entering the dungeon, seeing the damage on the first few mobs or boss, and then abandoning the group or proceeding with kick votes which all merely delays the clear in the first place. The person kicked has wasted their time grouping, possibly a lot of time if looking for members took a while. The people who judged the damage insufficient too will have wasted their own time with the attempt. Whether arbitrary or accurate, all measurements strive to reduce this excess of time wastage for all parties involved. Some of you sound like you enjoy wasting your time thoroughly and have ample, if not limitless, supplies of it to find a group that meets the criteria.

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

I got 150k dps once on a mudcrab in fungal grotto 1.

this is the sort of thing this title will reward. which personally i am all for. death to the mudcrabs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cute though incorrect!

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

"The Penetrator" "The Annihilator"

Sound like what my wife nicknamed her friends. Just missing the "Intimidator"

This actually gave me a laugh. Thank you sir.

Diminish wrote: »

I can see it now... "LF 1 DPS for vet Spindleclutch (because why not), must have 690 CP, The Penetrator title, and a big d... esire to complete the dungeon."

People already demand "30k+ DPS" in the most absurd situations that don't warrant anything near that to be able to complete the content. If you want to brag about your 40k+ DPS that you barely sustained on your 3m target dummy that never moved or fought back, take yourself to YouTube'ing and streaming.

I like how you think not having the tools to measure it will stop them demanding it. All that will change is how it is measured, in a less certain and more random manner, like watching you kill some trash mobs on your own.

DPS parsers didn't exist in every game. They require mod or log support to allow them in the first place and when a game is new people have no tools to use. That doesn't stop people from the kicking the DPS who is putting out "too low numbers" based on what they read in combat logs or simply by how quickly the enemy's health is dropping. What it does do is place the criteria into the hands of the person's perceptions and leave you to hope they are a good judge of them. Exacting measures are always preferred to arbitrary guesses.

kargen27 wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Fun thing about DPS on a dummy is you just get to stand there. And yes people who just stand in front of the dummy do sometimes just stand in front of the boss. They may know the mechanics well but they get into their perfect rotation and they die.

Indeed! However those asking for CP requirements are already not asking "can you survive?" but rather whether you have the tools necessary to clear the dungeon. I'm not sure why you or anyone else feels that a DPS test is meant to tell whether you can survive or not. It's not, something not attacking you cannot tell such a thing so it's foolish to expect it to. It's purely meant to measure what it states -- your DPS. Which is an element of the successful completion of many dungeons. Obviously not the sole element but currently the element people are using to measure your capabilities is one of time investment. What does that say for how likely you are to survive either?

Never imagine that a DPS test measures your worth as a player. It only measures what the requester wishes to know. How much damage you are capable of putting out in a certain period of time. We expect our tanks to be able to take a hit, not to show up with 18k health and die to the first swing. We expect our healers to be able to keep players on their feet. We expect similar things of our DPS players, something that currently is being examined in a worse way.

DPS on a dummy doesn't even measure your DPS in any meaningful way. It is just some arbitrary number and there are builds designed specifically to hit huge DPS on a dummy that are not viable to any other part of the game. There was even a build that took advantage of the dummy being confined to a small space providing circumstances that you are not going to see anywhere else in the game. Sad thing is people are already being asked to post numbers before they are allowed to join groups for trials. This idea does not fix any problem in the game and most certainly would create a new one. A DPS parse is no more useful than a CP check and you want both to exist. People that ask for CP requirements are not going to stop. They will simply add yet another requirement.

We are not saying the CP check is good or even relevant we are saying a DPS would also be bad and just as irrelevant. This would just bring more grief to the game.

A DPS parse is much more useful than a CP check.

I don't care if you cheesed your 30 or 40k DPS parse but if you can't even post a cheesed 20k parse then don't join a vet trial.

kargen27 wrote: »

" It means we're not wasting everyone's time by entering the dungeon, seeing the damage on the first few mobs or boss, and then abandoning the group or proceeding with kick votes which all merely delays the clear in the first place. "

I think this one statement gets to the heart of the problem and may explain why we are on opposite sides of this issue.

I was farming jewelry for a build I want to try last night so was using group finder on my healer. In one group we had one DPS that thought he was joining a normal dungeon and not a vet dungeon. Was his first time in the dungeon. He offered to leave but queues being what they are I suggested we go to the first boss then decide. He was a bit squishy and our tank took the time to give him some advice to fix that. We explained the mechanics as needed and finished the dungeon.

So this is where we differ and why we disagree. I don't think going to the first boss is a waste of time. If nothing else the player can learn from the experience and that will benefit the next group he joins. Saying no you can't go helps no one. I think another arbitrary (and it is arbitrary) hurdle to join a group would be detrimental to the game. I don't want to spend an extra 10 minutes in the dungeon is a terrible attitude to have and this idea would help support that attitude.

The other caveat is that, contrary to popular belief, some people prefer DPS who can stay alive long enough to actually damage enemies. Everyone will be trying to get some unnecessarily high DPS parse on a static object just to ensure their acceptance by others, and then lie face down for 50% of the boss encounters. Give me a solid 15k-20k DPS DD with survive-ability over some 40k DPS glass cannon DD any day for most content in this game and I'd be content. This game is not all about how fast something dies. Sure it helps if you can burn things down quick, but to use such criteria to judge ones ability to complete content is about as far fetched as you can get because high DPS parses =/= ability to complete content better.

kargen27 wrote: »

Yeah because someone that equips gear they will never wear in a dungeon and does a rotation they can never pull off even with just a trash mob is much much better than the player that does an honest parse and knows the mechanics of the dungeon.

Both checks are useless and simply a way for players to somehow feel they are elite.

Once again, this has nothing to do with elitism, the worth of a player, or the governance of honesty. If someone can complete a rotation using whatever gear they fancy it means they were capable of doing that much. DPS metrics are themselves always in a bubble, not to be expected as reliable in a real circumstance but still independently valuable and always taken under ideal circumstances. If someone cannot pull off any sort of DPS check under ideal circumstances, they certainly cannot under less than ideal ones.

It should warrant repeating that DPS measures have existed for as long as MMOs have. They are a tool, nothing more, one that provides results that speak for themselves and say nothing of survival tendencies or knowledge of mechanics or the likelihood of a group wipe. People have measured them in all manners for ages despite not always having the association of real combat circumstances. The numbers are preferred over whatever random test someone comes up with on the spot. Not having accurate measures doesn't stop people from kicking or leaving, it just causes the times they do to be less consistent.

Diminish wrote: »

The other caveat is that, contrary to popular belief, some people prefer DPS who can stay alive long enough to actually damage enemies. Everyone will be trying to get some unnecessarily high DPS parse on a static object just to ensure their acceptance by others, and then lie face down for 50% of the boss encounters. Give me a solid 15k-20k DPS DD with survive-ability over some 40k DPS glass cannon DD any day for most content in this game and I'd be content. This game is not all about how fast something dies. Sure it helps if you can burn things down quick, but to use such criteria to judge ones ability to complete content is about as far fetched as you can get because high DPS parses =/= ability to complete content better.

Now you're comparing apples to oranges and failing to read the topic as this was already addressed multiple times. People who use a DPS check to check the criteria of someone's survival are doing it wrong. That's not what a DPS check is for. It measures DPS, nothing more or less. If anyone cared for or wanted to use the criteria of survival for your groups, there are already ample methods of proving competence in that area. Such a thing is not what this topic is about and grossly off subject. You can use total achievement points for all I care but if the metric is DPS then currently CP is most reliable source, and that's simply silly given that it's a measure of time and not capability.

You actually argue this as though you believe that by fighting against it, you can stop it from becoming reality. But it's already the reality. It's merely one you turn your eyes away from and deny in the dark while it continues to be used ineffectively to exclude people inconsistently.

LordSemaj wrote: »

I should stress once again that all of this is actually beneficial to others. It means we're not wasting everyone's time by entering the dungeon, seeing the damage on the first few mobs or boss, and then abandoning the group or proceeding with kick votes which all merely delays the clear in the first place. The person kicked has wasted their time grouping, possibly a lot of time if looking for members took a while. The people who judged the damage insufficient too will have wasted their own time with the attempt. Whether arbitrary or accurate, all measurements strive to reduce this excess of time wastage for all parties involved. Some of you sound like you enjoy wasting your time thoroughly and have ample, if not limitless, supplies of it to find a group that meets the criteria.

Then maybe you should run dungeons with only people you know and don't pug.
If you want to speed run dungeons then do it with friends.

Stuff like this only promotes elitism.

idk wrote: »

Is way no.

Dummy Parsees are rather worthless as raw numbers go outside of a baseline comparison. Having achievements based on dps whisk just standing there is rather empty. The player might be good at pressing buttons but is dead most if the time in trials.

In other words the titles would be a joke.

And yet every major trials guild requires them. For the baseline comparison. Which the achievements fulfill as well.

In other words the titles provide an in-game access to something that's already wanted.

LordSemaj wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Is way no.

Dummy Parsees are rather worthless as raw numbers go outside of a baseline comparison. Having achievements based on dps whisk just standing there is rather empty. The player might be good at pressing buttons but is dead most if the time in trials.

In other words the titles would be a joke.

And yet every major trials guild requires them. For the baseline comparison. Which the achievements fulfill as well.

In other words the titles provide an in-game access to something that's already wanted.

A trials guild is hardly a comparison for a pug dungeon group.

Baconfat79 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tell a new player, "no, you need to buy a house, then grind for vouchers, and then finally make a dummy, with all these mats, before you can progress?" That's a lot of exclusions.

Actually, you can get both a house and a target dummy for absolutely free, no writ vouchers, crafting skills, or materials needed.

Inn room is free when you read the housing brochure, and Precursor target dummy is free from a quest in Clockwork City.

Amusingly, I shuffle my precursor around my Daggerfall Overlook on a semi-regular basis. Mostly just to mess with anyone who wanders through (and some people do).

Runefang wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

But the problem remains that CP is completely disconnected from a player's ability to perform.

Which is precisely why I feel we need a better measure.

This, I can agree with. The problem is that this kind of an achievement would not achieve that goal. Again, even if you can perfectly tune to get the result you wanted, it would not effectively filter actual effectiveness. Because of how achievements can be linked, it would result in that small, annoying, cadre of wannabe elitists getting even more toxic. That's my problem here. Not the idea of coming up with a better metric; that this solution would be far more detrimental than beneficial. Measuring raw DPS is not indicative of someone's ability to clear endgame content, trust me, I know. I was, literally, dealing with that issue from a group member 16 hours ago.

Who said it would measure anything except DPS? The most often used reason these exclusions happen is because of DPS expectations. 300+ means all the stats are present, gear is likely setted out, a rotation sufficiently mastered. There's no way a 300 CP has done every vet dungeon and trial to understand the mechanics unless they played before CP existed. You're getting wrapped up in the idea of this somehow being a measure of player worth when it's purely a measure of DPS potential. Nothing more. Anyone who uses it as a tool for more than that is deluding themselves. It provides exactly what I expect, a measure of DPS.

Generally these things exist purely because of the enemy of us all: TIME. It's abundantly clear if your DPS is bad once the actual dungeon starts, believe me. But players would rather reduce the amount of time wasted kicking and testing players when simply putting the requirements up front would have been quicker. We're not here to judge whether they can or cannot, should or should not. They will, they absolutely will. I'm merely looking for a better measure that isn't as arbitrary as CP.

Pretty much, I don't want to take 30 minutes to run a dungeon that should take 15 minutes.

I didn't want to get stuck in vICP the other night for 3 hours, but sometimes you just need to go through the motions, and see what's shaking.

No thx. Bad idea. You can already see the elitism in here that people will have you to do 20k DPS.
I have done all Vet dungeons in the game and is just above 10k on my best toon.

So it can be done without anyone carrying you and without any other real hardcore players with a lot less dps then some think is a "Must have"

This elitism ruins the game for many people because some people set up rules they think is good.
Pugs are for everybody if you like special rules make your own group. And to encourage the game to be even more elitism.

But but i want to get carried with my 10k dps heavy armor bow/bow build through all dungeons.

It is always funny to see how many players are here and saying it would promote elitism but the reality is that you will more likely get a spot in a group if you could prove that you have some kind of idea of what you are doing. The whole point of lfg groups asking for cp is because it is more likely that a max cp player knows how to dps than a low cp player. A dps achievement would be a lot fairer.

Also yes dps on a dummy does not mean you will also perform so well in a real fight, but if you can not even perform well on a dummy fight how the hell should you do well in a real fight. Even if you would cheese the dummy phrase i would at least know that you have a basic understanding of the game since it is not so easy to cheese a dummy phrase without knowing how the game works.

LordSemaj wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

" It means we're not wasting everyone's time by entering the dungeon, seeing the damage on the first few mobs or boss, and then abandoning the group or proceeding with kick votes which all merely delays the clear in the first place. "

I think this one statement gets to the heart of the problem and may explain why we are on opposite sides of this issue.

I was farming jewelry for a build I want to try last night so was using group finder on my healer. In one group we had one DPS that thought he was joining a normal dungeon and not a vet dungeon. Was his first time in the dungeon. He offered to leave but queues being what they are I suggested we go to the first boss then decide. He was a bit squishy and our tank took the time to give him some advice to fix that. We explained the mechanics as needed and finished the dungeon.

So this is where we differ and why we disagree. I don't think going to the first boss is a waste of time. If nothing else the player can learn from the experience and that will benefit the next group he joins. Saying no you can't go helps no one. I think another arbitrary (and it is arbitrary) hurdle to join a group would be detrimental to the game. I don't want to spend an extra 10 minutes in the dungeon is a terrible attitude to have and this idea would help support that attitude.

Okay, now for once, try to understand someone else's position beyond your own. You're describing a situation where you and the group did not care about a low CP or low damage player who needed to learn the mechanics. You are not someone who would be affected by any of this in the first place. You are not looking for people of a particular DPS level nor were you running content that you could not make up the difference in. You are quite literally not in the group of players that do as you quoted, the ones that would kick or abandon after witnessing the results. So you're not actually providing any input here because nothing changes with your removal from the pool as you've removed yourself with or without them. People will STILL make judgements regarding damage, they'll merely do it with worse information. This will continue to lead to kick votes and drama and wasted time all around. If anything, securing better information diminishes all of that before it ever begins.

I get that you didn't care one way or the other. But that characteristic is specifically what excludes your story from being relevant. When it doesn't matter either way, it was never going to be affected by having or not having a DPS check of any sort.

No they will are not doing it with worse information now. A DPS parse is as useless as a CP check. My play style doesn't change that. I actually am thinking of others with my opinion on adding yet another roadblock to getting into a group. If this is put in place we will see in zone chat "looking for group for AA run, must have XXX CP and XX DPS." That makes it harder for people to join the group and that is not good for the game. I have friends that run speed and no death runs that get bored to tears even thinking of stepping in front of a dummy. They could get excluded because they didn't spend time beating on some dummy to reach some silly number that has zero indication of how they may or may not fair in a delve or dungeon.

This is simply a very bad idea. The only thing it does is give those who think they are elite another meaningless number to use to define to themselves how elite they think they are. That is it and nothing more. An arbitrary measuring stick.